Do all guilds in Pavis have a wyter?

[Brootse]

Do all guilds in Pavis have a wyter?

[Joerg]

Are they big enough to maintain one? And were they founded with one?

Less populous guilds may act as adjuncts of an established temple - like the Knowledge Temple for a number of activities that require some measure of learning and literacy. Or adjacent trades unite into an omnibus guild to be able to maintain both a wyter and a scribe as their permanent secretary.

An understrength community might lend magical support for their wyter from an established temple, making the wyter double as one of the temple spirits.

I doubt that the swordmasters or horsemasters of Pavis have a local guild with a local wyter.

[soltakss]

In my Glorantha, yes.

[Bill the barbarian]

3 hours ago, Brootse said:

Do all guilds in Pavis have a wyter?

to aid in this discussion I thought to go to the source...

Quote

A wyter is the spirit of a community. It is a magical entity linked to its members and a leader, conferred with special powers and abilities. The community may vary, and wyters have been associated with everything from villages, military regiments, temples, clans, tribes, and cities. Any community with an associated Passion has a wyter. A wyter is a powerful resource for a community, but is also the community’s most precious treasure. Without the wyter the community does not exist, the bonds of fraternity dissolving. Its members will become alienated from one another, moving apart, perhaps even leaving the area.

From RQ RiG page 286

Hm well let ’s start with no wyter no community. I guess you must ask is a guild a functioning community. I suppose it does not have to be to exist, but being a guild member on the blue marble, well no community in a guild/union sucks and weakens it but I have seen them. Do they function, matter of opinion... I say no and again as already said not well at the least. An associated passion, well I am not sure what this means so I will leave this to others to start.

Edited later
Now that last sentence brings us full circle. The lack of a wyter is the lack of a community. This leaves the question; is a guild a community?

Edited February 11, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[French Desperate WindChild]

10 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

This leaves the question; is a guild a community?

or ... what is a community ?

We know that a community (rqg term) has a wyter. So that mean community members share a part of there soul to a higher purpose than their own personal interest
 

Now what is a guild ?

an association of people sharing some interests, and following some rules to optimize these interests.

These interests can be material (price, market exclusivity, protection, manufacturing secret ...) or immaterial (morale value, spirit spell, heroquest secret, ...)
 

 @Joerg answer brings something important : the temple. We can find a god for everything.  Probably a craft guild IS the local cult of the craft cult(or the sub cult of a larger god) That is there you must be to pray your god, to learn its secerets etc... the guild master is naturaly the local priest, the wyter is a cult spirit protecting the temple (aka the community)

From my perspective, a guild becomes a community when its members look for more than material resources sharing.

So yes for craftmen because a cult is behind, and for other guilds, it will depends. Guild of assassins => black fang ? so yes a community

Guild of weapon masters ?  I would say no, so no wyter.

Association of mercenary to become a troop (could be seen as a guild after all ? I would say yes, so a wyter

Association of mercenary for one mission, for one season ? I would say no, so no wyter

 

 

 

[soltakss]

12 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

This leaves the question; is a guild a community?

In my Glorantha, yes.

 

[Joerg]

Do guilds work like clans (a local subset of people) or do they work as cults (people doing the same stuff as subgroups of distant communities)?

"I am a member of the alchemist's guild" may make you welcome with other guild members in various places you visit.

So, will a Pavisite alchemist be a member of the Pavisite Alchemist guild (in all likelihood way too small to form a wyter), or will that more be the Pavis chapter of the Kethaelan Guild of Alchemists, and associated to the local omnibus guild of tanners, dyers, perfumers and other businesses dealing with unpleasant substances?

Edited February 12, 2021 by Joerg

[Ladygolem]

2 minutes ago, Joerg said:

So, will a Pavisite alchemist be a member of the Pavisite Alchemist guild (in all likelihood way too small to form a wyter), or will that more be the Pavis chapter of the Kethaelan Guild of Alchemists, and associated to the omnibus guild of tanners, dyers, perfumers and other businesses dealing with unpleasant substances?

It would depend on the profession, no? Widespread organisations are probably more likely for professions that require a lot of travel or inter-city connections, or ones that are particularly dangerous, specialized or lucrative. How vulnerable the industry is to unwelcome competition? How important formal training is to perform the job well? Do the workers have a particularly strong need to organize themselves against abusive bosses, or conversely, do the bosses need to aid each other to prevent their workers gaining too much autonomy?

These are questions off the top of my head. One could consult historical sources to see which industries were more likely to form guilds and why. The royal guilds of London are particularly well documented, in part because many survive to this day, and would make a good place to start.

[Brootse]

One of the problems about the Pavis guilds is that there are too many of them for such a small place, which is a common fantasy trope. At least if we look at the numbers on HQ Pavis Gateway to Adventure p. 152. There are 25 guild elders in the town, and since Hallarax is the elder of two guilds, there are at least 26 guilds. Wyters need at least 50 worshippers, and only half of the adults are in guilds as full members or dependants, so unless children are recruited, there wouldn't be enough people to give wyters enough worshippers. And even if most of the unnamed guilds were axed, some of the guilds from official sources like eg. the Jewelers Guild would still be too small to have enough worshippers for a wyter.

Imo guilds should definitely have wyters. But I also think that communities smaller than 50 people should exist too.

Edited February 12, 2021 by Brootse

[David Scott]

17 hours ago, Brootse said:

Do all guilds in Pavis have a wyter?

TLDR - No.

Looking at the Guilds in the three core Pavis books, it's clear they are occupational and semi-political groups. There is of course a spillover into the cults present and some of the guilds appear to be the city version of a normal cult. This is clear in at least the Alchemists, Bronze, Merchant, River & Stonemasons guilds (note that if there is a legal alchemists guild, my belief is that it's still a front for the Lanbril cult, Pavis is too small for two alchemist guilds). The high priest of the cult is likely to have a wyter and so and by association so do those guilds. The other guilds, I would say no. They are headed by initiates of other cults (Hallarax is likely a Donandar cultist or similar, as well as a Zola Fel initiate). Depending on who is head of what will confer a wyter to the guild. For Example when Valerina leaves Pavis, an issaries priest will likely take over, who may well have a wyter. 

Format Cult (associated cult) - Head of guild (cult membership) - Wyter?

Alchemists’ Guild (Lanbril) - Yes, Lanbril.

Bronze Workers guild (Gustbran)- Kalf Haldelson (priest of Gustbran) - Yes, Gustbran.

Cloth and Leather Workers guild - Byrgga Scissortongue (Ernalda Initiate) - Currently no.

Jeweler’s Guild - Kolli the Portly (Flintnail Initiate) - Currently no.

Merchant Guild (Issaries and Etyries) - Valerina the Peddler (priestess of Etyries) - Yes Etyries.

Minstrel’s Guild - Hallarax the Singer - - Maybe of Donandar based on Hallarax's cult status.

Riverman’s Guild (Zola Fel) - Hallarax the Singer - Yes, Zola Fel.

Stonemason guild (Flintnail) Ginkizzie (priest of Flintnail) - Yes, Flintnail.

Tanners Guild - unknown.

Thieves’ Guild (Lanbril) - Yes, Lanbril.

Weapon-masters - Derenx the Handsome (Humakt initiate) - Currently no.

[Joerg]

In standard Sartarite cities like Jonstown or Wilmskirk, guilds take the role of clans and temples when it comes to land ownership inside the city walls. I suppose that New Pavis doesn't differ much in this regard, although the Pavis Cult with its Second Age traditions will have had its say.

That's one reason why I am talking about omnibus guilds. Looking at Wilmskirk, which is known for its many crafters and artisans, it is quite likely that those crafters and artisans are organized in something resembling a clan with occupational "bloodlines", where the various occupation speciality groups contribute to a guild ring which then fields a guild master (lika that Flatnose guy from Sartar High Council) for the city ring (or in that case, even the city rex aka mayor).

Which means that Brygga Scissortongue, as the mayor, would have the Orlanth Rex cult behind her (at least when the Lunars don't suppress it).

 

Guild may be another of these terms which have several definitions, depending on context, similar to tribes and subtribes.

One definition could be "an organization which holds land in a Sartarite-chartered city". Such an organization certainly has enough members or followers to warrant a wyter. It may constitute of a number of different specializations or even non-related crafts.

One definition could be "an organization which collects and teaches specific artisanal skills, spread out over a number of cities".

The Swordmasters may be an adjunct to the local, regional or "national" (supra-tribal, e.g. Sartarite) temple of Humakt, and the Horsemasters an adjunct to Elmal (which Monrogh may or may not have carried over to Yelmalio, but certainly not to the Zola Fel Valley Sun Dome Temple which doesn't really have horses).

Not every craftsman will be part of the Sartarite mother guilds - I would imagine that a majority of the tanners in Pavis have a Beast Nomad background. Same with butchers and other such nomad-adjacent skills. Question is, are they (forced to be) members of the local guild?

People who don't identify as full initiates of a craft-associated cult can (and usually will) be active and quite permanent lay worshipers of those cults, and be eligible to be targeted by the wyter of that community.

I'm on the record to have argued for some recognition of this lesser degree of inclusion into a cult or pantheon. Lay Member is different from Lay Worshiper - the latter can be on the spot, a one time participation, whereas Lay Member suggests a form of contribution which includes magical and quite likely also monetary sacrifice on a regular basis.

In RQG's POW economy, demanding a POW sacrifice to join a wyter should at least be rewarded with a chance to regain POW from those worship services. (A similar argument can be done for Spirit Cult membership, or hero worship.) Or one can leave these POW donations and returns alone, and find some other measurable criterion for this increased form of belonging.

Edited February 12, 2021 by Joerg

[kr0p0s]

14 minutes ago, Joerg said:

In standard Sartarite cities like Jonstown or Wilmskirk, guilds take the role of clans and temples when it comes to land ownership inside the city walls. I suppose that New Pavis doesn't differ much in this regard, although the Pavis Cult with its Second Age traditions will have had its say.

 

I seem to remember that Guilds were going to be covered in the forthcoming Gamemasters Book? Can anyone confirm this?

The Community as Character concept introduced in the Appendix of Six Seasons in Sartar seems to be a useful way of defining these communities. I an looking forward to seeing how the author expands upon the framework in future releases.

[Brootse]

22 minutes ago, Joerg said:

In standard Sartarite cities like Jonstown or Wilmskirk, guilds take the role of clans and temples when it comes to land ownership inside the city walls. I suppose that New Pavis doesn't differ much in this regard, although the Pavis Cult with its Second Age traditions will have had its say.

That's one reason why I am talking about omnibus guilds. Looking at Wilmskirk, which is known for its many crafters and artisans, it is quite likely that those crafters and artisans are organized in something resembling a clan with occupational "bloodlines", where the various occupation speciality groups contribute to a guild ring which then fields a guild master (lika that Flatnose guy from Sartar High Council) for the city ring (or in that case, even the city rex aka mayor).

Which means that Brygga Scissortongue, as the mayor, would have the Orlanth Rex cult behind her (at least when the Lunars don't suppress it).

The Swordmasters may be an adjunct to the local, regional or "national" (supra-tribal, e.g. Sartarite) temple of Humakt, and the Horsemasters an adjunct to Elmal (which Monrogh may or may not have carried over to Yelmalio, but certainly not to the Zola Fel Valley Sun Dome Temple which doesn't really have horses).

Not every craftsman will be part of the Sartarite mother guilds - I would imagine that a majority of the tanners in Pavis have a Beast Nomad background. Same with butchers and other such nomad-adjacent skills. Question is, are they (forced to be) members of the local guild?

In RQG's POW economy, demanding a POW sacrifice to join a wyter should at least be rewarded with a chance to regain POW from those worship services. (A similar argument can be done for Spirit Cult membership, or hero worship.) Or one can leave these POW donations and returns alone, and find some other measurable criterion for this increased form of belonging.

Yeah, there were some threads on the forums a while ago, and iirc mayors and such are in Orlanth Rex.

The weaponmasters in Pavis come from cults that are hostile to each other, so my guess is that the guild exists only to keep track of the weaponmasters, and they don't really form a community as such.

The tanners are officially in a guild, and looking at the HQ Pavis book, they only work in Badside, but don't live there. I put the butchers in the same guild to bolster its numbers.

I don't think that every worshipper is required to sacrifice POW to join a wyter. In my Wolf pirate campaign it was a requirement in the group's ship to keep up the wyter's POW.

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, Brootse said:

I don't think that every worshipper is required to sacrifice POW to join a wyter. In my Wolf pirate campaign it was a requirement in the group's ship to keep up the wyter's POW.

I don't think that's a requirement, either. A clan wyter has a connection to the children of the clan, probably after a formal presentation of the child to the clan and the wyter, but certainly without the infant sacrificing a point of POW. (A droplet of blood might be involved, though, or a piece of the umbilical, or...)

But what exactly enables a wyter to target an individual as a member of its community?

[Brootse]

14 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I don't think that's a requirement, either. A clan wyter has a connection to the children of the clan, probably after a formal presentation of the child to the clan and the wyter, but certainly without the infant sacrificing a point of POW. (A droplet of blood might be involved, though, or a piece of the umbilical, or...)

But what exactly enables a wyter to target an individual as a member of its community?

Mp sacrifice perhaps?

[Brootse]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

TLDR - No.

Looking at the Guilds in the three core Pavis books, it's clear they are occupational and semi-political groups. There is of course a spillover into the cults present and some of the guilds appear to be the city version of a normal cult. This is clear in at least the Alchemists, Bronze, Merchant, River & Stonemasons guilds (note that if there is a legal alchemists guild, my belief is that it's still a front for the Lanbril cult, Pavis is too small for two alchemist guilds). The high priest of the cult is likely to have a wyter and so and by association so do those guilds. The other guilds, I would say no. They are headed by initiates of other cults (Hallarax is likely a Donandar cultist or similar, as well as a Zola Fel initiate). Depending on who is head of what will confer a wyter to the guild. For Example when Valerina leaves Pavis, an issaries priest will likely take over, who may well have a wyter. 

Format Cult (associated cult) - Head of guild (cult membership) - Wyter?

Alchemists’ Guild (Lanbril) - Yes, Lanbril.

Bronze Workers guild (Gustbran)- Kalf Haldelson (priest of Gustbran) - Yes, Gustbran.

Cloth and Leather Workers guild - Byrgga Scissortongue (Ernalda Initiate) - Currently no.

Jeweler’s Guild - Kolli the Portly (Flintnail Initiate) - Currently no.

Merchant Guild (Issaries and Etyries) - Valerina the Peddler (priestess of Etyries) - Yes Etyries.

Minstrel’s Guild - Hallarax the Singer - - Maybe of Donandar based on Hallarax's cult status.

Riverman’s Guild (Zola Fel) - Hallarax the Singer - Yes, Zola Fel.

Stonemason guild (Flintnail) Ginkizzie (priest of Flintnail) - Yes, Flintnail.

Tanners Guild - unknown.

Thieves’ Guild (Lanbril) - Yes, Lanbril.

Weapon-masters - Derenx the Handsome (Humakt initiate) - Currently no.

Thanks! Are there other guilds in Pavis? Wasn't Brygga an Orlanth worshipper?

[David Scott]

5 minutes ago, Brootse said:

Are there other guilds in Pavis? Wasn't Brygga an Orlanth worshipper?

Not as far as I can see in the three core Pavis books. Brygga is an Ernalda initiate. You're thinking of "Brygga Scissortongue is holding surreptitious Orlanth worship in her home on Rich Hill - general rumor." Where as an Ernalda initiate, she would be participating as a lay member.

[Brootse]

6 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Not as far as I can see in the three core Pavis books. Brygga is an Ernalda initiate. You're thinking of "Brygga Scissortongue is holding surreptitious Orlanth worship in her home on Rich Hill - general rumor." Where as an Ernalda initiate, she would be participating as a lay member.

If there are no more guilds, what do the other guild elders do? And would the members of those guilds have half of the adult population as members?

[Ladygolem]

Multiple elders per guild?

Half the adult urban population in a guild of some kind doesn't seem to crazy, honestly. People in cities are either going to be some kind of skilled worker or soldiers/priests/administrators/adventurers, because otherwise they'd be farmers living in rural areas. A fifty/fifty split between the two doesn't sound too crazy at first glance.

[Shiningbrow]

Q: does the Painters and Artists guild have wyter walls?

[Austin]

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

But what exactly enables a wyter to target an individual as a member of its community?

Emotion. Whether or not they have a Loyalty (community) Passion, in RQ-mechanical terms. I don't think this is something which requires an "MPs and POW" type of explanation.

[Austin]

21 hours ago, Joerg said:

So, will a Pavisite alchemist be a member of the Pavisite Alchemist guild (in all likelihood way too small to form a wyter), or will that more be the Pavis chapter of the Kethaelan Guild of Alchemists, and associated to the local omnibus guild of tanners, dyers, perfumers and other businesses dealing with unpleasant substances?

Here's what the core rulebook has to say on guilds, FWIW.

[Ladygolem]

Well, that's pretty cut and dry, then. It's no stretch to assume that the "patron spirit" mentioned is a form of wyter.

[David Scott]

or to assume it's a god.

[Brootse]

17 hours ago, Ladygolem said:

Multiple elders per guild?

Half the adult urban population in a guild of some kind doesn't seem to crazy, honestly. People in cities are either going to be some kind of skilled worker or soldiers/priests/administrators/adventurers, because otherwise they'd be farmers living in rural areas. A fifty/fifty split between the two doesn't sound too crazy at first glance.

50% of adults being guild members or dependants sounds good, but only if there are more guilds than the ones mentioned.