Taking down a spell with Spirit Screen

[Shiningbrow]

On 12/24/2020 at 2:17 AM, lordabdul said:

I would, again, just count the number of points of each spell (including the Multispell itself). So Multispell used to cast two 1-point spells would be 4 MP strong (1 RP + 1 MP + 1 MP). This makes the "bundle of spells" stronger than each part, which makes it possible to pierce a Countermagic in one-go. That makes Multispell more worth the investment because you can boost it with piercing MPs, instead of having to boost each spell separately.

Personally, I wouldn't.

I see the Multispell affecting the caster, not the recipient. So, Multispell 3 Disruptions, and the target needs to Counter 3MPs, not 2 RPs + 3 MPs - because it's the Disruption hitting the target, not the Multispell.

As for the boost, not according to RAW, which says you treat each Spirit spell individually (except for Disruption).

[Kloster]

11 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I see the Multispell affecting the caster, not the recipient. So, Multispell 3 Disruptions, and the target needs to Counter 3MPs, not 2 RPs + 3 MPs - because it's the Disruption hitting the target, not the Multispell.

I see it the same way.

[Godlearner]

On 12/22/2020 at 10:35 AM, Kloster said:

No, a Spirit Screen 4 does not take down anything, at least as we play it. Either no incompatible spell is in place and it takes effect, or an incompatible spell is in place, whether 1 or 1 gazillion point, and it automatically fails.

Page 387 of RQG:

Incompatible Spells

Some spells cannot be cast on the same target. When a spell is cast on a target that already has an incompatible spell, then only the spell with the greatest magic point value takes effect. If both spells are of equal value, then the already-existing spell remains in effect.

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

Some spells cannot be cast on the same target. When a spell is cast on a target that already has an incompatible spell, then only the spell with the greatest magic point value takes effect. If both spells are of equal value, then the already-existing spell remains in effect.

Thanks for correcting.

[Akhôrahil]

On 12/25/2020 at 7:28 PM, Godlearner said:

Some spells cannot be cast on the same target. When a spell is cast on a target that already has an incompatible spell, then only the spell with the greatest magic point value takes effect. If both spells are of equal value, then the already-existing spell remains in effect.

This is sensible - it's about the same way as a Dispel works.

Note that a Countermagic spell can also be taken down by just blasting through it, which is the far more likely way to pop it.

[Akhôrahil]

On 12/25/2020 at 4:27 AM, Shiningbrow said:

As for the boost, not according to RAW, which says you treat each Spirit spell individually (except for Disruption).

Since you can pop Countermagic (although not Shield), a smart caster would boost the first spell in order to have it take down the Countermagic, so that it's gone for the follow-up spells.

[PhilHibbs]

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Since you can pop Countermagic (although not Shield), a smart caster would boost the first spell in order to have it take down the Countermagic, so that it's gone for the follow-up spells.

Of course it also depends on how likely the caster thinks Countermagic is. If the target doesn't have it up, then boosting is a waste of time and MPs. It's a risk and a judgement call based on the situation. As a GM you need to be careful not to use your knowledge that the NPCs don't have.

[soltakss]

If you have the Magic Points and a good spell, casting a big Spirit Screen also stops the opponent from casting Protection successfully. so, if you cast Spirit Screen 8 then it blasts down most Protection, shimmer and Countermagic spells and needs Protection/Countermagic/Shimmer 9 or Dispel Magic 8 to take it down.

[Psullie]

You wouldn't need Spirit Screen 8, Spirit Screen 1 with a 7 MP boost would do the trick? 

[soltakss]

56 minutes ago, Psullie said:

You wouldn't need Spirit Screen 8, Spirit Screen 1 with a 7 MP boost would do the trick? 

No, I don't think so.

Spirit Screen 1 with 7 MPs boost simply blasts through Countermagic as an 8 point spell.

If I cast Protection 4 on top of Spirit Screen 1 then the protection should win, no matter the boost on Spirit Screen.

At least, that is how I interpret the rules.

 

[Kloster]

5 minutes ago, soltakss said:

At least, that is how I interpret the rules.

I agree with you, but one more time, there is an ambiguity: "When a spell is cast on a target that already has an incompatible spell, then only the spell with the greatest magic point value takes effect." can be understood both ways.

[soltakss]

2 minutes ago, Kloster said:

I agree with you, but one more time, there is an ambiguity: "When a spell is cast on a target that already has an incompatible spell, then only the spell with the greatest magic point value takes effect." can be understood both ways.

Yes, it is ambiguous.

I read this as the number of points in the spell, not the boosted value.

That is my interpretation.

Other interpretations may vary.

[Kloster]

2 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Other interpretations may vary.

Which can be a problem when too many rules are subject to interpretations.

[soltakss]

13 hours ago, Kloster said:

Which can be a problem when too many rules are subject to interpretations.

To be honest, it probably is not an issue.

At my gaming table the rule works one way, at your gaming table the rule might work another way. We are both happy until we game together then the GM makes the decision about how it works.

Also, bear in mind that it only affects Stackable shared spells, which is a definite minority.

Extension is different, as that is common, but I would allow Extension to be cast using Rune Points from 2 Rune Pools.

Divination is different again and I would allow it to be cast from different rune pools, but the question is asked of two deities, so casting Divination 6 using 2 Orlanthi Rune Points and 4 Storm Bull rune Points means you get 2 answers from Orlanth and 4 from Storm Bull.

 

[Kloster]

18 minutes ago, soltakss said:

To be honest, it probably is not an issue.

At my gaming table the rule works one way, at your gaming table the rule might work another way. We are both happy until we game together then the GM makes the decision about how it works.

Also, bear in mind that it only affects Stackable shared spells, which is a definite minority.

Extension is different, as that is common, but I would allow Extension to be cast using Rune Points from 2 Rune Pools.

Divination is different again and I would allow it to be cast from different rune pools, but the question is asked of two deities, so casting Divination 6 using 2 Orlanthi Rune Points and 4 Storm Bull rune Points means you get 2 answers from Orlanth and 4 from Storm Bull.

 

Agreed, this point is not much of an issue. My point was that there are too many rules that are subject to interpretations. When you change of player group (I have no current regular group), everything has to be clarified each time, as many people have different readings of different rules.

By the way, I agree with your divination reading.

[Joerg]

On 12/27/2020 at 11:23 AM, soltakss said:

If you have the Magic Points and a good spell, casting a big Spirit Screen also stops the opponent from casting Protection successfully. so, if you cast Spirit Screen 8 then it blasts down most Protection, shimmer and Countermagic spells and needs Protection/Countermagic/Shimmer 9 or Dispel Magic 8 to take it down.

Or you keep your distance for the remainder of the spell duration and cast your spell then.

Removing Countermagic is easy - cast any spell within or beyond 1 point of the CM total, and the CM spirit spell is gone. CM becomes reusable only if cast with 3 or more points. It is nice on top of a Shield spell, but that costs extra points to avoid the CM effect of the Shield. 

As for incompatible spells or spells cast over spells already in effect, there are various possible outcomes, depending on the metarules used.

Let's say your champion received a Protection 3 seven melee rounds ago, but the fight still drags on, and you want to renew that spell without giving the opposition any opportunity to pelt him with missiles in the few moments (strike ranks) between the spell expiring and the supporter casting the spell anew. Would the replacement spell have to be stronger than the existing spell? Would a Protection 2 cast upon a target with Protection 3 remaining for 2 more melee rounds go to waste completely, or would it be layered under that Protection 3, coming into effect as soon as the 3-point spell expires? Would a Protection 2 with two points of Boost push aside the 3-point spell?

Or do all these spells hold onto a specific "hard point" of the target's magical aura, with only one magic able to hold on to that target? Does a spell like Shield offer a hard point outside of that it occupies to attach to the target? If so, can that extra hard point be used to attach another Shield spell?

Personally, I don't see how boosting MP do not dissipate if they are not part of the spell structure. (I might allow use of a magic skill yet to be determined to make them part of that structure, at the cost of casting time.) To me, they are a penetration aid, a wave of brute magical force without any duration, with the sole purpose of overloading a Countermagic or Absorption or Reflection effect (or Attract Magic, or...).

 

Regarding different rune pools: A simultaneous casting may be desirable if the caster undergoes an elaborate ceremony to augment the chance of success. For a single roll, the rune used to cast that spell should be the same, but being two deities at the same time is bound to be confusing unless you have the mystical or sorcerous insight that these are only expressions of one shared deeper truth. On the other hand, losing that personal touch may make that information rom a Divination a lot more detached, too.

If a caster of rune magic is initiated to more than one deity, she can use common spells from both initiations. Can she combine them? If they can stack in different castings, maybe. If she can split her awareness between the two different runic entities, maybe.
You don't usually get common magic as an associate spell, if your cult already has access to that common magic. There are cults with limited access to common rune magic - e.g. spirit cults. In those cases, the caster may be limited to associate magic to cast that common rune magic spell.