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I've been toying with the idea of a solar campaign taking place in or at least focused on the characters and interests of characters from Dara Happa and/or other Pelorean areas therearound.

The only problem is I on't nkow how Dara Happan and other pelorian cultures build their society and establish their territories or anything (or much of anything about theit gods compared to the Orlanthi, or even if there is much going pon there that you can make a story about.

Do Dara Happans and other Pelorians have Tulas? Clans? Tribes? How do they think and what do they value?  I immagine Dara Happa resembles Esrolia more than Sartar but I don't know mucvh of anything about them ort how their society really works.

Then there is the problem of generating solar characters propperly, seeeing as the core book doesn't whant to do that aside from Grazers.

 

So I was wondering if any of you could could give me some tips, adviceand ideas, and maybe help me out a bit? Or is the whole idea hopless waste of time?

I know of the upcomming Cults book or Gods of Glorantha book (I'm unsure of the name) and don't mind waiting on it for solar cults but I thought I should mention the idea and ask for help now.

 

Regardless, I'd be grateful for any help or inspiation.

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Gorgorma and Monster Man... So, you have five very prominent goddesses in the big Dara Happan myth complex. You have Ourania, who rules the domestic life of the Sky Dome, Dendara, wife of Yelm, E

Yeah, Shargash is everywhere. Often secondary, sometimes primary.  Ernalda:  There's a basic and fundamental difference going on here. Orlanth's position as King of the Gods is not inherent.

OK. PG Wodehouse was a British author who wrote comedies about weird upper-class families, mostly. The most famous are the “Jeeves & Wooster” books, in which a phenomenally capable butler (Jeeves)

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I'd recommend reading the part in the Guide of Glorantha about Dara Happa. You could also try to find the campaign Dara Happa Stirs (published by Mongoose for their MRQ, so set in the 2nd Age, but usable) and the campaign Red Sun Rising (published by D101 Games for HQ, but usable). Both are out of print, unfortunately.

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/mongoose/dara-happa-stirs/

Dara Happans usually live in cities and organise themselves in strictly stratified associations.

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2 minutes ago, None said:

The only problem is I on't nkow how Dara Happan and other pelorian cultures build their society and establish their territories or anything (or much of anything about theit gods compared to the Orlanthi, or even if there is much going pon there that you can make a story about.

While set about 1300 years earlier, the Stafford Library books The Glorious ReAscent of Yelm and the Fortunate Succession provide a lot of useful insights on DH culture. 

Think urban city-states under a noble priesthood that rule the lands around, and all the other deities submit to the will of Yelm.  (i.e. Mesopotamian city-states are one usable analogy.)  There is little or no social mobility in these lands (the Lunars offer that pathway).  The peasants worship Lodril and the Grain Goddess.  The workers worship Lodril, his 10 Sons, the Lowfires, the River goddesses, and other deities of work.  Scribes worship Buserian (version of LM).  Wagoners worship Lokarnos.  The warriors worship their regimental deities, and their officers worship Pole Star.  Some priests worship the sky gods such as Dayzatar or Ourania.  The nobles worship Yelm and Dendara.

If you are playing in the 3rd Age (e.g. 1625), the Solar cultures have submitted to the Lunar Empire and the Red Goddess.  They exist underneath and largely continue in their form, but pay tribute to the Lunar Empire and offer magical power to the Red Moon.  This means that the Solar nobles likely focus more on their priestly roles and leading their cities then on the administration of the Lunar Empire (however see Tatius Assiday as the leading Solar noble from the leading Solar noble family who now led the consecration of the New Lunar Temple in Dragon Pass before the Dragonrise). 

Figure your nobles are patrons of many families scattered throughout the cities and lands (concentrated in villages).  They require tribute and duties (e.g. labor or services).

But there is always intrigue going on.  Many also worship Lunar deities.  There are Dart Wars (hidden wars of assassination, intrigue, etc.) to defeat rivals (without drawing the ire of the Red Emperor).  And pretty much anything you could have in a campaign you could build in.   

 

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I'm mostly focused on Solars without the Lunars as I feel the later alter things a lot and introduces many factors that significantly changes the feel and themes (not the least being Chaos) and places more focus on the Lunar ratherthan the Solar.

I might however be willing to be flexible if the payof is great enough and don't mind tibits about Lunar Dara Happa but my main concern is a Peloria and Dara Happa without the Lunars and what can be done with it.

 

I do remember something about sun or light towers hving something to do with territories but I don't remeber anything more or where exactly I heard it.

So, a lot of intrigue you say, and bo social mobility? Those things I definitely have to take into account.

 

It certinly feels like Solar Civilization and Dara Happa in Particular isn't as designed for adventure as the Orlanthi are but I don't want to let that stop me. A good campaign doesn't have to be all about tall adventures.

 

30 minutes ago, Runeblogger said:

I'd recommend reading the part in the Guide of Glorantha about Dara Happa. You could also try to find the campaign Dara Happa Stirs (published by Mongoose for their MRQ, so set in the 2nd Age, but usable) and the campaign Red Sun Rising (published by D101 Games for HQ, but usable). Both are out of print, unfortunately.

I'll keep that in mind but ... while I have the Guide to Glorantha as a PDF and intend to get a physical coppy eventually , those other two books might not be as easy. Although the title Dara Happa Stirs sounds like it could have potential.

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24 minutes ago, None said:

I'm mostly focused on Solars without the Lunars as I feel the later alter things a lot and introduces many factors that significantly changes the feel and themes (not the least being Chaos) and places more focus on the Lunar ratherthan the Solar.

Difficult to achieve in 3rd Age DH.  The Lunars rule.  The Red Emperor is the Emperor. 

I think you have a few options:

1) Stay localized to one of the DH cities (probably Yuthuppa with its star towers, or the Red Sun Rising book though that may no longer be available).  But you do have to consider how this actually maintains a degree of "solar" independence.

2) Develop Jarst.  Aside from a brief bit of text in the Guide, it is largely undeveloped.  It's outside the Lunar Empire, but likely has a solar culture that developed independently and with an infusion of Yelmic horse-rider culture in the Sheng Seleris years.

3) Move back to the 2nd Age (the Dara Happa Stirs campaign would provide you with a lot of guidance on freeing the solar empire from the clutches of the Sun Dragon). 

4) Develop an alternate DH history where the Red Moon never rose.  Yelmgatha became Emperor and stayed Emperor.  The Solar Empire rose again, but is now in its decadence.  But that's a lot of work.

5) Move out of DH and go to Fronela to the city of Southbank - an independent Yelm-worshipping city-state.

6) Go to Teshnos - a full Solar civilization.

Or shift to one of the solar horse-riding nomad areas: the Grazeland or Pent.

Edited by jajagappa
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Yes, I'm somewhat aware of the complications but I don't want to give up just like that.

I should mention that I should want that I want the campaign in a full blown solar civilization with a wide array of solar gods and yelm in his full glory. Not the, excuse me, watered down versions like the one the Grazelanders have. Plus I don't want it to be a nomadic or barbarian civilization.

I'm more interested in a Solar Esrolia than a Solar Praxif you want a paralel.

All of which beeing one of the reasons I mentioned Dara Happa specifically. (Another being that I don't know of many other Solar civilizaions.) The powerplays and inrigues of Dara Happpa also intrigue me. Although so do antagonizing the Orlanthi, something I'm not sure is easily done with a non-Lunar Dara Happa campaign.

 

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45 minutes ago, None said:

Yes, I'm somewhat aware of the complications but I don't want to give up just like that.

I should mention that I should want that I want the campaign in a full blown solar civilization with a wide array of solar gods and yelm in his full glory. Not the, excuse me, watered down versions like the one the Grazelanders have. Plus I don't want it to be a nomadic or barbarian civilization.

I'm more interested in a Solar Esrolia than a Solar Praxif you want a paralel.

Yes, all makes sense, and definitely encourage you to push ahead with the ideas.  You might see what John Biles has done as an alternate Lunar Empire as an example of what could potentially be done along an alternate trackline (not Solar, of course, but he's approached how things might have developed across the region.  https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/13123-alternate-lunar-empire/

Both Glorious ReAscent of Yelm and Fortunate Succession will help.  And if you don't want to go back to the 2nd Age (and don't want to try to develop 3 centuries of alternate history), consider the Jannisor period (described in the Redline History of the Lunar Empire, 1st Wane, in the Glorantha Sourcebook).  While the Red Moon has risen, it's a serious effort to restore the Solar Empire by the Tripolis with the aid of one of the great generals and heroquesters of that era.  It's a period where the DH Solars have to ally with Yelmalion temples, Sable Riders, elves, and even Orlanthi(!) to try to take down the Moon and reclaim the Imperial authority (perhaps resurrecting Yelmgatha from wherever in Hell, or the Red Moon, his soul may be held).

 

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20 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

I'd recommend reading the part in the Guide of Glorantha about Dara Happa.

Did you tha Part called Pelorian Culture under Major Cultures or the Part called Lunar Empire under Genertela (both in Volume I, I dind't find  anything in the Volume II Table of Contents that seemed to be directly about Peloria and Dara Happa)?

 

18 hours ago, jajagappa said:

And if you don't want to go back to the 2nd Age (and don't want to try to develop 3 centuries of alternate history)

I'm not against going back to the 2nd Age as such, although developeing 3 centuries of alternate history might be a bit much unless I really have to. Especially since I'm still trying to get a good enough feel for Solar Culture as to at least be moderately confident that I can run a campaign in it and make an interesting story.

That said, I have actually considered a campaing that takes place during the time before Time (and notn nessecarily placed after Orlan's appearance either)  so I don't mind a discussion on how to run a Solar campaign in all the different eras. Especially as I don't know which one would catch my eye the most yet.

 

---

 

So, about Solar culture and mindset. I know that it is very diferent from the Orlanthi one and I assume that Solars don't have anything like ' No one can make you do anything' or are nearly as rebelious (do that idea even exist to them?) but beyond that?

You said ther is no real social monility nut if there are intrigues and plays for power there must still be something and as there are tests to become the Emperor that there are several possible canidates. I'm assuming there are several houses or families that all have potential claim to the throne?

Then there are everyday customs and how they live. What do they eat and how do they handle and look upon things like sex, marriage, inheritance, gender,  disputes, crimes, people with ambitions, and so on. How do they treat and value, or evaluate for that matter, people from diferent social stations? Several of these things might seem unimortant for play but in my experience it is always good to know even if it never comes up as it helps you portray and handle the society the players have to move through and interact with.

Also, while a time period when things happen, so to speak, is desirable ceeping the scope low can be very enjoyable and I genrally like to start slow as not to trust to much at the players. Plus, even a campaign with big dramatic events and drama should have low scope things going on too.

 

So far I get the feel that having characters that are in some way closely tied to a fairly influential to straight up influential noble family, or even belonging to one, is the way to thoug. It should give the players enough freedom and ability to move and manouvre around in a Solar society (unless thre are temlpels that in and of themselves have a lot of clout as to effectively function like a noble family).

 

Edit: Then there is that bit about how only some solars live in the cities (doesn't each city have its own god?) and other solars live ioutside ther cities and I think I've heard that those two groups are very different in many ways and don't really like or respect each other.

 

Edit Edit:

20 hours ago, jajagappa said:

There are Dart Wars (hidden wars of assassination, intrigue, etc.) to defeat rivals (without drawing the ire of the Red Emperor).

Actually could anyone elaborate more on this and why they're called Dart Wars? I've been thinking a bit about it and just how much focus aree there on the Emperor. Oficially I'm assuming a lot but in practice, how much goes on behind his back?

 

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21 hours ago, None said:

I've been toying with the idea of a solar campaign taking place in or at least focused on the characters and interests of characters from Dara Happa and/or other Pelorean areas therearound.

It is worth getting RQ3's Sun County for inspiration and then forgetting most of it, as Dara Happa is different in many ways.

21 hours ago, None said:

The only problem is I on't nkow how Dara Happan and other pelorian cultures build their society and establish their territories or anything (or much of anything about theit gods compared to the Orlanthi, or even if there is much going pon there that you can make a story about.

Do Dara Happans and other Pelorians have Tulas? Clans? Tribes? How do they think and what do they value?  I immagine Dara Happa resembles Esrolia more than Sartar but I don't know mucvh of anything about them ort how their society really works.

Dara Happa is made of the Tripolis plus surrounding areas. so, people claim citizenship of one of the cities of the Tripolis, or one of the other minor cities, or one of the peasant areas surrounding those cities. Some might claim membership of the Oslir River instead, of course.

Dara Happan city life is very much as any other city life, but cleaner and more golden. The nobility descend from Yelm, or sons of Yelm, or Yelmic Heroes. They can recite their descent, generation by generation, to the founding deity.

Many citizens belong to Leagues, which are massive organisations, a bit like clans or tribes but not very much so. They are described in the Imperial Lunar Handbooks for HeroWars/HeroQuest.

There are a lot of non-citizens in the Dara Happan cities and they often descend from Heroes and other famous people. They have beggars, thieves and all the other kinds of people you would expect.

Dara Happan peasant life is focused on the lands outside the cities, the farmlands. They are typical farmers, but do not belong to clans or tribes, instead they are aligned with the cities, I think. They worship Lodril and the Heron Goddess. In many places, the rice paddies along the Oslir are very important, in other places the wheat fields of Pela are more important.

 

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1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Many citizens belong to Leagues, which are massive organisations, a bit like clans or tribes but not very much so. They are described in the Imperial Lunar Handbooks for HeroWars/HeroQuest.

 

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Dara Happan peasant life is focused on the lands outside the cities, the farmlands. They are typical farmers, but do not belong to clans or tribes, instead they are aligned with the cities, I think.

Yes this was one oth the things I was wondering about. I've got the feeling that clans and tribes are very much tied either to the orlanthy/storm people or barbarian style civilizations (well technically clans are ort of an extended family and can appear in cities too but thats a bit beside the point). The thing is though that clans and tribes are one of the easier ways to build motivations for the players and give tem something to interact with and build upon in the begining.

I don't feel that I know or understand the Dara Happan equivalents well enough though and I think that understanding that kind of social structure (and customs) is important (I very much doubt Dara Happans have a tradition of cattle raids the way the Orlanthi do but at the same time cattle raids and the like are a useful way to either give or motivate the players into something to do). Actually I feel that having a firm grasp of the social structure and customs of the Solars is even more important than with the Orlanthi as the for,er doesn't seem to have nearly an as free spirited and adventurous streak.

 

Unlike with Pavis and Sartar I also don't know of any natural interesting or adventurous locations in Peloria (like for instant the Big Ruble of Pavis). By which I mean, do one of you no of any?

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16 hours ago, soltakss said:

Dara Happan city life is very much as any other city life, but cleaner and more golden. The nobility descend from Yelm, or sons of Yelm, or Yelmic Heroes. They can recite their descent, generation by generation, to the founding deity.

Lineage and family prestige does seem to be more important to the Solars and the later is something I should be able to work with. Actually thinking about it. When speaking about the noble families I should probably think of them as clans in their own right.

 

Edit: Actually, could anyone  tell me little about 2nd and 1st age Peloria? I've been thinking about the Golden Age too with the incrusionof Water but  the issue with going too far back is that there isn't as much to interact with.

 

Edit Edit: Oh, and one more thing. I checked out Runeblogger's link to the Gloranthan Adventures 2 Red Sun Rising now available thread  and noticed that all the adventures talked about associations tin a way that makes me assume they're something similar to Orlanthi clans or tribes in some ways but more political and more like an allianxce or a guild.

Could someone elaborate more on that? Is it a known Dara Happan thing or invented for this adventure?

 

One More Edit: I doubt anyone will answer by now but I'm still going to add on more question. Can anyone tell me a bit about Yelmic justice and how it differs from Orlanthi justice? Joerg mentioned it a little bit one year ago but didn't say all that much as he felt too partial against it. Would anyone else be willing to try and explain it or tell me where I could find more information about it? So far I've been unable to.

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15 hours ago, None said:

Edit: Actually, could anyone  tell me little about 2nd and 1st age Peloria? I've been thinking about the Golden Age too with the incrusionof Water but  the issue with going too far back is that there isn't as much to interact with.

Most of what we know about First and Second Age Peloria is in The Fortunate Succession, a list of the Dara Happan emperors and what happened during their reigns. It is a Stafford Library book, and one of the more accessible ones in that series. The focus is very much on Dara Happa, but its rivals get some attention, too.

The boondocks of Peloria don't get much attention, though, unless some of the major powers extend their influence there.

The historical maps in the Guide (and also the Argan Argar Atlas) offer some idea about the bigger political entities in the region at selected few times. Fortunate Succession is based on Greg Stafford's handdrawn political map overlays which follow the history in 50 year steps, and has quite a few more than the maps in the Guide, though a lot less pretty.

 

The Dara Happans think of their history in dynasties, and usually dynasties only change in reaction to some major mishap for the Empire. They start under the horse warlords (and a few other homebrew warlords) taking the title of Emperor, then the Khordavu dynasty which emerged after the Second Council overcame the horse warlord forces, and which joined the Bright Empire of Nysalor, then a very short period of Orlanthi occupation which is still remembered as if it happened only a decade ago, then a dynasty that rebelled against this occupation leading Dara Happa into the Second Age. This dynasty crumbled after repelling an Aldryami reforestation under the onslaught of new ideas brought by the Spolite heresy. A new dynasty under a demigod son of Raibanth brought forth one of the most successful martial emperors of Dara Happa, but after contributing to the end of the Spolite Empire it was taken over by the Dragon Sun Emperor and became a part of the EWF. After a successful rebellion (try to get your hand on MRQ's "Dara Happa Stirs") Dara Happa was part of the forces that fought the EWF, and after its loss of the Dragonspeakers undertook the approach of the Invincible Golden Horde that triggered the Dragonkill War.

The Spolite Empire was overcome by the Carmanians, whose Shahs get their own list of rulers. There is a lot less information on the Spolites, just a few emperor names, if you are lucky with a one-liner explanation.

There is a point when the Emperor of Dara Happa marries the only daughter of the Shah of Carmania, and the three sons from that union become Emperor of Dara Happa, Shah of Carmania and King of Saird, at times united against the common enemy, the dragonspeakers of the EWF, at times in bitter conflict with one another.

 

 

15 hours ago, None said:

Edit Edit: Oh, and one more thing. I checked out Runeblogger's link to the Gloranthan Adventures 2 Red Sun Rising now available thread  and noticed that all the adventures talked about associations tin a way that makes me assume they're something similar to Orlanthi clans or tribes in some ways but more political and more like an allianxce or a guild.

The Associations were presented in the Pelorian material for HQ1, which took directions not aligned with the canon in the Guide. Not sure whether the Associations fell of the canon wagon or not.

They are basically enterprises by noble houses in the Empire which connect lesser houses or guilds, weird magical projects, factions in various cults' priesthoods, and economical ventures. All very Mafia-like, though more above the table.

The Orlanthi don't usually have the equivalent of Associations, unless they have a stable over-structure, like during the Second Council, the Kingdom of Orlanthland, the EWF, and possibly during the adjustment Wars in Kethaela. Argrath's White Bull Society may be seen as a kernel for an Association.

 

15 hours ago, None said:

Could someone elaborate more on that? Is it a known Dara Happan thing or invented for this adventure?

There is one HQ1 era book - not canonical any more - that explores an Association. Weird stuff, with some gems and some incomprehensible, macchiavellan structures. "Champions of the Red Moon"

 

15 hours ago, None said:

One More Edit: I doubt anyone will answer by now but I'm still going to add on more question. Can anyone tell me a bit about Yelmic justice and how it differs from Orlanthi justice? Joerg mentioned it a little bit one year ago but didn't say all that much as he felt too partial against it. Would anyone else be willing to try and explain it or tell me where I could find more information about it? So far I've been unable to.

That was me commenting on a line from Glorious ReAscent of Yelm, which has the ruling principle of "denseb", which translates as "measured justice from above". Which an Orlanthi understands as autocratic rule, absolutism. Slightly more humane than Fonritian slavocracy, but geared for the benefit of the 0.1%.

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4 hours ago, Joerg said:

They are basically enterprises by noble houses in the Empire which connect lesser houses or guilds, weird magical projects, factions in various cults' priesthoods, and economical ventures. All very Mafia-like, though more above the table.

 

So it's like an urban patron-client network?

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5 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

So it's like an urban patron-client network?

The Leagues or Associations were the methods by which the Yelm nobles ruled across the land.  A given noble family would rule:  1) their family/lineage; 2) various temples; 3) various lands (and the villages within); 4) one or multiple ventures - trading initiatives, cities, guilds, or whatever.  Definitely a patron-client relationship and network, but not just urban - they rule lands as well (think of Yelm dividing the world among his overseers). 

The nobles in turn are ruled by the Satraps (in the Lunar Empire) and all ruled by the Emperor.

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9 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

The Leagues or Associations were the methods by which the Yelm nobles ruled across the land.  A given noble family would rule:  1) their family/lineage; 2) various temples; 3) various lands (and the villages within); 4) one or multiple ventures - trading initiatives, cities, guilds, or whatever.  Definitely a patron-client relationship and network, but not just urban - they rule lands as well (think of Yelm dividing the world among his overseers). 

The nobles in turn are ruled by the Satraps (in the Lunar Empire) and all ruled by the Emperor.

Are the associations alongside the feudal/tenant relations and venture patronages, or are they synonymous? 

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I must confess I am surprised. I honestly thought this thread was dead. I suppose I'm a bit to impatient, or insecure. Regardless I'm grateful for our respones, thank you.

 

On 4/1/2021 at 9:07 PM, jajagappa said:

Both Glorious ReAscent of Yelm and Fortunate Succession will help.

 

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Most of what we know about First and Second Age Peloria is in The Fortunate Succession, a list of the Dara Happan emperors and what happened during their reigns. It is a Stafford Library book, and one of the more accessible ones in that series. The focus is very much on Dara Happa, but its rivals get some attention, too.

Yes, I did consider it once but I ah, I kind of stopped reading the description once I came to "Official Lunar Imperial List of Emperors“ and just assumed os was solely focused on the Lunar Empire. I think I have to re-evaluate the descission not to buy it back then. Oops.

 

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

then a very short period of Orlanthi occupation which is still remembered as if it happened only a decade ago

I'm actually not surprised. I have gotten the impression that the Dara Happan's are very proud (actually are there ay other civilizations they truly respect?), still this part is interesting as one of the possible senarios I've been juggling in my head was with the Orlanthi as the active agressors attcing Dara Happa (so in a way the reverse of the current situation with the Lunars).

Of course, I'm also considering a period where the the Solars are agressing the Orlanthi more or less like now but with no or at least less Lunar and more Solar. Or a campaign that leaves the Orlanthi alone goes somewhere else entirely (including placing the campaign before time, although I guess I don't have a lot of material to work with then, do I?). I'm even considering placing it after the fall of the Lunar Empire.

 

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

After a successful rebellion (try to get your hand on MRQ's "Dara Happa Stirs") Dara Happa was part of the forces that fought the EWF, and after its loss of the Dragonspeakers undertook the approach of the Invincible Golden Horde that triggered the Dragonkill War.

Yes I've been recomended that book several imes now. Unfortunately I dn't think it will be easyto get ahold of. Albeit it does seem like a period with a lot of potential for a Solar campaign.

What did the Dara Hapan's have against the Dragon Emperor though? Wasnt he the Sun Dragon, or at least an Initiate of the Sun Dragon? Meaning he was still affiliated with the sun?

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

There is a point when the Emperor of Dara Happa marries the only daughter of the Shah of Carmania, and the three sons from that union become Emperor of Dara Happa, Shah of Carmania and King of Saird, at times united against the common enemy, the dragonspeakers of the EWF, at times in bitter conflict with one another.

This seems like an interesting period too although I guess IOt technically part of the same period as Dara Happa Stirs?

 

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Associations were presented in the Pelorian material for HQ1, which took directions not aligned with the canon in the Guide. Not sure whether the Associations fell of the canon wagon or not.

They are basically enterprises by noble houses in the Empire which connect lesser houses or guilds, weird magical projects, factions in various cults' priesthoods, and economical ventures. All very Mafia-like, though more above the table.

The Orlanthi don't usually have the equivalent of Associations, unless they have a stable over-structure, like during the Second Council, the Kingdom of Orlanthland, the EWF, and possibly during the adjustment Wars in Kethaela. Argrath's White Bull Society may be seen as a kernel for an Association.

 

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:
1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

So it's like an urban patron-client network?

The Leagues or Associations were the methods by which the Yelm nobles ruled across the land.  A given noble family would rule:  1) their family/lineage; 2) various temples; 3) various lands (and the villages within); 4) one or multiple ventures - trading initiatives, cities, guilds, or whatever.  Definitely a patron-client relationship and network, but not just urban - they rule lands as well (think of Yelm dividing the world among his overseers). 

Canon or not it is still usefull if you wat a more urban and 'civilized' feel rather than 'barbarian' one to an area or civilization. (It also feels vaguely Roman in some ways but I guess thats not really important.)

Allowing several familes to be involved in the same Association (unfortunately I think I need to come up with a better name than Associations) makes it very easy to have different families be both allies and rivals at the same time, in several different ways and increase the back-stabbing and plotting even more. Or I could just get in over my head and make things too convulted like this:

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

incomprehensible, macchiavellan structures

It does however open up more lines for events and characters to interact, connect and intersect over.

 

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Are the associations alongside the feudal/tenant relations and venture patronages, or are they synonymous? 

I'm interpretating it as the former, that is alongside.

 

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

That was me commenting on a line from Glorious ReAscent of Yelm, which has the ruling principle of "denseb", which translates as "measured justice from above". Which an Orlanthi understands as autocratic rule, absolutism. Slightly more humane than Fonritian slavocracy, but geared for the benefit of the 0.1%.

Sounds perfectly bronze age to me. Seriously though, it doesn't seem thatr different from how I understand Orlanthi justice. Doesn't the Orlanthi take a matter to the clan ring or tribal king, who then makes a ruling (after the ustomary bribes of course)?

Im interpreting it as Yelmic justice is more organized and more compulsory than Orlanthi justice. Yelmic doesn't wait for you to come to it, so if you don't want its involvment you better resolve your disputes discreetly. Assuming both parties are of roughly the same status of course.

I'm guessing that if the injuried party is of significantly lower status then Yelmic justice has a tendency to sudenly not be quite as vigilant or become a lot slower.

 

---

Are the Dara Happans based on a mix of the Romans and Babylonians?

 

Edit: Still not much on Dara Happan daily life and cstoms, or their values. Is there not much material on that? Or is it just hidden inside the Guide to Glorantha (aside from superficial descriptions I mean) and I'm just missing it? Because that is entirely possible.

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29 minutes ago, None said:

Are the Dara Happans based on a mix of the Romans and Babylonians?

And Sumerians (lot of that in DH), Assyrians, Persians (lot of that in Lunar Empire), bits of Egypt (e.g. the double crown), bits of Vedic India. 

30 minutes ago, None said:

Still not much on Dara Happan daily life and cstoms, or their values.

Which part?  Urban life (focused on Yelm, the nobles, the priesthoods) or rural life (focused on Lodril and typical peasant culture)?

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1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Are the associations alongside the feudal/tenant relations and venture patronages, or are they synonymous? 

There is nothing "feudal" about the tenant system, whether in Orlanthi or in Dara Happan lands. Dara Happa is a severe case of reign by divine grace and ancestry.

Land use and operation is directed by the Overseers, with their lesser priesthoods overseeing the bureaucracy and other such coordination no rural community really needs or has asked for, outside of areas depending on artificial irrigation. 

 

5 minutes ago, None said:

Yes, I did consider it once but I ah, I kind of stopped reading the description once I came to "Official Lunar Imperial List of Emperors“ and just assumed os was solely focused on the Lunar Empire. I think I have to re-evaluate the descission not to buy it back then. Oops.

It has disappointingly little on the Lunar emperorship - seven pages on the red emperor and five pages on the new empire.

But yes, describing Gloranthan history as "res gestae regi", the deeds of rulers, is a trend both capturing the spirit of the inhabitants and somewhat unsatisfying if your focus is less imperial. The Seshnelan King List or the material in History of the Heortling Peoples is the same, with only very occasional boxed sections giving some information on the general population or non-reigning movers and shakers.

 

5 minutes ago, None said:

I'm actually not surprised. I have gotten the impression that the Dara Happan's are very proud (actually are there ay other civilizations they truly respect?), still this part is interesting as one of the possible senarios I've been juggling in my head was with the Orlanthi as the active agressors attcing Dara Happa (so in a way the reverse of the current situation with the Lunars).

The Dara Happans had been steadfast allies of Gbaji (whom they called Nysalor) to the bitter end, and the bitter end was conquest by the formerly suppressed hill barbarians, taking back the plunder robbed by the forces of the Bright Empire and demanding a modest regular tribute in repairs to the damage done to them by Palangio's rule of terror (such as magical drought).

 

5 minutes ago, None said:

Of course, I'm also considering a period where the the Solars are agressing the Orlanthi more or less like now but with no or at least less Lunar and more Solar.

That's more or less the tenor I chose for my "Lunar occupied Heortland" game, with the royal Tarshite faction mainly concerned with expanding their dominion over their region, and the Heartlander Yelmites seeking retribution for their defeats against Arkat, the Sun Dragon, and in the Dragonkill, willing to ruin the homeland of the enemy deity to eliminate it from the world altogether, undoing a Compromise that their god should never have agreed to, if you asked them (and why wouldn't you?).

 

5 minutes ago, None said:

Or a campaign that leaves the Orlanthi alone goes somewhere else entirely (including placing the campaign before time, although I guess I don't have a lot of material to work with then, do I?). I'm even considering placing it after the fall of the Lunar Empire.

Before Time would be the conflict between the Anaxial dynasty emperors and the Vingkotlings, which saw destruction of the southernmost city claimed by the Emperor and then destruction of Orlanthi invaders towards their secondmost southern city. That's both before and concurrent with the story line of Six Ages: Ride Like the Wind.

 

5 minutes ago, None said:

Yes I've been recomended that book several imes now. Unfortunately I dn't think it will be easyto get ahold of. Albeit it does seem like a period with a lot of potential for a Solar campaign.

The campaign starts in the reign of the Dragon Sun, and the (NPC) hero of the campaign founds the new Dara Happan Yelmic dynasty - the son of the former (crippled) heir to the empire and a commoner woman.

 

5 minutes ago, None said:

What did the Dara Hapan's have against the Dragon Emperor though? Wasn't he the Sun Dragon, or at least an Initiate of the Sun Dragon? Meaning he was still affiliated with the sun?

He was an ally, or possibly an instrument, of the EWF and their weird draconic ways. The Dragon is an ancient symbol of the Dara Happan emperor - the overcome dragon became the Throne of Yelm. Or possibly Murharzarm became emperor and shed his draconic skin for a human appearance? The Kralori tell the story of the Golden Age from the draconic perspective...

Whether the Dara Happans as a nation were against the new ways we cannot say. What we can tell is that the dispossessed priesthood of the old ways which had been devalued plotted revenge. Think about Akhenaten's reform, and how much Tut-anch-Amun had to yield to the priesthood of the old ways before being murdered and replaced by the head priest of the old ways.

5 minutes ago, None said:

This seems like an interesting period too although I guess IOt technically part of the same period as Dara Happa Stirs?

Sarenesh was the son of Karvanyar the Dragonslayer. The division of Peloria among his three sons would have been the sequel to the events in Dara Happa Stirs.

 

5 minutes ago, None said:

Canon or not it is still usefull if you wat a more urban and 'civilized' feel rather than 'barbarian' one to an area or civilization. (It also feels vaguely Roman in some ways but I guess thats not really important.)

Allowing several familes to be involved in the same Association (unfortunately I think I need to come up with a better name than Associations) makes it very easy to have different families be both allies and rivals at the same time, in several different ways and increase the back-stabbing and plotting even more. Or I could just get in over my head and make things too convulted like this:

It does however open up more lines for events and characters to interact, connect and intersect over.

 

5 minutes ago, None said:

I'm interpretating it as the former, that is alongside.

 

5 minutes ago, None said:

Sounds perfectly bronze age to me.

Yes - Storm Worship appears to be an Iron Age phenomenon, at least in Europe.

5 minutes ago, None said:

Seriously though, it doesn't seem thatr different from how I understand Orlanthi justice. Doesn't the Orlanthi take a matter to the clan ring or tribal king, who then makes a ruling (after the ustomary bribes of course)?

The Orlanthi has the right to appeal, and even the right to choose who to appeal to. "Follow chosen leaders" and all that. The Dara Happan has his superiors who deal with his case, likely by punishing complaints against social superiors without hearing the case.

 

5 minutes ago, None said:

Im interpreting it as Yelmic justice is more organized and more compulsory than Orlanthi justice. Yelmic doesn't wait for you to come to it, so if you don't want its involvment you better resolve your disputes discreetly. Assuming both parties are of roughly the same status of course.

As long as both parties are of equal standing, appealing to an overseer for justice isn't that bad. One of the Ten Tests of Murharzarm is the riddle of the 19 gazzam, a variation of the tale of the 17 camels which should be distributed so that one heir receives half the herd, one a third, and one a ninth. The Test somehow allows Murharzarm to add a gazzam of his own and come away with that gazzam and one out of the herd as payment for the decision - I never managed to make that equation in simple fractions, but this illustrates quite well how an appeal to Yelmic authority should work out in the ideal case.

But Yelmic justice can be drastic, too - including the total elimination of irritants, already in the Ten Tests. Or it can be inconsequential - the punishment for polygamy is to have multiple wives. ()t almost has to be misogynistic...)

 

5 minutes ago, None said:

I'm guessing that if the injuried party is of significantly lower status then Yelmic justice has a tendency to sudenly not be quite as vigilant or become a lot slower.

The (inevitable) misrule of the Yelmic class is periodically overrun by peasant revolts, when docile Lodril becomes the unruly rebel leader, and the families who provided the overseer and his bureaucrats will have to find a new family member to replace the deceased predecessor and rebuild the torched palace, after burning or otherwise horribly slaughtering the ring leaders of that rebellion.

The Lunar Way has provided an alternative for those uprisings and  their leaders. But then, cooperating with a rival family of the previous overseer was an option prior to Lunar reign, too. Formalized "Dart Competitions" only started in the last years of the First Wane, and again mainly as an instrument for the ruling class.

 

5 minutes ago, None said:

Are the Dara Happans based on a mix of the Romans and Babylonians?

I am inclined to say neither, and yes.

Throughout Peloria, Yelmic Overseers (which means Dara Happan nobility) organize cities and whatever communal works (mainly irrigation and fortification, rarely road-building) there is to be made. A Dara Happan trained bureaucracy (the priesthood of Buserian) does the actual administration, and a lesser priesthood of Yelm officiates in all officially tolerated religious rites, aided by holy people actually belonging to the cults of the deities sacrificed to. This is about the emperor cult that Nero envisioned for himself, but never quite achieved.

The Babylonians had a couple of imperial periods, which makes them similar to the Dara Happans in this respect, but you probably need to mix in the imperial periods of Akkad and Assur to match the Dara Happan "continuity".

The Egyptian continuity with its foreign dynasties - including charioteer nomads - and a single major river as the lifeline for most of the empire is in many regards a better parallel, but there is no surrounding desert, and there are too many other polities adjacent.

The Roman Empire is a fairly bad fit with its Republican roots, but like I said above, the kind of empire Nero envisioned might be a good fit. The Byzantine (East Roman) Greek Empire with its court rites of the Dark Ages is a fairly good parallel, but way too modern (except for the fact that the general regression also affected them), but both were possibly only by control of the Mediterranean, or at least the Aegaean and Black Sea, and collapsed when that control broke away.

The Indian subcontinent offers quite a few good parallels in the younger Bronze Age, the Iron Age and the successor states period. Possibly well into the early Byzantine era, too. Dara Happa doesn't have a monsoon, though, rather the floodings of all the rivers (not just the Nile) from rain and snow falling off-screen.

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25 minutes ago, jajagappa said:
57 minutes ago, None said:

Still not much on Dara Happan daily life and cstoms, or their values.

Which part?  Urban life (focused on Yelm, the nobles, the priesthoods) or rural life (focused on Lodril and typical peasant culture)?

Both actually but mostly the former (urban life). I'm trying to grasp the atmosphere of Dara Happa and its inhabitants. How characters from ther would view and relate to the world and different behaviours and so on.

Then there is also things like how I remember having read somewhere that the Lunars (and therefore presumamly the Solars) had trouble understanding how decentralized Orlanth worship is or something like that. Or how the Orlanthi don't get that angry ovrea cattle raid but somehow I doubrt the Dara Happans (urban or rural) would lokk at such actions the same way.  Or how the Orlanthi are described sa realy lonving feasts and festivals but the Dara Happans (even though I have a hard time beliving it) are far to stiff and serious to like either.

 

-----

Since I don't want to dublepost I'm also putting this here.

Shargash, I keep forgettting to ask about him but I've understoodthat he and his city especially are, quite special. How so? I only know that ther is something about demons and that he apparetly was quite different before the Gods War.

Second. Ernalda.

I've heard that Yelm and the Dara Happands don't really like or trust the cult of Ernalda but the Ernalda cult itself insists Yelm is one of her husbands. So, details? Please? How come and which one is it? Both?

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Shargash:

Shargash's holy city, Alkoth, was made from a bead from his necklace, or perhaps a bangle, that fell as he was slaying some monster. Shargash took it and placed it around some of his chosen people and made that the first of his Enclosures/temples. Alkoth has indestructible walls of green with a gemstone-like luster. The city gates are all tunnels underneath them. 

Alkoth is a magical place, part in the Middle World and part in Shargash's corner of Hell. Everyone who lives in the city is thus metaphysically dead, and everyone who enters for the first time receives a quick funeral service. Demons walk the streets and mingle among the people, and the people are like demons themselves. There are two acknowledged rulers of Alkoth, the Red King and the Green King, and a third secret ruler, the Black King (this section is a bit dubious). 

Shargash is married to both Biselenslib, the bird-legged rice goddess, and Oslira, the mighty river that Alkoth is on. Alkoth is thus surrounded by marshes and is notoriously difficult to successfully besiege. 

Shargash is a god who is normally kept chained and is unleashed only when divine order is upset. His thunder and lightning tear through the greatest of monsters, but his only solution is violence, and Oslira defeated him and made him her husband long ago. In cosmological terms, Shargash is the final stage of the Perfect Empire- no more wise emperor, no more just emperor, just violence alone holding the universe to its center. 

Shargash, so they say, destroyed the entire world to bring it into his Enclosure, to hold it safe from a monster of Chaos. They say the monster swallowed him and he tore it apart from the inside. 

Historically, Shargash has been associated with the military of Dara Happan cities and I think particularly with the professional soldier. This has receded under the Lunars, and I think Shargash is only strong when the central authority is weak or nonexistent and citizen-soldiers are not a practical option for a single city-state. 

Shargash is known as Tolat in other parts of Glorantha, and has a fertility/sexual component that in Dara Happa is sublimated into him having a big club. 

Deep lore: Shargash is a dying-and-rising god who moves between the sky, the middle world, and the underworld. As such, he carries a great deal of magical power and knowledge which conventional society cannot accept. Shargash is a repository for all the urges Dara Happans cannot acknowledge, and so he is an ever-present contrary figure. 

His followers are stereotypically brutes and bullies. I would expand this to include more general 'contrary' figures who aren't quite full Tricksters. I would also suggest his temples offer sanctuary to people in need- with the caveat that this requires death, which may be made literal at any time. 

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4 minutes ago, None said:

Both actually but mostly the former (urban life). I'm trying to grasp the atmosphere of Dara Happa and its inhabitants. How characters from ther would view and relate to the world and different behaviours and so on.

Old Dara Happan cities are extremely stratified - think Jim Crow laws turned up to eleven. There were parts of the cities where the street sweepers were (and possibly had to be) of Yelmic descent.

That said, the Yelm-descended families are very much a minority. The vast majority in urban Dara Happa are worker class, Lodril-worshiping folk - privileged workers, and less privileged laborers, then non-citizens, and finally slaves.

The Lunars aren't the first illumination movement that attracts lowborn mystics and wannabe mystics ("disciple") into mobs defying the order of the city. While they might be classified as non-citizens, their religious zeal makes them part of something like a temple. Unlike the licit cults (of the top three layers of the Gods Wall, and the propitiatory rites for the lowest layer) there is no lesser Yelmic priesthood involved in these mobs. Instead, there are more or less illuminated agitators and teachers spreading their disruptive enlightenment to the masses.

Practically everybody in a city is a tenant, with the possible exception of the upper ranks of the lesser priesthood, and of course excluding the upper nobility. Away from the Tripolis, local families with ancestral ties to other priesthoods may rank among local nobility and may have risen into the Buserium layer of lesser priesthood. In Alkoth, the ruling families all claim descent from the city god (in one of his colored aspects). In Raibanth claims for descent from Raibamus may be rather tenuuous, as the former seat of imperial power has been conquered and overrun many times. Yuthuppan top nobility may have fared a little better, but may have married daughters of currently powerful overlords from non-Yelmic families. But then, lower maternal descent has not been much of a hindrance for many a Dara Happan dynasty.

 

4 minutes ago, None said:

Then there is also things like how I remember having read somewhere that the Lunars (and therefore presumamly the Solars) had trouble understanding how decentralized Orlanth worship is or something like that. Or how the Orlanthi don't get that angry ovrea cattle raid but somehow I doubrt the Dara Happans (urban or rural) would lokk at such actions the same way.  Or how the Orlanthi are described sa realy lonving feasts and festivals but the Dara Happans (even though I have a hard time beliving it) are far to stiff and serious to like either.

The less privileged the status is in Dara Happa, the lustier people get. Lodril and Oria have orgiastic rites, with massive lay worshiper participation under the auspices of the holy folk of the cults leading these antics and the Buserium lesser Yelmic priesthood failing to instil a modicum of restraint. If members of the higher nobility partake in such activities, it is supposed to happen incognito. Or at least under the pretense of incognito. Or claiming Lunar spiritual business or enlightenment.

Carnival can have quite varied faces - Samba dancers of Rio de Janeiro just as much as demonically disguised folk in Swabia resembling the Grampus - wearing the Monster Man masks of the aspect of Lodril feared by the Yelmic elite, but tolerated in the religious rites.

Away from the Yelmic core lands, things get even earthier. Including rites with orgiastic human sacrifice, like the Heron Dance of Darjiin.

 

4 minutes ago, None said:

Shargash, I keep forgettting to ask about him but I've understoodthat he and his city especially are, quite special. How so? I only know that ther is something about demons and that he apparetly was quite different before the Gods War.

The Red God and the Green City have been associated for a long time, but IMO the Green God (nowadays an aspect of Shargash) was the steadfast son of Yelm who stood in the way of Umath's rise into the sky. Both Umath and the southern son of Yelm crashed into the north, dipped into the Underworld, and the defender of Dara Happa rose as a red god, still of strength, but taking on some aspect of the Underworld which may always have been a hidden part of his nature (much like his uncle Lodril as Monster Man), but from an even deeper Hell. The Red God then took up the position in the sky after the disruption of the Perfect Sky, and may have cycled through the upper world sky and the Underworld already prior to Orlanth slaying the Emperor and the disintegration of Yelm. (The Dragon returning from the Underworld in the wake of Orlanth's initiation, reclaiming the sovereignty taken from it when Murharzarm made it his throne, may have played a role in this that neither the Dara Happans nor the Orlanthi are willing to acknowledge.)

The celestial aspect of Shargash faded away after Orlanth's conquest of the Sky World. Instead, hellish Shadzor emerged from the Green City with his race of antigods, the Shadzorings. A God Learner would have had a hard time to differentiate between these antigods and Zorak Zorani trolls, but for the uz of the Silver/Gray Age and the Second Council there was no recognition of kinship with those monsters from the Underworld. A different stance towards fire may have been the reason.

 

 

4 minutes ago, None said:

Second. Ernalda.

I've heard that Yelm and the Dara Happands don't really like or trust the cult of Ernalda but the Ernalda cult itself insists Yelm is one of her husbands. So, details? Please? How come and which one is it? Both?

Ernalda is the source of sovereignty from the Earth. That concept is alien to the Dara Happans, whose celestial emperor claims rulership of everything beneath himself (by right of conquest, if you look at the oldest myths that the Yelmites at best whisper about). The Yelmic religion recognizes Oria, the bountiful earth, the lewd sister of Dendara and lusty wife of Lodril and many others, but not as a source of sovereignty, only of sustenance - the ultimate Fuel, regrowing whatever the Flame consumes. She is one of the (many) concubines of Yelm - blessed by his fertilizing gaze and warmth, the mother/template for all land goddesses.

Then there is Dendara, the Earth/Fuel ascended into the sky. (Sharing her celestial body with Entekos, the Good Air, twin sister and/or firstborn daughter of Umath, not rebellious but submissive to Brightface's sovereignty, or possibly the lowered body of the White Queen who preceded Brightface's placement at he top of the visible Sky.) Her innocence is of a different direction than that of Voria, and her dark twin Gorgorma is different from Babeester Gor. This has been discussed recently.

Dendara is the confirmation of Yelm's sovereignty, but not its source (any more).

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53 minutes ago, Eff said:

Historically, Shargash has been associated with the military of Dara Happan cities and I think particularly with the professional soldier. This has receded under the Lunars, and I think Shargash is only strong when the central authority is weak or nonexistent and citizen-soldiers are not a practical option for a single city-state. 

So he is practically one of Dara Happa's war gods. Possibly its only god that is in a way purely a war god, no more like a death and war god with a bit of violent trickster for good measure.

Does this mean he has a pressence in all of Dara Happas armies or is he more like the god of that one force of warriors you really don't want top have to use?

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:
Quote

Or a campaign that leaves the Orlanthi alone goes somewhere else entirely (including placing the campaign before time, although I guess I don't have a lot of material to work with then, do I?). I'm even considering placing it after the fall of the Lunar Empire.

Before Time would be the conflict between the Anaxial dynasty emperors and the Vingkotlings, which saw destruction of the southernmost city claimed by the Emperor and then destruction of Orlanthi invaders towards their secondmost southern city. That's both before and concurrent with the story line of Six Ages: Ride Like the Wind.

I actually meant before Orlanth appeared (or possible when he just had appeared), not that this period doesn't have potential too.

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Or it can be inconsequential - the punishment for polygamy is to have multiple wives. ()t almost has to be misogynistic...)

Now I have to ask. I thought the Dara Happans where monogamous but now you makeit sound like they are somewhere between polygamous and monogamous in theory but polygamous in practice (and actually, the distinction between the two can be important.).

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

As long as both parties are of equal standing, appealing to an overseer for justice isn't that bad. One of the Ten Tests of Murharzarm is the riddle of the 19 gazzam, a variation of the tale of the 17 camels which should be distributed so that one heir receives half the herd, one a third, and one a ninth. The Test somehow allows Murharzarm to add a gazzam of his own and come away with that gazzam and one out of the herd as payment for the decision - I never managed to make that equation in simple fractions, but this illustrates quite well how an appeal to Yelmic authority should work out in the ideal case.

That does seemto be a perfect example of what would be described as someone beeing clever in ancient myths.

 

Actually a lot of Dara Happa's stories seem to be less about being adventurous and heroic (OIrlanthi) and more about performing the duties and the tasks given to you and dealing with the conondrums and obstacles that may appear while doing so.

 

(Actually this reminds me of a story I once heard about the earely times around the yelow river in china. Put extreley shortly and as I remember it: There was a man who said he would tame the yellow river (stop it from overflowing dagerously) and was promised riches if he succeded but death if he failed. He failed. Later his son wanted to try the same and got the same offer. He used irrigation and succeded.

Don't know if it is relevant but still.)

 

Edit:

25 minutes ago, Joerg said:

or possibly the lowered body of the White Queen

Who? I don't recognize the name.

I'm assuming Brightface is aother name for Yelm?

25 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Her innocence is of a different direction than that of Voria, and her dark twin Gorgorma is different from Babeester Gor. This has been discussed recently.

Really? Where? And how exactly (for both of them)?

 

About Oria:

25 minutes ago, Joerg said:

the mother/template for all land goddesses.

I don't quite understand whst you mean. Do you mean in Dara Happa?

 

24 minutes ago, Joerg said:

In Alkoth, the ruling families all claim descent from the city god (in one of his colored aspects). In Raibanth claims for descent from Raibamus may be rather tenuuous, as the former seat of imperial power has been conquered and overrun many times.

I'm taking this as each city having its own god and the families that descend from that god are local nobility?

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1 hour ago, None said:

I must confess I am surprised. I honestly thought this thread was dead. I suppose I'm a bit to impatient, or insecure.

2 days is just the start of a thread. A thread isn't dead until nobody has posted for a year, then can come roaring back to life.

1 hour ago, None said:

Yes, I did consider it once but I ah, I kind of stopped reading the description once I came to "Official Lunar Imperial List of Emperors“ and just assumed os was solely focused on the Lunar Empire. I think I have to re-evaluate the descission not to buy it back then. Oops.

The thing is, the Lunar Empire is the Dara Happan Empire and the Red Empire is the Emperor of Dara Happa.

There is only one Lunar Emperor and that is the Red Emperor, until some way into the future, anyway.

1 hour ago, None said:

I have gotten the impression that the Dara Happan's are very proud

Understatement of the year! 😃

Yes, even commoners in the Dara Happan cities can trace their ancestry back to Yelm or his kin. They might not be able to trace it through the male line, so cannot belong to the Yelm cult, but they are still descended.

1 hour ago, None said:

What did the Dara Hapan's have against the Dragon Emperor though? Wasnt he the Sun Dragon, or at least an Initiate of the Sun Dragon? Meaning he was still affiliated with the sun?

He was a Dragon yet became Emperor.

He was an abomination yet could still rule.

He was not a real Emperor, although he proved that he was.

He was foisted on them by the Empire of the Wyrms Friends, who were a bunch of Dragon-worshipping Orlanthi Barbarians.

1 hour ago, None said:

Im interpreting it as Yelmic justice is more organized and more compulsory than Orlanthi justice.

I see Yelmic justice as being based on a set of statutes and laws passed down from law-making Emperors.

However, sometimes later Emperors passed different laws that conflict with earlier laws, then were revoked, or downplayed. So, it is up to individual rulers to interpret the laws.

Some laws apply to Citizens of Dara Happa. Some laws refer to people who live in Dara Happa but aren't Citizens, so are strangers. Some laws apply to foreigners, who do not live in Dara Happa. It gets complicated where a transgression crosses those boundaries. So, a Citizen wronging a Stranger might be less punished than a Foreigner wronging a Citizen would be.

But, at the end of the day, it comes down to a member of Yelm Imperator making a judgement in a case. in my Glorantha there are appeals and you just get your case heard by the superior Yelm Imperator member, until you eventually reach the Emperor. Lunar citizens can appeal directly to the Red Emperor, of course, if they dare.

1 hour ago, None said:

I'm guessing that if the injuried party is of significantly lower status then Yelmic justice has a tendency to sudenly not be quite as vigilant or become a lot slower.

Possibly, but it depends on the crime and how connected or in favour the perpetrator is. Sometimes, a member of a family that is out of favour suddenly finds that the Yelm Imperator judge doesn't remember who he is.

1 hour ago, None said:

Are the Dara Happans based on a mix of the Romans and Babylonians?

Far more like Babylonians, Assyrians and such like. Think Sun-Priest-Kings ruling from sacred Ziggurats. Think curled hair and beards. Think tunics and togas.

2 hours ago, None said:

Still not much on Dara Happan daily life and cstoms, or their values.

What kind of things do you want to know, or want us to make up?

Yelm cultists are surrounded by ritual in everything they do. They start off as children but are always taught that they are nobility and are superior to everyone else. They have rituals for everything. 

Good Yelmic women follow Dendara, the Good Wife, and train to become the wives of Yelm worshippers. Marrying a non-Yelm worshipper is seen as a bit of a let-down and disgrace, especially if they are from a family of Yelm worshippers.

Oslir is really important and there are lots of rituals to keep it flowing, to stop it flooding and to keep it in its place.

The City Gods are very important. Think of Pavis as a little bumpkin god compared to these. They are gods who live in their cities. One came out to meet the Red Goddess and ally with her when she came to his city. Everyone worships the City Gods, well everyone who is anyone. 

For the non-Yelmic people, Lokarnos and Polestar are fairly important, but not very. There are lots of solar deities to choose from, but they are all a bit embarrassing compared to Yelm. 

What about Yelmalio? Who? Oh, that bumpkin god that we ship off to the provinces? you might find his shrine in Yelm temples, but he is just not important. Yelorna? Even less so.

Among the peasants, Lodril and his sons are really important and peasants worship him. Women might worship Oria, the Heron Goddess, Pela or even Ernalda. Peasants are dirty ground-grubbers who are far too sensual and engage in dirty orgies. They are not the same kind of people as the Yelm worshippers or the people of the cities. Sure, they feed the cities, but that is their purpose, their role in life, their position. Some peasants worship the Invisible Spear and do secret military training in spear and shield or pike formations. The nobility don't like that, for who wants armed peasants? Nysalor sometimes runs riot and sets enraged mobs through the cities, demanding rights and scaring the nobles, this is a bad thing, of course.

55 minutes ago, None said:

Both actually but mostly the former (urban life). I'm trying to grasp the atmosphere of Dara Happa and its inhabitants.

Snooty, hoity-toity nobles, even the commoners are like that. They feel superior to everyone else because they are superior to everyone else and don't you forget it.

They are descended from Yelm and look down on anyone not descended from Yelm. Even beggars and street urchins are probably descended from Yelm.

The Tripolis are cities made of gleaming white marble with golden statues everywhere. Temples are everywhere. Every house has a shrine to Yelm. The might Oslir passes by, full of ships and commerce.

Women are veiled, except among the peasants. Men are dressed in clean, gleaming togas or tunics. The streets are literally paved in gold in some places.

59 minutes ago, None said:

Then there is also things like how I remember having read somewhere that the Lunars (and therefore presumamly the Solars) had trouble understanding how decentralized Orlanth worship is or something like that. Or how the Orlanthi don't get that angry ovrea cattle raid but somehow I doubrt the Dara Happans (urban or rural) would lokk at such actions the same way. 

It's a different mindset.

Dara Happan society revolves around the Court.

Every house of Yelm worshippers is a Court, with the head of the household acting as Yelm and his family acting as courtiers. Servants and Slaves fill the lesser positions in the court. The head of household's word is law, as he speaks for, and as, Yelm.

Orlanthi households, however, are just a collection of barbarians ruled over by petty chieftains with no connection to Yelm at all.

1 hour ago, None said:

Or how the Orlanthi are described sa realy lonving feasts and festivals but the Dara Happans (even though I have a hard time beliving it) are far to stiff and serious to like either.

Dara Happans love feasts and festivals, but they are not the unruly, haphazard, rough and tumble feasts of the Orlanthi. Oh no, their feasts are planned meals, cooked in the household and brought by servants, served on golden platters. Their festivals honour Yelm and Dendara, the Sons and Daughters of Yelm. Again, they are sedate, well-planned, beautiful things that bring a tear to the eye when you see them. They reflect Harmony and show the beauty of the Court of Yelm.

1 hour ago, None said:

Second. Ernalda.

I've heard that Yelm and the Dara Happands don't really like or trust the cult of Ernalda but the Ernalda cult itself insists Yelm is one of her husbands. So, details? Please? How come and which one is it? Both?

Ernalda was a jumped-up tart, not Yelm's wife at all. She was nothing more than a concubine, brought in to please Yelm, but she couldn't even do that properly. Yelm basically gave her away to that barbarian upstart , Orlanth, because she had no place in Yelm's Court. That is the Dendaran view and Yelm, because all good husbands know when to rule their wives and when to back down, demurely agrees with a decisive and majestic "Yes, Dear".

 

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8 minutes ago, None said:

So he is practically one of Dara Happa's war gods. Possibly its only god that is in a way purely a war god, no more like a death and war god with a bit of violent trickster for good measure.

Does this mean he has a pressence in all of Dara Happas armies or is he more like the god of that one force of warriors you really don't want top have to use?

Yeah, Shargash is everywhere. Often secondary, sometimes primary. 

Ernalda: 

There's a basic and fundamental difference going on here. Orlanth's position as King of the Gods is not inherent. It's a consequence of his deeds. Which is to say, the celestial order is made good through Orlanth acting to please Ernalda and thus retaining the Earth's assent to rule. 

Yelm is the Emperor because he is. His soul, his essence, is that way and cannot be anything else. As such, Dendara grants Yelm righteous authority if he behaves in a righteous fashion in turn. Thus, the sovereignty-granting relationship is threaded through an elaborate power game.

So the Dendara cult must pretend/present submission, with the unspoken caveat that if the bounds are overstepped, the gates of Hell shall open and her sister Gorgorma shall transform good peasants into sullen demonic rebels and so on and so forth. 

Which is to say, the relationships are more similar than anyone would ever like to admit. 

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2 hours ago, Joerg said:

There is nothing "feudal" about the tenant system, whether in Orlanthi or in Dara Happan lands. Dara Happa is a severe case of reign by divine grace and ancestry.

Land use and operation is directed by the Overseers, with their lesser priesthoods overseeing the bureaucracy and other such coordination no rural community really needs or has asked for, outside of areas depending on artificial irrigation.

That's true. I should've worded it differently. Still, the point got across.

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