My Players Confessed: They Don't Use Passions or Runes Because the Penalties Scare Them

[Lordabdul]

54 minutes ago, creativehum said:

What the Traits and Passions do is track the actions of the character. And if the character keeps behaving in a certain way, the stat goes up. 

[...]

I am not that familiar with the RQG rules to know how this tracks in comparison.

AFAIK the intent of the mechanic in RQG is pretty similar to Pendragon.

I agree that Passions are tracking behind the actions -- not leading them. When the player keeps acting in a way that aligns with their character's Passions, these Passions can go up. In return, the player gets to use these Passions to get bonuses in play, get support from their community, and have powerful NPCs helping them. On the other hand, players can always go in other directions, but after a while it will lead to the GM lowering some Passions, and the player losing some of the Passion's perks.

It's all supposed to be fun and games, so those who don't find Passions fun are either misunderstanding the mechanic, or just enjoy playing characters who act rather randomly.

On a more anecdotal level, a couple of my players often like rolling these kinds of stats (RQG Passions, GURPS Disadvantages, FATE or HQ/GW Flaws, etc.) just to see "what their character might do" when they can't be bothered to make a decision themselves 😄  That's the only time when the Passion may "lead" the action.

Edited March 25, 2021 by lordabdul

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

It's all supposed to be fun and games, so those who don't find Passions fun are either misunderstanding the mechanic, or just enjoy playing characters who act rather randomly.

"Nobody can make you do anything".  Including the dice.

[Kloster]

3 hours ago, lordabdul said:

It's all supposed to be fun and games,

Exactly. But it is not fun to have your character killed because you miss a parry because you failed an augment. This is exactly the answer I was given, and I have to agree: In RQ, combat is deadly, and missing a parry can lead to immediate dire consequences. Having a -10% or -20% to all your subsequent parries is close to a death penalty, even if your ransom is high because you can not even have the time to throw your weapons, yelling 'My ransom is 500L'. I am not even speaking of the consequences of a Fumble.

[French Desperate WindChild]

5 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

If you can't make most of those decisions yourself to create an interesting character who is "not me", find another game.  I suggest Backgammon.

or maybe...

if you cannot follow a rule for any reason to create an interesting play, don't use it.

At least, you don't deny the right of other to play in their own way the same game

[PhilHibbs]

6 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Using Passions and Runes to make most of the character decisions is roll playing, not role playing. 

If you can't make most of those decisions yourself to create an interesting character who is "not me", find another game.  I suggest Backgammon.

The most challenging parts of my life have revolved around dealing with the consequences of mistakes I've made, things I've said or done that I would never have thought would be the sort of thing that I would do. Our failings are often outside of our conscious control (or maybe just seem that way, maybe that's a lie we tell ourselves, but that's a whole other debate), and I don't see why that should be any different for our adventurers.

If you don't want to play nuanced and complex characters, find another game. I suggest D&D*.

* I hope it's obvious that that's just a reflection of RD's borderline insulting parting shot, a parody opinion, and not a serious statement.

[andyl]

2 hours ago, Kloster said:

Exactly. But it is not fun to have your character killed because you miss a parry because you failed an augment. This is exactly the answer I was given, and I have to agree:

Yep but not everything is combat. Trying an augment when you are doing something social would seem pretty safe. I find it difficult to see how a failed dance or sing or orate could lead to immediate death.

I think if I had players who were resistant to augments I would start by suggesting them outside combat.

[French Desperate WindChild]

3 hours ago, Kloster said:

But it is not fun to have your character killed because you miss a parry because you failed an augment.

what about the character killed because  the player miss a parry only because the player choose to not use the passion / rune augment

passion / rune can save a pc, passion / rune can kill a pc.

that is just the player's strategy + dices consequences

they are people who love a strategy only when this strategy succeed, and they are people who love strategy when they are good, even if the conclusion is bad.

i would say the first should not try a lot of augment rolls (the risk of being frustrated is important), when  the second should try it more often (the benefit/risk is positive)

Edited March 25, 2021 by French Desperate WindChild

[jajagappa]

9 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I completely disagree   Why not just have a bot roll the passions and make all the PC's decisions?  Then sit back and eat popcorn?

I know Greg, and others, like Pendragon.  I hate it.  Using Passions and Runes to make most of the character decisions is roll playing, not role playing.

Sorry you do. 

For me, invoking Passions and Runes is role playing.  Trying to game the odds by figuring out your chance of success is roll playing.

9 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

If you can't make most of those decisions yourself to create an interesting character who is "not me", find another game.  I suggest Backgammon.

That's just a jerk statement.  Keep it to yourself.

Edited March 25, 2021 by jajagappa

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, andyl said:

Yep but not everything is combat. Trying an augment when you are doing something social would seem pretty safe. I find it difficult to see how a failed dance or sing or orate could lead to immediate death.

I think if I had players who were resistant to augments I would start by suggesting them outside combat.

This is exactly what I suggested for the 2nd session. The consequences are less immediate (even if they can be dangerous), and can more easily be 'modified'.

43 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

what about the character killed because  the player miss a parry only because the player choose to not use the passion / rune augment

That means rolling above his skill (without modifier). Nobody ever complained about that. This is the value of the skill, not the consequence of a decision (and a bad roll).

43 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

passion / rune can save a pc, passion / rune can kill a pc.

that is just the player's strategy + dices consequences

Exactly.

43 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

they are people who love a strategy only when this strategy succeed, and they are people who love strategy when they are good, even if the conclusion is bad.

And there are cautious people that don't like to take too much risks, and there are more 'daredevilish' players and characters.

43 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

i would say the first should not try a lot of augment rolls (the risk of being frustrated is important), when  the second should try it more often (the benefit/risk is positive)

I would say (after discussing with my players) that what blocks them is not the frustration (or fear of), but the fear of the consequences, even if they know the mathematical gain is positive (This is not automatic, thus). This is why , as proposed by Andyl, I pushed toward the use in social or not too dangerous situations, where the risks is not too high and where I could more easily fudge the results. My hope was that they take the habit of using them.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Kloster
typing mistake

[Scotty]

Everyone (that means you), please remember to keep this a welcoming place for everyone.

[PhilHibbs]

You're absolutely right. I should not have let my hackles rise, and I apologise. I guess I rolled on a passion, which drove me to rash behaviour.

[Kloster]

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

what about the character killed because  the player miss a parry only because the player choose to not use the passion / rune augment

In fact, the main difference between those 2 situation I see is that:

- If you miss a parry because of a failed augment/rune/passion roll, you know you would have successed if you hadn't roll, whereas

- If you miss the parry roll, having not rolled for augment/rune/passion, you don't know if you would have had it.

Even if the mathematical gain is positive, the perception is not (for some persons).

Edited March 25, 2021 by Kloster

[PhilHibbs]

5 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Even if the mathematical gain is positive, the perception is not (for some persons).

Very true, the two are not equivalent. You could agonise all day over the things you didn't do. You didn't augment. You didn't cast a spell. You didn't call for DI. You didn't train up your skill last season. You didn't buy a magic potion. You didn't bribe the GM.

[Whizbang]

6 hours ago, andyl said:

Yep but not everything is combat. Trying an augment when you are doing something social would seem pretty safe. I find it difficult to see how a failed dance or sing or orate could lead to immediate death.

I think if I had players who were resistant to augments I would start by suggesting them outside combat

Our Babeester Gorian and our Sundome Templar both fumbled their Dance rolls at Apple Lane's Applefest and ended up both entangled beside each other to the Maypole on top of the sacred hill.

...then the Krarshtkids attacked.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Whizbang

[Manimati]

2 hours ago, Kloster said:

In fact, the main difference between those 2 situation I see is that:

- If you miss a parry because of a failed augment/rune/passion roll, you know you would have successed if you hadn't roll, whereas

- If you miss the parry roll, having not rolled for augment/rune/passion, you don't know if you would have had it.

Even if the mathematical gain is positive, the perception is not (for some persons).

This is precisely why Daniel Kahnemann got his Nobel prize in Economics in 2002. Humans don't always almost never behave rationally in the field of economics (and real life).

See his "Thinking fast and slow" book for an enlightening (dare I say illuminating) presentation of cognitive biases.

[Kloster]

8 minutes ago, Manimati said:

This is precisely why Daniel Kahnemann got his Nobel prize in Economics in 2002. Humans don't always almost never behave rationally in the field of economics (and real life).

See his "Thinking fast and slow" book for an enlightening (dare I say illuminating) presentation of cognitive biases.

I've never heard of this guy, but I wholeheartedly approve his comment. I will try to find the book.

[andyl]

19 minutes ago, Whizbang said:

Our Babeester Gorian and our Sundome Templar both fumbled their Dance rolls at Apple Lane's Applefest and ended up both entangled beside each other to the Maypole on top of the sacred hill.

...then the Krarshtkids attacked.

Well I am sure there were plenty of NPCs for the Krarshtkids to have a go at first so that they could get untangled a bit.

For me at least most dancers aren't going to be fully armed anyway. Yes there may be some cults that may have a ritualised dance with a weapon but in general most dances are not going to be with weapons. Which might have delayed the dancing PCs somewhat.

[Lordabdul]

5 hours ago, jajagappa said:

For me, invoking Passions and Runes is role playing.  Trying to game the odds by figuring out your chance of success is roll playing.

That tends to be my view on this as well, but I can't speak for my players. Most of them do use augments pretty often like I said though so I guess they like it. Different people will have different tastes -- some will be more or less combative, some will be more or less often looking at diplomatic solutions, and some will be using more or less Passions.

 

3 hours ago, Kloster said:

In fact, the main difference between those 2 situation I see is that:

It's interesting that you're arguing for the case of (1) failing a Passion roll, followed by (2) a failed roll that fell inside the 10% margin that makes you regret having roll a Passion. The probability for that is pretty small, and it's actually close to (or sometimes smaller than) the probability of rolling a Fumble! And I don't see people avoiding rolling at all by fear of getting a Fumble.

I understand that people tend to be very conservative (as @Manimati mentioned there's a lot of research on how our brains work against us, not just in economics but also in lots of behavioural psychology papers, and it's fascinating!) but I think I think it's not warranted. At least, it's not worth agonizing over, compared to the coolness factor of yelling some in-character taunt before attacking. 😄

But hey, there's nothing wrong with avoiding a game mechanic -- my same players avoid Call of Cthulhu magic like the plague! (although my guess is that it has more to do with how I shroud it in mystery and unknowns). And even if you avoid Passions, you can still roll skill augments and Runic Inspirations! That's still two-thirds of the game mechanic! 😉

Edited March 25, 2021 by lordabdul

[Whizbang]

9 minutes ago, andyl said:

For me at least most dancers aren't going to be fully armed anyway.

Morris dance has entered the chat.

[Manimati]

2 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

5 hours ago, jajagappa said:

For me, invoking Passions and Runes is role playing.  Trying to game the odds by figuring out your chance of success is roll playing.

That tends to be my view on this as well, but I can't speak for my players. Most of them do use augments pretty often like I said though so I guess they like it. Different people will have different tastes -- some will be more or less combative, some will be more or less often looking at diplomatic solutions, and some will be using more or less Passions.

One must not forget the the goal of role playing is to have fun.

Sometimes, a failed roll leads to a lot of role playing fun. That's good.

When a failed roll leads to players feeling miserable, the GM must find a way to bring fun back at the table. 

[Kloster]

2 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

It's interesting that you're arguing for the case of (1) failing a Passion roll, followed by (2) a failed roll that fell inside the 10% margin that makes you regret having roll a Passion. The probability for that is pretty small, and it's actually close to (or sometimes smaller than) the probability of rolling a Fumble! And I don't see people avoiding rolling at all by fear of getting a Fumble.

Completely agree here. I am not defending this option, and I, as a player and as a GM, am using augments and runes (less passions, but for other reasons. We already discussed about this on the french forum). I am just describing what my players did and how they reacted. As I already explained, I pushed them to used those rolls in social and non critical situations and I fudged some rolls, with the hope they take the habit to use them. It more or less worked.

[Kloster]

1 minute ago, Manimati said:

One must not forget the the goal of role playing is to have fun.

Sometimes, a failed roll leads to a lot of role playing fun. That's good.

Sooo right. I have several times decided NOT to roll and told the GM I failed, because I thought at that time it was funnier.

2 minutes ago, Manimati said:

When a failed roll leads to players feeling miserable, the GM must find a way to bring fun back at the table. 

Easier said than done when the character is dead, but I basically agree.

[Lordabdul]

14 minutes ago, Kloster said:

As I already explained, I pushed them to used those rolls in social and non critical situations and I fudged some rolls, with the hope they take the habit to use them. It more or less worked.

Good to know, thanks!  (I'm out of reactions for today so I can't just "like" your post 😉  )

[Kloster]

46 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Good to know, thanks!  (I'm out of reactions for today so I can't just "like" your post 😉  )

No problemo. Thanks for the Thanks.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

Augmenting a social (or "non-combat") skill is almost always safe, and the main situation where our group really likes the augment rules.   Often you have a "so-so" social skill, at 25% or so, and you'd like to use it, and get better, etc. for roleplaying and character development.

With a successful augment you have a roughly even chance to succeed, and get a check to improve.  Over time, that Dance or Intrigue or Devise can get up to a reasonable level and give your character more character.

Without augments you just fail a lot, seldom improve, and get frustrated.

We are less "sold" on combat augments.