He, Zzabur, did what?

[HreshtIronBorne]

I have been reading through the Guide and fell into a Rabbit Hole. I have been trying to get a little bit better understanding of the Malkioni view on the Gods War. From what I have found it sounds like Zzabur attributes to himself almost every world changing event during the Gods War. He shattered Glorantha/the Spike, wove the Web, and a bunch more stuff. 

 

I am trying to reconcile how these views fit together. I don't prescribe to a mono-mythic interpretation of Gloranthan lore. I think there is plenty of room for EVERYONE to be right. 

 

Any places to look for more info on Zzabur and all the stuff attributed to him would be cool. Thanks for your assistance. 

[Minlister]

The Stafford's Library Books Revealed Mythologies and The Middle Sea Empire seem the best place to begin the various SAN rolls.

[Nick Brooke]

It's possible Zzabur is an arrogant prick who takes credit for setting forces in motion even if he wasn't obviously involved. I mean, you've spoken to Zzaburi, right? Apple doesn't fall far.

[scott-martin]

22 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

I am trying to reconcile how these views fit together. I don't prescribe to a mono-mythic interpretation of Gloranthan lore. I think there is plenty of room for EVERYONE to be right. 

He lies all the time.

[jajagappa]

24 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

I have been reading through the Guide and fell into a Rabbit Hole.

More like getting sucked down Magasta's Pool or falling into the Hell Crack. 😉

16 minutes ago, Minlister said:

The Stafford's Library Books Revealed Mythologies and The Middle Sea Empire seem the best place to begin the various SAN rolls.

Also add in the Glorantha Sourcebook (search on Zzabur) and the Stafford Library Book Arcane Lore.

That'll probably get you most of the relevant and available material, and give a good test of your SAN while you're at it.

[dumuzid]

36 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

He lies all the time.

Is it really a 'lie' if it's told to mere products of the Paseren?

[Eff]

Well, anyone who contributed to the Web was essential to it, for the Web wouldn't be the Web without their contribution. So our friend the Wicked Hydrophobe of the West can fairly claim credit there even as Dronar and Menena probably were the "weavers" from the Kingdom of Logic. 

As for what He, Zzabur had to do with the Spike exploding... Well, let us remember that the Malkioni are logical. If Zzabur cast a spell that led to the events that caused the Spike to explode, then he was the prime mover of the Spike's explosion, as a nearly ultimate cause. It is probably not a good idea to inquire as to what this spell was or what it was intended to do, however. 

[M Helsdon]

Many events, before and during Time, have multiple causes: often potent magics by disparate groups, that either combine together or are 'coincidental' in generating major world-changing effects. Each group, of course, knows they were solely responsible, even if this isn't really true. So Zzabur certainly did do some significant acts, but many of the greatest he claims, were not his alone.

Edited August 28, 2020 by M Helsdon

[Sir_Godspeed]

31 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Many events, before and during Time, have mutual causes: often potent magics by disparate groups, that either combine together or are 'coincidental' in generating major world-changing effects. Each group, of course, knows they were solely responsible, even if this isn't really true. So Zzabur certainly did do some significant acts, but many of the greatest he claims, were not his alone.

Yeah, causality during the God Time is pluralistic, as it were. 

Zzabur is probably right in that he did it. He would, however, be wrong if he claimed that others didn't do it.

[HreshtIronBorne]

I did not know that Zzabur showed up in Arcane Lore. I think i just picked that one up. I will have to look through it. Middle Sea Empire I have never seen. 

Gotta go get the rest of the Stafford Library.

 

15 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

48 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Many events, before and during Time, have mutual causes: often potent magics by disparate groups, that either combine together or are 'coincidental' in generating major world-changing effects. Each group, of course, knows they were solely responsible, even if this isn't really true. So Zzabur certainly did do some significant acts, but many of the greatest he claims, were not his alone.

Yeah, causality during the God Time is pluralistic, as it were. 

Zzabur is probably right in that he did it. He would, however, be wrong if he claimed that others didn't do it.

This was pretty much my line of thought. He, Zzabur likes to talk a big game and take a helluva lot of credit. I also figure the Brithini and Malkioni in general are going to be SUPER LITERAL, to the point of probably being no-fun-fuddy-duddies, can't go breaking caste and becoming all mortal and stuff. Blegh. 

[M Helsdon]

1 hour ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

This was pretty much my line of thought. He, Zzabur likes to talk a big game and take a helluva lot of credit. I also figure the Brithini and Malkioni in general are going to be SUPER LITERAL, to the point of probably being no-fun-fuddy-duddies, can't go breaking caste and becoming all mortal and stuff. Blegh. 

The Brithini are going to be rational, logical, and in the case of sorcerers very egotistical, Zzabur most of all; as one of the Original Beings, he may embody the Magic Rune.

The Malkioni are far more... human, in part because in the Great Darkness those on the mainland had to break their caste laws; most who didn't (except those of Arolanit and a few scattered enclaves) did not survive to see the Dawn. 

The Brithini are not Malkioni, because Malkion himself broke his own Laws when he left the Tower of Intellect and entered gross matter in an attempt to save his people. Zzabur rejects him.

The Malkioni are now human, of numerous different cultures and beliefs, and even those like the Rokari who strive to return to the ways of the Brithini, are very different from their ancient ancestors. The Brithini view all the Malkioni on the mainland as erratic, short-lived deeply flawed creatures. Most Malkioni have fun, even those of the Rokari religion. [Have attempted to go into this in my most recent non-canonical Jonstown Compendium offering.]

Arcane Lore, whilst very interesting, has to be read with care, as it is collection of various concepts and ideas, many of which aren't part of Gloranthan canon.

Revealed Mythology is more useful.

Edited August 28, 2020 by M Helsdon

[Jeff]

Some God Learners concluded that Zzabur was just an anthropomorphic representation of rational thought and of the ability to reduce the cosmos to intelligible parts. Anything that is subject to rational thought is thus Zzabur or a deed of Zzabur. 

[Minlister]

And that's why Zzabur is banned from all RPG forums!