Shaker Temple &

[Ladygolem]

41 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

chickens are dinosaurs, but yes

Who knows if that's accurate in Glorantha, though? If horses are birds, then all bets are off when it comes to taxonomy.

My interpretation is that she's specifically the mother of quakebeasts, that is, beasts heavy enough to shake the ground when they tread. So a brontosaur counts, but something like Compsognathus might not. This also opens up the possibility of other ponderous beasts like bison, rhino, giant boars to claim some lesser degree of kinship as well. That's very much My Glorantha Varying, however (as is my crackpot theory reconciling the Maran Gor dinosaur origin story and the fallen dragonewt dinosaur origin story, but that belongs in the Your Dumbest Theory thread, not here...)

[g33k]

3 hours ago, Ladygolem said:

...

My interpretation is that she's specifically the mother of quakebeasts, that is, beasts heavy enough to shake the ground when they tread.,,

Mine, too (so chickens don't count; neither, for that matter, do velociraptors & deinonychus & such...  I use juvie Tyranosaurs & Allosaurs in that slot:  smaller, more-agile predator).

[Qizilbashwoman]

15 hours ago, g33k said:

Mine, too (so chickens don't count; neither, for that matter, do velociraptors & deinonychus & such...  I use juvie Tyranosaurs & Allosaurs in that slot:  smaller, more-agile predator).

horses don't count either!

19 hours ago, Ladygolem said:

If horses are birds, then all bets are off when it comes to taxonomy

well, I think we can just remember that horses are actually just birds made into mammalforms. I'm not throwing out the baby with the bathwater so much. It's already shaking up the world for a lot of people to feather dinosaurs...

Edited February 7, 2022 by Qizilbashwoman

[g33k]

54 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

horses don't count either!

Dunno, Q :
Dino's  🔁  Birds  🔁  Horses  🔁  Unicorns  🔁  Monoceratops ...

 

Kind of a "circle has no end" there, hmm ?

😉

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

horses don't count either!

well, I think we can just remember that horses are actually just birds made into mammalforms. I'm not throwing out the baby with the bathwater so much. It's already shaking up the world for a lot of people to feather dinosaurs...

Horses are sky creatures, originally feathered, probably always viviparous, and their descent from Vrimak may be more of a God Learner echo (a Vrimak like phoenix ancestor of Hykim and Mikyh) than Dara Happan canon which has King Griffon as the ancestor of Hippogriff.

The horse people (charioteers, I assume) were foes of the Ratite riders of northeastern Genertela.

This may be the disdain for a fallen sky creature, though.

So, if by "bird" you mean "originally winged, clawed and beaked", yes. If you mean "one pair of wings for the main limbs, one pair of legs to walk on", then definitely no. And the Gazzam (earth shakers, dinosaurs) of Dara Happa were in all likelihood covered in down or had actual feathers, but many lacked the beaks, too.

 

Speaking of nurturing, I wonder when the earth goddesses began to manifest mammaries. According to elemental descent of animals theory, it required the birth of Storm to introduce milkgving animals.

[JRE]

Going that way, Earth does not care about invertebrates (darkness) or fish (water), as they are not their children. But all earth goddesses should have a reptilian, feathered-beaked and mammalian form. The feathers are not so typical among the Storm, people, mammal supremacists, though the Feathered Horse Queen shows it can exist, and it should be typical among solars and some horse people. The Orlanthi are mostly familiar with reptilian and mammalian, obviously, and the Dinosaur link of the Earthshaker Temple reinforces it

Is there some secret Lunar project to mate Moon with Earth and see what kind of beasts appear?

[Qizilbashwoman]

8 hours ago, JRE said:

Going that way, Earth does not care about invertebrates (darkness) or fish (water), as they are not their children. But all earth goddesses should have a reptilian, feathered-beaked and mammalian form.

if you want to worship a mother of animals for invertebrates, the Trolls have it, and for water creatures, see the same. For birds, idk, but the mother of animals doesn't bless us with chickens; she's herd mammals through and through as far as I can tell.

I don't know who would be reptiles. Just to clarify, reptiles are a branch separate from both dinosaurs-birds and from mammals. This surprises many people.

[Joerg]

11 hours ago, JRE said:

Going that way, Earth does not care about invertebrates (darkness) or fish (water), as they are not their children.

Missing Lands had a myth about Bab, the Food Goddess, made to feed the fish (so to say) who turned out to be (or become) Gata, the broad earth (or was it earth broad?). Nurturing the Seas sounds like caring to me.

[Qizilbashwoman]

52 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Missing Lands had a myth about Bab, the Food Goddess, made to feed the fish (so to say) who turned out to be (or become) Gata, the broad earth (or was it earth broad?). Nurturing the Seas sounds like caring to me.

the real question is whether Gorakiki is a kind of Earth goddess?

[Bill the barbarian]

4 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I don't know who would be reptiles. Just to clarify, reptiles are a branch separate from both dinosaurs-birds and from mammals. This surprises many people.

I had always thought there were 4 branches of reptiles....

Crocodilians
Crocodilians are a group of large reptiles that includes alligators, crocodiles, gharials, and caimans. Crocodilians are formidable predators with powerful jaws, a muscular tail, large protective scales, streamlined body, and eyes and nostrils that are positioned on top of their head. Crocodilians first appeared about 84 million years ago during the Late Cretaceous and are the closest living relatives of the birds. Crocodilians have changed little in the past 200 million years. There are about 23 species of crocodilians alive today.

Key Characteristics
The key characteristics of crocodilians include:

elongated, structurally reinforced skull
wide gape
powerful jaw muscles
teeth set in sockets
complete secondary palate
oviparous
adults provide extensive parental care to young

Squamates
Squamates are the most diverse of all the reptile groups, with approximately 7,400 living species. Squamates include lizards, snakes, and worm-lizards. Squamates first appeared in the fossil record during the mid-Jurassic and probably existed before that time. The fossil record for squamates is rather sparse. Modern squamates arose about 160 million years ago, during the late Jurassic Period. The earliest lizard fossils are between 185 and 165 million years old.

Key Characteristics
The key characteristics of squamates include:

most diverse group of reptiles
exceptional skull mobility

Tuatara
Tuatara is a group of reptiles that are lizard-like in appearance but they differ from the squamates in that their skull is not jointed. Tuatara was once widespread but today only two species of tuatara remain. Their range is now restricted to just a few islands in New Zealand. The first tuatara appeared during the Mesozoic Era, about 220 million years ago, about the same time the first dinosaurs appeared. The closest living relatives of the tuatara are the squamates.

Key Characteristics
The key characteristics of tuataras include:

slow growth and low reproductive rates
reach sexual maturity at 10 to 20 years of age
diapsid skull with two temporal openings
prominent parietal eye on top of the head

Turtles
Turtles are among the most ancient of the reptiles alive today and have changed little since they first appeared some 200 million years ago. They have a protective shell that encloses their body and provides protection and camouflage. Turtles inhabit terrestrial, freshwater, and marine habitats and are found both in tropical and temperate regions. The first turtles appeared more than 220 million years ago during the Late Triassic Period. Since that time, turtles have changed little and it is quite possible that modern turtles closely resemble those that roamed the Earth during the time of the dinosaurs.

Key Characteristics
The key characteristics of turtles include:

keratinized plates in place of teeth
body enclosed in a shell that consists of carapace and plastron
a keen sense of smell, good color vision, poor hearing
bury eggs in the ground

[Ladygolem]

Tuataras are obviously strong in the Moon rune, what with the "third eye" and all that. Moon + Earth = Hon-eel, perhaps? Deezola? Either could claim them as holy. Maybe all tuataras are Illuminated - though being but lowly little creatures they don't do as much with this as one might imagine.

[Jeff]

4 hours ago, Ladygolem said:

Tuataras are obviously strong in the Moon rune, what with the "third eye" and all that. Moon + Earth = Hon-eel, perhaps? Deezola? Either could claim them as holy. Maybe all tuataras are Illuminated - though being but lowly little creatures they don't do as much with this as one might imagine.

The God Learner taxonomy holds that "reptiles" are descended from Jaskal, the offspring of Gata and Hykim. They were beloved by the kinswomen Ernalda and Maran Gor. Ernalda coupled with Hykim to give birth to Eiritha, Mralora, Fralar, Permala, and the other ancestors of mammals. The dinosaurs who lived at the base of Kero Fin were the beloved of Maran Gor who is often called the Mother of Dinosaurs, and they also served Ernalda. 

But this is mythic correspondences and NOT palaeontology. The taxonomy works because it based on magical and mythic correspondences that are proven through magic and on the Hero Plane. 

[Ian Absentia]

5 hours ago, Ladygolem said:

 Maybe all tuataras are Illuminated - though being but lowly little creatures they don't do as much with this as one might imagine.

Arguably the epitome of certain paths to Illumination.  Tuataras for the win...or non-loss.

!i!

[Qizilbashwoman]

6 hours ago, Jeff said:

But this is mythic correspondences and NOT palaeontology. The taxonomy works because it based on magical and mythic correspondences that are proven through magic and on the Hero Plane. 

it's only natural that we are going to reinterpret texts based on our own perceptions and understandings of the world. the fictional monomyth is also interpreted by us as participants. this has lead to textual reinterpretation many times in the past, such as when Greg rewrote fundamental things about gender because he realised they were sexist. it's good to understand the texts but we're gonna spin in chat

[Darius West]

Kero Fin is a freakishly unnatural looking mountain.  It strikes into the sky like an enormous needle of unimaginable height, and is far higher than Mount Everest.  You cannot see the top of Kero Fin without hero questing.   Is it in fact the remains of a Space Elevator cable system?  Of course not, this is fantasy, not sci fi, and the Mostali are not right about the world machine.  Yes, there may be people living an idealized life up there in this Dome like structure, but to say that they are living in some sort of space habitat is just wrong, they are Shanasse, not Shanasstronauts.

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

... and the Mostali are not right about the world machine...

???
Of course they're right!

Just as the people who say they aren't, are also right.

The metaphysics of Glorantha are confusing... and intentionally without absoutism and "One True Way".

[Sir_Godspeed]

EDIT: I originally went on a tangent about cladistics, ignoring the quoted poster's point not really relating specifically to phylogenetics, so I decided to delete it since it didn't add anything of value to the conversation.

To attempt to salvage this spot: I think it's interesting that Glorantha offers us an "evolutionary tree" that takes intelligent design at face value, where gods can be said to "steal" and "borrow" and get "inspired" by the creations of other gods. Maybe Triolina saw some land animals and thought "aw man, lungs are cool, let's do something with that", or Gata saw a bird with feathers and thought "that's sick, imma put some of those on my lumbering behemoths" or whatever.

Basically, while thinking in terms of gods as ancestors of animals is probably the most common analogy, it can be a bit limiting and forcing us into thinking of these binary unions. I think we could fruitfully think of the gods as literal MAKERS of them too, which opens up for more indirect influences and more numerous "ancestors" (throuples and quadrouples and who knows). Gata and Hykim AND Aether, for example. Triolina AND Umath AND Hykim. 

 

Or you know, not. I'm just spitballing.
 

 

 

Edited March 20, 2022 by Sir_Godspeed

[FlamingCatOfDeath]

On 3/19/2022 at 6:07 PM, Sir_Godspeed said:

To attempt to salvage this spot: I think it's interesting that Glorantha offers us an "evolutionary tree" that takes intelligent design at face value, where gods can be said to "steal" and "borrow" and get "inspired" by the creations of other gods. Maybe Triolina saw some land animals and thought "aw man, lungs are cool, let's do something with that", or Gata saw a bird with feathers and thought "that's sick, imma put some of those on my lumbering behemoths" or whatever.

Basically, while thinking in terms of gods as ancestors of animals is probably the most common analogy, it can be a bit limiting and forcing us into thinking of these binary unions. I think we could fruitfully think of the gods as literal MAKERS of them too, which opens up for more indirect influences and more numerous "ancestors" (throuples and quadrouples and who knows). Gata and Hykim AND Aether, for example. Triolina AND Umath AND Hykim. 

It’s a good thing that the celestial courts/Yelms concept of law doesn’t include intellectual property…

[Darius West]

On 3/7/2022 at 7:42 PM, g33k said:

???
Of course they're right!

Just as the people who say they aren't, are also right.

The metaphysics of Glorantha are confusing... and intentionally without absoutism and "One True Way".

I am dobbing you in to the Stormbulls!  That is straight up illuminism 🙂

[g33k]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

I am dobbing you in to the Stormbulls!  That is straight up illuminism 🙂

Ha.
Hold my beer!

===

(I'll just tell the Uroxi -- "See that guy?  Holding the beer?  That's the beer I was bringing you... but he stole it!"
... It was nice knowing you...)

[Darius West]

2 hours ago, g33k said:

Ha.
Hold my beer!

===

(I'll just tell the Uroxi -- "See that guy?  Holding the beer?  That's the beer I was bringing you... but he stole it!"
... It was nice knowing you...)

Heh, I often play a Stormbull.