sorcery headache: how do you counter steal breath?

[Darius West]

On 12/11/2020 at 9:17 AM, coffeemancer said:

Also, why would Malkioni look down on tapping?

Every sect of Malkionism has strict rules on what is and isn't acceptable in tapping.  The teachings of the Invisible God say that you should love creation, and tapping is the opposite of that, and so it needs to be ethically constrained.  RQ3 had a series of rules about it.

[Kloster]

2 minutes ago, Darius West said:

RQ3 had a series of rules about it.

Completely true. A big part of the problems described in this thread are caused by the fact that RQG does not have equivalent rules (and that RQ3 restrictions don't apply because the game rules are not the same).

[tnli]

So, the Dark Side is enticing and gives the practitioner a bad rep. Nothing new.

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, tnli said:

So, the Dark Side is enticing and gives the practitioner a bad rep. Nothing new.

Completely right, but what is the dark side (for each side)?

[Godlearner]

On 12/29/2020 at 1:35 PM, Kloster said:

Completely true. A big part of the problems described in this thread are caused by the fact that RQG does not have equivalent rules (and that RQ3 restrictions don't apply because the game rules are not the same).

The only reason these are not included are because we do not have the RQG full write up on these traditions. I am sure they are coming. For now just use the RQ3 rules. 

[Kloster]

32 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

The only reason these are not included are because we do not have the RQG full write up on these traditions. I am sure they are coming. For now just use the RQ3 rules. 

Use the RQ3 sorcery rules? No, the RQG ones are far better (even if more complicated).

Use the RQ3 restrictions? No, they don't apply because the rules are not the same.

[Kloster]

34 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

The only reason these are not included are because we do not have the RQG full write up on these traditions. I am sure they are coming.

I'm waiting for them. I am sure they will come.

[PhilHibbs]

56 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Use the RQ3 restrictions? No, they don't apply because the rules are not the same.

The cultural restrictions, such as the rules around Tapping, will be the same because they are world rules, not game system rules.

[Kloster]

43 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

The cultural restrictions, such as the rules around Tapping, will be the same because they are world rules, not game system rules.

What I wanted to say is that the RQ3 prohibition was on tapping people (you couldn't tap anything else, ruleswise). If this is reproduced, that means the only prohibition is on 'Tap Body', the RQG successor of RQ3's 'Tap SIZ'.

[PhilHibbs]

14 hours ago, Kloster said:

What I wanted to say is that the RQ3 prohibition was on tapping people (you couldn't tap anything else, ruleswise). If this is reproduced, that means the only prohibition is on 'Tap Body', the RQG successor of RQ3's 'Tap SIZ'.

It was never a game mechanical prohibition. The evil of tapping derives from the edicts "Do not destroy that which you love" and "Love that which the Invisible God created", so it's not just people. It's all of creation.

[Kloster]

42 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

It was never a game mechanical prohibition. The evil of tapping derives from the edicts "Do not destroy that which you love" and "Love that which the Invisible God created", so it's not just people. It's all of creation.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree. RQ3's tapping is only at tapping people, not air, earth or any non living things. In the various RQ products, the only informations we have on tapping prohibition are that:

- Most Malkioni agree that tapping is evil.

- Brithini may use Tap spells freely.

- Borists may freeely tap chaotic beings.

- Galvosti may tap non-malkioni.

We have nothing special for Vadeli, Hrestoli, Rokari, Wertaegi. We have nothing on non Malkioni sorcerors (Aeolian, Arkati, Lunars, Carmanians, Lhankor Mhy, Mostali,...).

So, 3 described Malkioni sects on 5 can use tapping, even if restrictions. I agree they respect the "Do not destroy that which you love" motto (Galvosti don't love non Malkioni, Borists don't love chaos and Brithini don't love non Brithini), but it does not seem to me they all "Love that which the Invisible God created". And I doubt non Malkioni sorcerors care anything about the Invisible God's teachings. RQG is (for now) Dragon Pass centric, and so Malkion's rules are not (for me) concerning the majority of the sorcerors (God Forgot's Brithini, the rest of Malkonwal Rokari, a few Nochet Malkioni being the more notable exceptions).

By the way, Drain Soul (one of the few non lethal attack of the whole game) wat restricted to Hrestoli and is now open to every sorceror, meaning at least some of the old restrictions have been lifted.

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

"Do not destroy that which you love"

"Love that which the Invisible God created"

By the way, where have you found those lines?

[metcalph]

4 hours ago, Kloster said:

By the way, where have you found those lines?

They are from the How the West was One freeform. I doubt they are part of current Malkionism. 

[Kloster]

30 minutes ago, metcalph said:

They are from the How the West was One freeform.

Thanks for the info. As far as I know, this is not a RQ product.

32 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I doubt they are part of current Malkionism. 

This, I don't know but I believe you. In fact those changes are part of what makes the new supplements needed for us old RQ players.

[Godlearner]

22 hours ago, Kloster said:

Use the RQ3 sorcery rules? No, the RQG ones are far better (even if more complicated).

Use the RQ3 restrictions? No, they don't apply because the rules are not the same.

The restrictions are on the use and what is considered to be a perversion of power, and those do apply no matter the rule system.  

[Kloster]

4 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

The restrictions are on the use and what is considered to be a perversion of power, and those do apply no matter the rule system.  

Please check my previous post. If we apply RQ3's tapping restrictions (GoG p45), Hrestoli and Rokari are not allowed to tap, Brithini, Borists and Galvosti may tap people with restrictions (and we don't know anything about tapping non living things) and we don't know anything for others, especially non malkioni. And the only usage of tap spells in an official RQ product I remember is in 'Griffin Island', which is non Gloranthan.

I will also redirect you to Pete Metcalph's answer:

45 minutes ago, metcalph said:

They are from the How the West was One freeform. I doubt they are part of current Malkionism. 

 

[Godlearner]

1 minute ago, Kloster said:

Please check my previous post. If we apply RQ3's tapping restrictions (GoG p45), Hrestoli and Rokari are not allowed to tap, Brithini, Borists and Galvosti may tap people with restrictions (and we don't know anything about tapping non living things) and we don't know anything for others, especially non malkioni. And the only usage of tap spells in an official RQ product I remember is in 'Griffin Island', which is non Gloranthan.

Sounds like useable frame work until a official material is released

[Kloster]

6 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

"Do not destroy that which you love"

"Love that which the Invisible God created

 

5 hours ago, Kloster said:

By the way, where have you found those lines?

 

51 minutes ago, metcalph said:

They are from the How the West was One freeform. I doubt they are part of current Malkionism. 

By the way: Not RQ and not official, but I like them.

[Kloster]

2 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Sounds like useable frame work until a official material is released

Yes, agreed, it is usable for Brithini, Galvosti and Borists. If we apply this and with current RQG rules, that means Brithini can freely use Tap Body, Borists can only use it versus chaotic beings and Galvosti versus non Malkioni. Hrestoli and Rokari should not be able to use it. We know nothing about it's use by Aeolians, Arkati and Lunars, nor anything about Steal Breath use (because those 2 spells are the only one using Tap technique we know now). As RQG is centered on Dragon Pass, that means we know about nothing on this for the vast majority of the sorcerors covered by the rules.

[Godlearner]

Quote

Aeolians, Arkati and Lunars

This is of course these are my personal opinions.

Aeolians - basically Orlanthi and would not use any Tapping as it is considered Chaos.

Arkati - would not use Tapping as they would view it as going down a slippery slope towards Chaos.

Lunars - already have an association with Chaos, so its more of the individual choice. I would say there are schools which accept it, and other which do not. In fact I see internal conflict between these aka Hong Kong martial arts movies.

[metcalph]

On the topic of Tap, it stems from Zzabur's revival of the Cosmos.  It is thus organically part of their sorcery and cannot be forbidden.

Social rules prohibiting the use of Tap in Dragon Pass look to me a non-starter as there's no large community of sorcerers* to make the rules.  A sorcerer by himself (such as Urvantarn) can do whatever he wants without philosophical sanction (ie punishments imposed by his fellows as opposed to an outraged populace).  Since nobody has Worship Invisible God, tapping is almost essential knowledge.

There are the Lunars of course but since they are close to chaos, they are unlikely to have rules against it (and would actively promote steal breath to freak out the Orlanthi).  

*There are sorcerers in the Holy Country and Black Horse County but they are not very numerous.

[Lordabdul]

Nobody should go looking for RQ3 rules unless they used to play that game and have the boxes around the house. A lot of people (like myself) are new to RQ as of RQG. And @PhilHibbs is right anyway that this is a setting/cultural thing, not a rules thing. So my reference for this is the Guide to Glorantha:

• p48: "Most Malkioni, except the Brithini, Vadeli, and Waertagi, consider Tapping to be immoral and evil. However, the principle is inherent in Malkioni philosophy and is easily derived from the logical techniques the Malkioni use to summon, command, or combine Runes."
  • From this I understand most Malkioni schools forbid learning the Tapping technique directly, but they occasionally use it for "approved situtations" at double cost using the other techniques they know.
• p48: just below the above quote is a sample sorcery school focused on Water, and which actually allows learning Tapping directly.
• p151: a sample list of Malkioni schools, some of which allow Tapping with certain conditions. On p53 there's a little bit more detail on one of them, the Galvosti.
• p212: Central Fronela uses Tapping as a form of state punishment in some cases.

.... and so on. As far as I'm concerned, that's the proper way to handle this particular issue.

Edited January 1, 2021 by lordabdul

[PhilHibbs]

6 hours ago, Kloster said:

By the way, where have you found those lines?

I didn't know where those lines were from, I'm re-quoting them from having heard them referenced in several conversations. They may not be "canon", but they have entered the Gloranthan vernacular. And it's just an explanation of why Tap is considered bad, not whether or not it is considered bad, which it certainly is by the majority of mainstream sorcerers. It occupies a similar space as necromancy in most schools of thought.

To be honest I find this whole conceit of whether Tap is no longer a bad thing just because of the quirks of the RQ3 and RQG wording rather tedious. "Only people could be tapped in RQ3, Tapping was considered bad in RQ3, Therefore only tapping people is bad", seriously?

I think I've said everything I need to say. I hope that @coffeemancer has enough answers to pick and choose among to resolve the original problem.

Edited January 1, 2021 by PhilHibbs

[Kloster]

18 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Aeolians - basically Orlanthi and would not use any Tapping as it is considered Chaos.

Why is it considered Chaos by Orlanthi (we agree Aeolians are slightly special Orlanthi)?

19 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Arkati - would not use Tapping as they would view it as going down a slippery slope towards Chaos.

Same, why consider it linked to chaos?

20 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Lunars - already have an association with Chaos, so its more of the individual choice. I would say there are schools which accept it, and other which do not. In fact I see internal conflict between these aka Hong Kong martial arts movies.

This I like (the rest, I don't dislike, but I don't see why it would be seen as linked to chaos).

16 minutes ago, metcalph said:

On the topic of Tap, it stems from Zzabur's revival of the Cosmos.  It is thus organically part of their sorcery and cannot be forbidden.

Social rules prohibiting the use of Tap in Dragon Pass look to me a non-starter as there's no large community of sorcerers* to make the rules.  A sorcerer by himself (such as Urvantarn) can do whatever he wants without philosophical sanction (ie punishments imposed by his fellows as opposed to an outraged populace).  Since nobody has Worship Invisible God, tapping is almost essential knowledge.

This is more how I understand it: There is no social stigmata on actions most (almost all) people don't know it exists.

18 minutes ago, metcalph said:

There are the Lunars of course but since they are close to chaos, they are unlikely to have rules against it (and would actively promote steal breath to freak out the Orlanthi).  

*There are sorcerers in the Holy Country and Black Horse County but they are not very numerous.

Completely agree here.

[Kloster]

2 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

"Only people could be tapped in RQ3, Tapping was considered bad in RQ3, Therefore only tapping people is bad", seriously?

This is not what I wrote, nor promote. What I say is that if we apply the RQ3 restrictions, Tapping people is forbidden for most sorcerors and we don't know for the rest. Everything else that has been told for now is coming from non RQ sources.

5 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I didn't know where those lines were from, I'm re-quoting them from having heard them referenced in several conversations. They may not be "canon", but they have entered the Gloranthan vernacular. And it's just an explanation of why Tap is considered bad, not whether or not it is considered bad, which it certainly is by the majority of mainstream sorcerers. It occupies a similar space as necromancy in most schools of thought.

Pete Metcalph answered the question. And as I have already explained, I like them, and am not trying to avoid them. As you say, "And it's just an explanation of why Tap is considered bad, not whether or not it is considered bad, which it certainly is by the majority of mainstream sorcerers." but is says it for Malkioni (more properly most of them). It says nothing for non Malkioni that don't know anything and would probably  not care about Malkion's and Zzabur's teachings.