Your Dumbest Theory

[John Biles]

Mostal can be dead and alive at once in the sense of doing things because he is the World Machine.  Machines can act without being alive.  So when he swats you for being too real-world rational, that's one of his programmed actions.  Eventually, when the Dwarves fully fix him, he'll have the full flexibility of living things, but that hasn't come yet.

Zistor was basically a patent violation of Mostal/The World Machine, which is why Dwarves hated it and had to destroy it.

 

[Eff]

4 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

The above is just a little riff that is probably going nowhere. We have gotten used to:

• prayer-powered gods (the tail wagging the dog)
• stories conformable to our wills for fun and bloody profit (consensus reality)

But aren’t there powerful things no one is feeding POW to out there in the deep end of what was supposed to be subjective reality — nightmares that are no one’s dreams, whose untold stories would stubbornly refuse to be re-written — things so inimical and alien that not even the most self-tortured “chaos fiend” could dream them up or even see them clearly?

 

Why would there be? Einstein's too assimilated to break the fragile brain of a cartoonishly, affectedly bigoted closeted homosexual from Rhode Island nowadays. 

[scott-martin]

13 minutes ago, Eff said:

Why would there be? Einstein's too assimilated to break the fragile brain of a cartoonishly, affectedly bigoted closeted homosexual from Rhode Island nowadays. 

People talking trash about my mother in law, show some respect, her brain is not fragile. The last time I was in Rhode Island she showed me Berkeley's house and that place was a dump.

But yes, the powerful things out there are not our problem because they belong to the other game. In here we interact with the younger and more anthropomorphic gods who are equipped and interested in interacting with us.

[mfbrandi]

8 hours ago, Eff said:

Why would there be?

It is funny, I was going to give a couple of examples of what the scary things might be — an inkwell, a cigar box with one hinge missing — but in the end I thought it best not. Gloranthans are very much capable of dreaming up Lovecraftian horrors and have already done it, no? Tentacles, ooze, and chaotic features for chaotic creatures.

For pop-culture Berkeley, I had in mind a story a clearly eccentric primary school teacher read to us back in the day. Turns out it was this (by Murray Leinster — Swanwick gives the TL;DR here).

As for queer HPL, I enjoyed La Farge’s The Night Ocean, but mostly for its hilarious turn from Bill Burroughs.

[radmonger]

In the rq2 era, there was Cults of Prax, a anthropological study of the religiously-themed Rune Magic-granting organisations of one local region.

In rq3 there was Gods of Glorantha, which echoed the Godlearners eponymous claim; that study of successful local magical practices could be used to infer globally-usable truths.

Now we have Cults of RuneQuest. This has the wider scope of the second, covering anywhere you might plausibly want to set a gloranthan campaign. But it avoids making the claim that sufficient study of cults will tell you everything you need to know about gods.

 

 

[Ormi Phengaria]

15 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

That is possibly — only possibly — the most unGloranthan thing ever said: it has not been dreamed, told, seen, or inscribed, but nonetheless it is. Be careful on your heroquest: you know all the story variations, but the unknown unknowns are lurking out there and keen to impale you on spikes of objective reality.

On the contrary, it's perhaps the most Gloranthan sentiment one could come into alignment with. The world-view (self-awareness?) of the Goddess Herself! Subjective is not solipsistic. Trees fall in forests with no observers other than themselves; the spirits of the dead wood and the wind and the sound and the indentation in the earth all dissolve into Time as ephemera. The moment was never eternal, outside of itself. Our ability to speculate on the moment's nature might allow us to infer the formal episteme behind its meaning, but that doesn't make the moment real. Or unreal. We just have ourselves, things that are not ourselves, and the bridge between, which is perspective.

[Ormi Phengaria]

2 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Gloranthans are very much capable of dreaming up Lovecraftian horrors and have already done it, no? Tentacles, ooze, and chaotic features for chaotic creatures.

If I remember right, I was once derided for raising the possibility of seriously contemplating the inner life of gorp. As it is on earth, human beings have denied the subjective depth of other humans, the very possibility of minds in animals (combining both in more than a century of dismissiveness towards Charles Henry Turner), and are today making panicked-yet-so-delicate semantic equivocations when presented with the idea of plant consciousness. Maybe we'll follow process-animism down into the mineral kingdom one day.

What this reminds me of is a commonly encountered guideline: "don't anthropomorphize your subjects." This may seem almost like a kind of reverence at first. Of course we shouldn't collapse everything into the human experience and umwelt! But what it really means is "don't erase the distinctions we still measure ourselves by". The mud and the slime, thick and heavy waters teeming with too much life, are said to be without life, pools of Mallia. No soil to be tilled, no cooling respite, and occupied in struggle those who have been driven into them over many millennia. Filled with monsters.

Do they have subjectivity?

[jajagappa]

11 minutes ago, Ormi Phengaria said:

are today making panicked-yet-so-delicate semantic equivocations when presented with the idea of plant consciousness

Don't forget the fungi! (Everyone always overlooks them...)

15 minutes ago, Ormi Phengaria said:

"don't anthropomorphize your subjects."

We could collapse the experience into that of Ducks instead (is that "anatomorphize"?).

It's one reason the studies of trolls, elves, and dwarfs are useful - helps shifts the perspective out of the human. As for gorp - might be much like investigating the world of cellular life (bacterial colonies, etc.).

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, Ormi Phengaria said:

As it is on earth, human beings have denied the subjective depth of other humans, the very possibility of minds in animals

I think the usual trick is to think up some impossible criterion and then say that the animal couldn’t possibly meet it — never mind that we couldn’t ourselves.

But what was it Auntie L said? — “I am not of the opinion that he has a soul.” (PI, p. 178) — The mistake may be embarking on the quest to find the right height to set the bar.

[Akhôrahil]

Surely in Glorantha, philosophy turns out a bit differently when items like souls, lies and do on are empirical and objectively measurable using magic?

[Joerg]

6 hours ago, jajagappa said:

We could collapse the experience into that of Ducks instead (is that "anatomorphize"?).

Going by the systematic name for the species of the Durulz (antatanthropus Donaldi, and how weird that this is not anatanthropus Howardi?), it is "anatantrhopomorphize".

[mfbrandi]

22 hours ago, Ormi Phengaria said:

Filled with monsters. Do they have subjectivity?

Are “monsters” people, too? Sure, I am a paid-up member of that club.

I wasn’t fretting at whether monsters had minds but at what was — in some sense to be discussed by the group (tea and biscuits in the interval) — merely a creature of the mind (something with only subjective reality) and what had independent existence (objective reality). There must be at least these balls in the air:

• The universe is sustained by the mind of god: god — the subject of experience — is objectively real, but anything else you might care to mention is just an idea in the mind of god, has mere subjective reality. Only through union with the mind of god can one become truly (objectively) real — say some of this crowd, others say that to presume one can ever become objectively real is heresy. Lewis Carroll was a fan of the IG, and there must be some Malkioni heretics who’ll go for something like this (not to mention some of the more esoteric Krarshtites).
   
• The Gods War and its denizens are sustained by the minds of mortals: we flip the script on the previous position and what was the “higher reality” — the divine — is now our creature, and the reality of the Gods War, of myth, is subjective. As of the Guide, this may have been canon, but @radmonger’s comment above suggests (nothing stronger) that this may be softened — I guess the Mythology book is the one to watch for. Argrath as the little terror — if he doesn’t like something, he’ll make it go away.
   
• The cosmos might have existed without minds, and the stuff that might have made up that world is what makes up ours. My thinking of something adds no furniture to the universe. Perhaps we can put this as all reality is objective, and perhaps some Maker factions will go for it — they like a good schism. Cue endless and convoluted exegesis of the esoteric meaning of “Mostal is dead.” (See also — off at a tangent — Picnic on Paradise.)
   
• Luckily for you, I exist only as an idea in my own mind, and if I perfect my austerities or answer the right riddles, I will forget myself and so cease to be. (To the tune of “Nothing ever was, anyway”.) All reality is subjective. One for the Illusion jockeys among the Void cultists.

If we were to treat these constructs as piñatas, I don’t suppose any of them would survive many blows, but perhaps they might motivate Gloranthan theological disputes (i.e. release some sweeties). I can see various Gloranthan mystics taking at least three of the positions above — no prizes for guessing which — or possibly one mystic flitting between them depending on the quality of their last cup of coffee.

Edited August 13, 2023 by mfbrandi
punctuation

[mfbrandi]

A little bit of Chaos philosophy:

Quote

If you have a design problem in your game … Removing rules is how you achieve elegance. Same thing in life, in my opinion … If you’re facing a problem … take a step back and think about what you can take away to solve it rather than what you can add. You may be surprised at where you end up.
— Geoff Engelstein, GameTek

Edited August 13, 2023 by mfbrandi
whitespace

[DrGoth]

22 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

A little bit of Chaos philosophy:

Worked for the Lunars - take away the Sartar royal family, problem solved 😉

[metcalph]

Halfhalodos the Nonwise (the Founder of the Temple of United Eurmal) was persuaded by some of his subjects to buy some Zistorite Prayer Wheels going cheap  that could be trained to generate gibberish which when feed to his subjects would reverse their insanity.

Unfortunately the first bit of gibberish only made them say something so profoundly blasphemous that the Cosmos immediately destroyed the God Learners.

[mfbrandi]

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

Zistorite Prayer Wheels … say something so profoundly blasphemous that the Cosmos immediately destroyed the God Learners.

Perhaps their function is to utter the 9 billion names of the Invisible God — after which, the IG folds up the cosmos till it is needed again. If they were meant to play at 16 RPM, you can bet the Eurmali had them at 78, so you can see why the little pseudo-gods would want to put a stop to that: they weren’t yet done with their pocket universe.

[scott-martin]

Vormain and Brithos never coexist in the middle world at the same time.

[Nick Brooke]

The Vadeli Isles and Brithos likewise. Unless they’re the same place, of course, but I’m sure we covered that earlier.

[scott-martin]

28 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

The Vadeli Isles and Brithos likewise. Unless they’re the same place, of course, but I’m sure we covered that earlier.

Perhaps a more refined and yet dumber version:

The western otherworld can only support Vadel or Brithos but not both. The eastern otherworld can only support Vithela or Vormain but not both. The Luathan intervention in the west was mirrored by a land rising in the east.

Alternatively, the eastern otherworld is the sum of the western parts plus time:

VITHELA + BARDO = VADELA + BRITHO
DA(N)MALASTAN - ALAS = ADAMANT 

[jajagappa]

23 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

ADAMANT 

Speaking of adamant, did you catch this fun little factoid in the Lightbringers book? 

Orlanth also took other treasures from the corpse [of Aroka]. He took the sinews from the right side of its spine, which were red, and from the left, which were black. He took the tooth that can scar adamant. 

 

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Perhaps a more refined and yet dumber version:
The western otherworld can only support Vadel or Brithos but not both.

Less refined and dumberer — as good empiricists, sorcerers have razored away all otherworlds.

[I am more than usually haunted by the Godlearners as the R&D department of the British Empire, today, and it seems to have bled over the West in general.]

[Akhôrahil]

On 8/13/2023 at 1:17 PM, mfbrandi said:

A little bit of Chaos philosophy:

Also how Rokar treated the Abiding Book - take away stuff until you’re happy with what remains.

(Similarly, Marcin of Sinope was said to have edited the Bible ”with a scalpel”.)

[mfbrandi]

Although the IG = Ompalam thing was surely an unwarranted dig at Islam, here is a report on the Catholic-leaning Simone Weil:

• There is no denying that The Need for Roots is quite strange … The tone is dogmatic, and the last third of the text offers a theological metaphysics of matter which would surely have baffled the officials of the Free French, had they ever received it. Weil attempts to show that there is no conflict between religion and science, since science explains the behaviour of matter, and matter is, for Weil, ultimately explainable as obedience to God: ‘The universe is nothing but perfect obedience,’ she concludes.

  — Toril Moi, I came with a sword

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Although the IG = Ompalam thing was surely an unwarranted dig at Islam,

As I can make out from Greg's comments on his own spirituality, the dig may have been at Roman Catholicism, as that was what he was breaking away from at the time. Only through his pursuit of shamanism in Mexico Greg made his personal peace with that creed, when one of his teachers there took him to the church.

If you want to see a dig at Islam there, it might be your preconceptions that get challenged. Or problems with the family of monotheistic world religions in general.

Ompalam offers some parallels to the Book of Job. (But then, I am more comfortable with the Apocalypse than I am with the Book of Job, and I don't care for those pitch and brimstone preachers or Adventism at all.)

The one redeeming feature of the upcoming cataclysmic escalation that is the Hero Wars is that these cataclysms are cyclical, escaping immediate annihilation asymptotically, while offering a way out through transcendence, even if that way may become harder and harder. While Glorantha exists in some form, Godtime persists. And the End of Time might be Time slowing down.

[mfbrandi]

39 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Humakt isn’t remotely about even fights, though. Cutting down poorly armed peasants (while claiming it’s dishonourable for them to gang up on you) is perfectly alright.

Well, I don’t know about that. The Humakti leader is no stategos looking for advantage, rather they seek the fight they cannot win — “Forward, the Light Brigade! Charge for the guns!”

Humakt is a tricky god to make sense of. In the Cults of Prax “classic” edition, we have this (pp. 32 and following):

• Humakt … is the god of mercenaries and soldiers, and can be found on all sides in any conflict. He encourages honour and courage, and disdains pointless slaughter. He keeps the road to Hell well-populated by honourable warriors … Zorak Zoran considers Humakt to be effeminate and squeamish … A cult member will never be called back from the dead in  any way … Humakt Rune Lords are sought out as leaders of doomed ventures and defenders of indefensible positions … Rune Lords are rarely known for subtlety, for their way is that of straightforward confrontation. Their style is not that of the general, but of the hero … He must personify honour and fair combat in his every deed, upholding the meek and protecting the oppressed. He must never turn his back on a fair fight in a good cause and never break a sworn vow.

Tricky, but perhaps not impossible. Perhaps Humakt’s plan is this: encourage an honour code in soldiers and mercenaries which will get as many of them killed as possible. How does this fit with disdaining pointless slaughter? There are possibilities:

• killing honourable warriors is not pointless: he is gathering them to himself as part of a creepy plan — the dishonourable ones he doesn’t need, so they may live a bit longer (or if “killed,” return to life);
• mercenaries and soldiers are the chief perpetrators of pointless slaughter, so hamstring them with honour and point them at ludicrously dangerous situations — well-armed windmills — to take them out of the game;
• if the honourable are dead, the field of battle is left to practically minded cowards, liars, and cheats who will do anything to avoid a fight — all fights are pointless slaughter.

Note that Humakt is found on all sides of any conflict — we are all killed by Death — but that is not to say that the members of his Monty Pythonish suicide cult — the Humakti — are found on all sides.

But what of the rune for such a devious god? Again, possibilities:

• honour isn’t Truth, it is a crutch: just look at it;
• Humakt is True Death (real, genuine, authentic death), and the Humakti don’t come back in any way — “the valiant never taste of death but once, the chumps!” — so Hell is filling with honourable warriors, while cowards and cheats are reincarnated;
• his followers are committed, faithful, staunch, unshakeable, and unwavering thanks to his promotion of those virtues — that is enough to secure the runic association without His Illuminated Gloominess himself being quite so moronically guileless. (Arkat–Gbaji wasn’t named “Humaktsson” for nothing.)

[The sword broos may disagree with much of this, but they are always fun to debate.]