Ethilrist

[Erol of Backford]

White Horse Troop - are there stats for the white horses? I assume they were of the stronger faster more intelligent variant than the standard ones? I'd suggest that the Pure Horse People's war-horses were also along similar lines?

Possibly PC's venture to Muse Roost to purchase some of these horses? I know we spoke to it when I was wondering about Clydesdale's for the Agimori PC's in the Backford thread but don't mind revisiting.

I am sure one of you will say the black horse ate the white horse but I am sure they were to beautiful for Ethilrist to simply let them all expire especially when they would be a great source of income for him?

I could see gold and blue banners snapping in the wind, sparkling in the morning sun atop the troop's lance (we have better than wooden block type stirrups don't we?)

Thoughts on this?

[jajagappa]

42 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

White Horse Troop - are there stats for the white horses? I assume they were of the stronger faster more intelligent variant than the standard ones?

Ethilrist was from Ralios, so just standard Ralian horse breed.

42 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Possibly PC's venture to Muse Roost to purchase some of these horses?

They do not exist any more.  When Ethilrist entered Hell, he led the White Horse Troop.  When he exited, he led the Black Horse Troop.  Possibly he sacrificed them to gain the Black Horse Demons as he allies.

44 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

I am sure they were to beautiful for Ethilrist to simply let them all expire especially when they would be a great source of income for him?

Ethilrist was after the spoils of Hell.  If he had to sacrifice the White Horse (which I fully believe he did) to gain those spoils, then he did.  He is VERY mercenary in that regard.

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Where are these "fragments" besides the one where they made pumpkin pie?

The carving of Hungry Jack appears in the RQ Companion.  

The other available fragment is the one at the end of the Guide v.2 regarding his interaction with Phargentes/Red Emperor.

The list of the volumes he composed is there as well.  No other fragments exist.

[davecake]

On 1/9/2023 at 6:39 AM, Erol of Backford said:

White Horse Troop - are there stats for the white horses? I assume they were of the stronger faster more intelligent variant than the standard ones? I'd suggest that the Pure Horse People's war-horses were also along similar lines?

I would think more like the Western destriers, big horses able to carry heavy armoured warriors, and allegedly descended from the ancient steeds of Danmalastan, than Grazer steeds which have a different origin and are not as big (but are fast, and the best are intelligent, and magical )

[davecake]

FWIW, I agree that Ethrist knows a way out of Hell that is different to Resurrection, discovered through Heroquest, and that many other heroes, including Arkat, Argrath, Talor, Harrell, Jar-Eel also have similar methods. And yes, this means they are what Xeotam calls a Kaelith - their physical body is essentially created by magic after that, and some (not all) such heroes learn to leave their body like a shaman, or  shapechange, as a result. Heroes are tricky. 
Resurrect, on the other hand, is less powerful, and can not rescue a soul from the deep underworld, and does not create a new body but return you to the old one. When you are a hero yourself and killing another hero and want them to stay dead, you don’t just kill them and assume thy aren’t coming back after a week. Hell, you don’t even assume that of a half way good shaman. 

[Erol of Backford]

14 hours ago, davecake said:

Hell, you don’t even assume that of a half way good shaman. 

So you destroy Ethilrist's body after you kill him, as an example, what else can you do to keep them dead?

[HreshtIronBorne]

51 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

So you destroy Ethilrist's body after you kill him, as an example, what else can you do to keep them dead?

As far as RAW, the easiest way is you can bind his spirit right after you kill him if you have a shaman handy, or other specialist in manipulating soul energies. A spirit capturing crystal or binding enchantment would be handy when fighting heroic individuals.

If you are a heroquestor yourself you may be able to follow his soul into hell or guide it to a specific place where he DOESN'T know the way out anymore.

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

So you destroy Ethilrist's body after you kill him, as an example, what else can you do to keep them dead?

Just read about what Arkat did with Gbaji, or what happened with Tada leaving the Three Grisly Portions.  Divide them up into multiple parts and then destroy each in a different way, in a different place.  And in the meantime, ensure their soul is trapped in a Hell that you control (e.g. Sheng's soul is imprisoned in a Lunar Hell).  One of the pluses about Jajagappa's cult is that he can summon Hell Hounds to rip your body into multiple pieces (different hounds eating different choice bits) and then dragging your soul off to Hell in his net.  Gagarth's Wild Hunt can likely be used in a similar manner.

[davecake]

The other possibility for the White Horse troop would be that the6 are associated with Galana, the Ralian Sun Horse goddess, though the horses associated with her are generally golden not white. 

[Erol of Backford]

6 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

If you are a heroquestor yourself you may be able to follow his soul into hell or guide it to a specific place where he DOESN'T know the way out anymore.

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Gagarth's Wild Hunt can likely be used in a similar manner.

I like the idea but there are places possibly much more better I think. Place the spirit in the crystal in the worm or get out your asbestos gloves and stuff it down a void hole at your friendly neighborhood festering void hole? if their spirits are gone in the chaos void they cannot be saved... but then again if they are a hero with a large H maybe they come back from the void nastier than we every dreamed they could? An antihero with a large H? Wouldn't that be fun!

Spoiler

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Erol of Backford

[davecake]

Keeping a Hero dead can be difficult. 

6 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

As far as RAW, the easiest way is you can bind his spirit right after you kill him if you have a shaman handy, or other specialist in manipulating soul energies.

Correct - though as an experienced Hero, Ethilrist is almost certainly pretty formidable in spirit combat too, at the very least a master of spirit combat with a high POW, but probably spirit plane allies, access to useful magic, and probably exotic heroic powers like the equivalent of shamanic abilities, and spirit plane eapons and armour. So easier said than done. And once done, Ethilrists allies will come after you. There are definitely more advanced versions of this technique, eg the minor Lunar deity Holder, who can imprison souls in her jar for up to seven years (eg GS p160). With powerful enough magic, you may even be able to bind the spirit of a defeated foe to work for you (eg as Hwarin Dalthippa did to Gwythar Longwise, or Yara Aranis did to First Slave), though this may be more a thing a hero does to you. 
And bear in mind even according to RAW, some heroic shamans can recover from a killing blow *in a Strike Rank*. It would be quite unsurprising if Heroes like Ethilrist are capable of the same. I suspect you really want to have much more than mere physical weapons to even get them to stay dead - try things like attacking their mind or sanity (Madness or Mind Blast) to prevent them acting, attribute damage (eg Tap, disease, various exotic spells and spirits and weapons and poisons), wounds that resist healing (eg Seal Wound), mind control/compromise etc (Dominate, Fear, etc) for at least long enough to strike, and most such things probably just disable them for long enough for you to try and remove their magical defences and hold off their allies for long enough to try a real finishing move, like capturing their spirit. Often all you can manage is to hit them in a way that causes them to leave the field, like a bad Seal Wound injury or a Mind Blast, especially if their allies are still active. 
 

I think that there may be some means of tying a hero, even a kaelith, to their body, such that then chopping it up and seaparating it prevents them returning until it is united, as was done to Nysalor. But I don’t know much about, other than it seems to be a way of seriously disposing of the very magical. Even this is probably not enough to prevent return via Lightbringers Quest.

Other methods of disposing of a hero are feeding them to dragons or Chaos monsters, but this is often inviting an even worse problem. It did pretty devastatingly eliminate many heroes over the centuries. 

6 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

If you are a heroquestor yourself you may be able to follow his soul into hell or guide it to a specific place where he DOESN'T know the way out anymore.

True, and lying in wait for them in a vulnerable place in the heroplane as Jar-Eel did to Belintar. 
You don’t even need to Heroquest yourself - Fazzur got his magicians to open a gateway to Lunar hell, and tossed Hofstaring Treelaper in there directly. 
 

It’s also worth noting that not all heroes can return from the underworld in this way. A well known example is Rastalulf of the Vanak Spear - though he has literally been to the underworld and returned before, when he is killed by Lokomayadons men, he does not return, probably because of the doom he accepts from Alaramsor when he accepts the Vanak Spear, and instead Alaramsor retrieves the spear. 

Very common example might be Humakti, who I think would often regard this as violating their oath. An Illuminated Humakti could do it, though I can think only of Arkat and Yanafals Tarnils in this category, and they might still regard it as dishonourable. 

[davecake]

3 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Place the spirit in the crystal in the worm or get out your asbestos gloves and stuff it down a void hole at your friendly neighborhood festering void hole?

Well, if you are a dishonourable ally of Chaos, sure. And willing to risk a close encounter with Chaos yourself.
There are multiple foreseeable bad outcomes from this course of action. But you do you.

A more likely, but equivalent, case would be a Lunar feeding it to the Bat. Or a Thed worshipper opening a Chaos void. But these are the acts of a villain. Not to say you can’t, or even shouldn’t - but the story consequences may be large. 

[soltakss]

On 1/8/2023 at 7:45 PM, Erol of Backford said:

From GTG: A fragment of the unfinished 13th volume of A History of My Black Horse Troop, attributed to Ethilrist of Muse Roost, one of the more notorious Heroes of that Age. Where are these "fragments" besides the one where they made pumpkin pie?

Doesn't My History of the Black Horse Troop run to twenty volumes, or something?

I always assumed that there might be one volume-worth of useful information and 19 volumes of "Look at me, see how great I am, see what wonderful things I did".

[Erol of Backford]

Where is the useful stuff!?

When did he get the Black Horses? Was it after 1600?

What were some adventures with the white horses and what are the adventure seeds there assuming YGMV would allow the PC's to work for him and get some cool strong intelligent white horses.

I am not sure the black horses eating meat and dead victims sounds like righteous and chivalrous player characters. Besides the black horse don't fly and the PC's will end up getting hippogriffs or griffins eventually and or the ability to fly magically on their own.

Who needs demon horses that will eat your head? Cool yes but troublesome most definitely for the local populations who's stable boy gets eaten by your mount?

Will the Pavis stable that takes exotics take black horse anyway?

19 hours ago, davecake said:

With powerful enough magic, you may even be able to bind the spirit of a defeated foe to work for you (eg as Hwarin Dalthippa did to Gwythar Longwise, or Yara Aranis did to First Slave), though this may be more a thing a hero does to you. 

There is the bear clan guy with a white cloak that looks like a bear skin...

19 hours ago, davecake said:

Often all you can manage is to hit them in a way that causes them to leave the field, like a bad Seal Wound injury or a Mind Blast, especially if their allies are still active. 
 

Decapitation works for this doesn't it or maybe the old garrote and head on the belt trick does wonders for binding spirits though the bear god bound into his skin is impressive.

What would it be like to bind Ethilrist into his own skin and a person of smaller size wear it as a onesie? Gloranthian imagery all the way...

 

Edited January 12, 2023 by Erol of Backford

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

When did he get the Black Horses? Was it after 1600?

In Hell - it's part of his traversal and harrowing of the Underworld.  Before his return to the living.  He arrives in the Lunar Empire somewhere roughly around 1560 (if I remember the approximate events), serves the Red Emperor for something like 25-30 years, and then receives Black Horse County, I think around 1585-90.

2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

What were some adventures with the white horses

Unknown.  This would be Ralian or Manirian history from somewhere in the period 1400-1500+.

2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I am not sure the black horses eating meat and dead victims sounds like righteous and chivalrous player characters.

They aren't.  They are Demons of Hell.

 

[Erol of Backford]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

I am not sure the black horses eating meat and dead victims sounds like righteous and chivalrous player characters.

Was being a bit sarcastic... having fun with the idea that the Aeolians are righteous and pious like Author's knights. They will do the right thing and join the fight against the vile chaos Lunars.

[Erol of Backford]

Interesting note on the Hound - presume this would be a Doom Run?  (I.e. Ethilrist will lose the Hound for some period of time until he can regain it - so this is going to come with a high price tag for his services.)

Are there sources for the Hound - Doom Run?

[Joerg]

21 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Interesting note on the Hound - presume this would be a Doom Run?  (I.e. Ethilrist will lose the Hound for some period of time until he can regain it - so this is going to come with a high price tag for his services.)

Are there sources for the Hound - Doom Run?

The usual course for the Hound being released on a Doom Run is that it leaves the board before either Ethilrist or Keener Than can capture it. Ethilrist has a move of 7 without the Hound, Keener Than has a move of 10 like the Hound, but both need to respect Zones of Control which the released Hound ignores. Without a few lucky random changes of course over subsequent turns, there is no chance that Ethilrist can catch up with the Hound after releasing it on a Doom Run.

There are no historical reports about Ethilrist releasing the Hound in battle. It is a pretty nuclear option without much of a chance to regain it easily (other than returning to the Hell where he found the Hound), so it may be safe to assume that he has not released the Hound with any witnesses to report such an event. (Or a release of the Cloak of Darkness.)

In the Dragon Pass board game, Ethilrist riding the Hound creates a stack with a CF of 16 with room for two more full units to participate in battle and receive to CF each from Ethilrist's leadership, which adds up to 30 if he brings two black horse cavalry. That's pretty impressive. Argrath with his three melee bodyguard units at CF6 and two dragontooth warriors fields a CF of 33 for three full units plus three hero/individual units, which is pretty good. A superhero plus best friend plus three full units of CF 6 plus 3CF each from the combined leadership adds up to CF 51, and that's pretty much as good as it gets, usually.

The Hound outside of a Doom Run is worth half an army. On a doom run, it leaves no survivors, until it returns to Hell.

[Erol of Backford]

I don't know the story but why didn't Ethilrist release the hound on the White Bear when Muse Roost was attacked? Is there more on the goblins, are they like orcs on Griffin Island or are the hell spawn? Maybe they are just dwarves that work for Ethilrist and are a bit nasty. Lastly what is the Red Gryphon Inn, is it like the Vulgar Unicorn? Has anyone done any maps of Black Horse County? Could Muse Roost be like Sanctuary without the wharfs?

[jajagappa]

49 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

I don't know the story but why didn't Ethilrist release the hound on the White Bear when Muse Roost was attacked?

He might have. Maybe Harrek shrugged it aside? 

50 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Is there more on the goblins, are they like orcs on Griffin Island or are the hell spawn?

There is, but I don't believe available anywhere yet.  Definitely not orcs - more a type of hell spawn.

 

[Erol of Backford]

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

He might have. Maybe Harrek shrugged it aside? 

It'd be nice to see his stats, Ethilrist's and some other characters as they seem so much stronger mythically in our discussions than what I saw in some old D&D conversions in an old zine...

[Joerg]

12 hours ago, jajagappa said:

He might have. Maybe Harrek shrugged it aside? 

Doing so would have rescued up to three units in his stack and force him to make a heroic escape.

In the board game, Ethilrist needs to move into a straight route of hexes pointing toward Harrek's stack. That will force him out of his fortification.

If he decides to make use of terrain plus defensive doubling there, having the Hound's 10+2  quadrupled as the first defensive unit inside Muse Roost means that the attackers need a lucky roll to make it past this first defender. Sacrificing another unit on top of the hound makes that defense even stronger and gives a good chance to eliminate Harrek in regular defense only combat once or twice.

 

12 hours ago, jajagappa said:

There is, but I don't believe available anywhere yet.  Definitely not orcs - more a type of hell spawn.

I seem to recall an article assigning RQ stats to the cloak goblins, but there is nothing intrinsically wrong with using the RQ3 orc stats adapted for whichever version of RQ you are using. Just don't confuse using the stats with using all the other baggage and description that comes with orcs, whether the original Tolkien ones echoed in the RQ3 description, the D&D/Warhammer ones, or the pig-headed Manga/Anime ones.

 

[Erol of Backford]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

I seem to recall an article assigning RQ stats to the cloak goblins

Anyone recall where this was posted? Thank you Mr. B.

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

I seem to recall an article assigning RQ stats to the cloak goblins

There's a goblin writeup with RQ stats in WF #7. However, these are Darkness and Chaos related and do not appear to be the Cloak Goblins.  Somewhere there was a WBRM counter image of the Cloak Goblins, but not sure where that appeared?

Ethilrist primarily appears in WF #1 (most of which appears in RQ Companion).

There's some commentary on Ethilrist and the Hound in WF #2.  In answer to a question about whether the Hound destroys flying units and giants: "The Hound is a great demon of hell, and is kept in its repressed "hound-state" only by Ethilrist's Will. When released, it begins its run home, doubling in size with every bound it takes. By the time it reaches the edge of the world it is the size of creation, whereupon it dives over the rim of the earth into the Underworld. Keeping this in mind it is easier to understand why it can devour anything in its path, except for other beings with an infinite amount of some factor to meet the Hound as an equal. Thus, in this current game, only Superheroes and Dragons may contest the passage of a Hound by battle, and in both cases, they will cancel the demon out at a cost of a Wound or the dragon's life (on normal Dragonfight roll)."

 

 

[Erol of Backford]

Not sure that it is meaningful but Ethilrist met Mr. Auroch in Hell. (from Land of Doom p.17)