If Genert Survived the Great Darkness

[None]

How would Genertela be different if Genert survived the Great Darkness?

From what I've understood Genert's absence from Genertela has actually had a significant effect on northern Glorantha.Most notably Prax wouldn't be Prax but Genert's Garden, I belive? Or was Genert's Garden only a small part of Prax?

Regardless, I think its an interesting enough topic and it could be useful for anyone that wants to run a Glorantha with Genert alive.

So how would things be different if he survived and wasn't turned into a Chaos God? How would it be if he was? How would it affect the Earth cults and earth goddesses? How would it affect everything an d everyone else, and how woyould it affect the Praxians?

Edited April 22, 2021 by None

[Sir_Godspeed]

Based on (my memory of) the God Learner maps in the Guide, I believe Genert's Garden was basically all of the Wastes (including Prax) as well as large parts of Pent. 

Presumably, the fertility in these areas would have been significantly greater, removing the necessity for Waha's Survival Pact that Praxians live by, and also, presumably, giving Tada's people (of which the Oasis People is the last remnant... I think?) would be a lot more widespread and presumably not pushed beneath the capricious nature of the Beast Nomads. 

I'm guessing Eirithia would still be alive, or in a different state than the current one?

I believe there are some old ruins along the eastern Rockwoods that may have been once populated by subjects of Genert?

There's also the question of Giants. Regardless what type they were, it seems Genert had a number of, well, gigantic followers, and they may or may not have turned inanimate during Time (presuming the God Time ended largely as it did during the Original Timeline) or may have preserved a society of sorts. 

There's tons more to go through, but this is a start from me, at least.

[None]

29 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

There's tons more to go through, but this is a start from me, at least.

Which is still enough to make several significant changes to Central Genretela.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, None said:

So how would things be different? How would it affect the Earth cults and earth goddesses? How would it affect everything an d everyone else, and how woyould it affect the Praxians?

I'd start with looking at the question: what happened to Genert?  His allies were defeated and obliterated by Chaos.  He transformed himself into a stinging cloud of copper to save those followers who remained. 

What's most likely to happen if Genert does not do so?  He is corrupted by Chaos and becomes the great Chaos God of central Genertela.  He was the Namer, now he is the Mutator - a deity similar to or greater than Pocharngo.  His Garden becomes the Chaos Garden - not just a Chaos Nest, but a whole land of seething growing blighted Chaos.  (Think perhaps of something like the Sarangrave Flat in the old Stephen Donaldson books, or the Land in those books under the vile influence of the Sunbane and the Illearth Stone.)

 

[None]

38 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I'd start with looking at the question: what happened to Genert?  His allies were defeated and obliterated by Chaos.  He transformed himself into a stinging cloud of copper to save those followers who remained. 

What's most likely to happen if Genert does not do so?  He is corrupted by Chaos and becomes the great Chaos God of central Genertela.  He was the Namer, now he is the Mutator - a deity similar to or greater than Pocharngo.  His Garden becomes the Chaos Garden - not just a Chaos Nest, but a whole land of seething growing blighted Chaos.  (Think perhaps of something like the Sarangrave Flat in the old Stephen Donaldson books, or the Land in those books under the vile influence of the Sunbane and the Illearth Stone.)

 

That, that wasn't quite what I intended with this topic but it is an intereting line of thought. I guess I have to further speciy the question in the topic to 'what would happen if Genert survived and wasn't turned into a Chaos God and what would happen if he was?'

I've seen mentioned that he was the Namer, interestingly isn't that something he shares with Yelm then? As I remember Yellm has a whole myth about how he named everything (except Umath).

[jajagappa]

4 minutes ago, None said:

I guess I have to further speciy the question in the topic to 'what would happen if Genert survived and wasn't turned into a Chaos God and what would happen if he was?'

That's really so broad as to be almost unanswerable. 

You could play out a few games of Petersen Games The Gods War and see how it aligns at the end if you want some variations.

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, None said:

I've seen mentioned that he was the Namer, interestingly isn't that something he shares with Yelm then? As I remember Yellm has a whole myth about how he named everything (except Umath).

These aspects were both utilized in HQG scenarios.

Genert and his companions were the original Namers - effectively awaking things into "what they are".  The scenario/myth is in Eleven Lights if you take the Green Age path.  This is a dangerous path because if you speak or ask about something, you are also Naming it.  And what you Name has mythic ripples into the mundane world (likely creating something new in the world that folk didn't know of before, and creating an enemy for you personally in some capacity).

Yelm ordered the Universe and he did this by also Naming things - effectively bounding/limiting things by "what they are named".  The scenario/myth is in Pavis: Gateway to Adventure.  The goal of Yelm here is to restrict what you can do/be by what you are named.  E.g. he named Umath as Rebellus Terminus, trying to limit him to being simply the Rebel God.  Umath resists by describing all the other names he has, and trying to get Yelm to accept all of those are more.  If you (as an avatar of your god) are "named" in such a myth, and do not resist/overcome, then you might lose some of your magic because you as representative of your god failed to support/assert that aspect.

[Eff]

Throughout most of Genertela, the Earth is segmented. Each goddess has her boundaries, and if she is to be called beyond them, it's a portentuous and terrible thing. 

Genert's Garden, so far as we know, had no such boundaries. It was all Genert, all one "place", symbolically. With Genert dead, it is steppe and chapparal and desert, land which can only be related to in particular ways. 

With Genert alive, it comes into Time as a fertile land, but one without the sectioning forces which normally limit one's authority in Glorantha- the Garden would be naturally one place still, one people that spanned a noticeable chunk of the continent, with cities and fields. 

What does this look like? It's beyond imagination, but the closest thing seems to be 20th/21st century America or Australia or Canada, big and somewhat culturally homogeneous. But even more so than anything in the real world, in all likelihood. Terrifying. 

EDIT: Of course, this thing I have described is pretty Chaotic even if nobody is a third-hand illuminate. Perhaps this is what shattered Genert- the Chaos foe held up a mirror and showed this primal titan he couldn't exist within a mythic present without the world warping around him, and Genert decided to splinter himself to preserve his people. 

Edited April 22, 2021 by Eff

[None]

12 hours ago, jajagappa said:

That's really so broad as to be almost unanswerable.

Maybe I should have thought more before making the topic but I still find the suggestions given so far to be interesting enough to have been worth it.

 

It is obvious that Generts absence has significatly afected Northern Glorantha.

Simply having  im be alive (and non-chaosified) would affectthe Praxians so much that they wouldn't be warlike, nomadic barbarians but probably a setled civilization that could reach out to influence tthe surrounding area.

Sudenly they'd be less 'barabaric' than the Sartarites and I'd gues they would have a stronger theistic tradition centered around Genert.

 

Edit:

13 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

There's also the question of Giants. Regardless what type they were, it seems Genert had a number of, well, gigantic followers, and they may or may not have turned inanimate during Time (presuming the God Time ended largely as it did during the Original Timeline) or may have preserved a society of sorts. 

Oh, yes, this.

This should mean that Genert being alive should be huge for Pavis, unless I'm mistaken.

Edited April 23, 2021 by None

[soltakss]

Genert the Earth king would have stood against Chaos and might have stopped it in its tracks. Wakboth might have still reached the Spike, from another path, destroying it.

There would be no Waha, at least not in his current form, no Beast Riders surviving in the hostile wastes, no broken Oasis Folk, so Prax and the Wastes would be very different. Prax would still be an Aldryami Forest, with a Great Tree in Redwood. Genert's garden would be a very fertile place.

Ernalda might be Queen of the Gods, as Orlanth's wife, but she wouldn't be Earth Queen, for Genert would be Earth King. I am not sure of the impact of that, though.

Yelm might have a rival for Rulership, as Genert would be king of Genertela, leaving Yelm as just the ruler of Dara Happa. 

[soltakss]

40 minutes ago, None said:

This should mean that Genert being alive should be huge for Pavis, unless I'm mistaken.

Pavis would probably not exist, at least not in its current form.

 

[Joerg]

The amounts of lands turned into a wasteland or drowned between the Golden Age and the Dawn are roughly the same in Genertela and Pamaltela, if you look at the vast Nargan Desert which reduces the former Doraddi (and Artmali) territories by at least half, and the drowned lands (mostly of the Outrigger Peoples) along the coast.

The almost intact survival of the jungle belt in Pamaltela is possibly the major difference between Pamaltela and Genertela.

 

I wonder whether the "dryads as only females" culture of the yellow elves is in any way profiting from the survival of the Earth King, but then there are green and brown elf forests in Umathela (a re-forestation of Somelz? Is the Earth King alive there again?) and there are yellow elves in southeastern Genertela and the islands of the East. (Where Vith is around, too...)

 

In Genertela, the brown elves show up in Genert's Garden, aided by Yelmalio Lightfore and kept alive by Antirius for at least the first part of the Lesser Darkness. They have the strange mix of two genders of Aldryami and dryad mothers. The green elves coexist with dryads as well (see e.g. Biturian's encounter in Redwood Forest), but those dryads aren't part of their procreation.

Then there is the Greatwood, the great forest of the Hykimi peoples and the Kachisti roaming grounds, in western Genertela.

 

How much is Ernalda a daughter of Genert? Her mythical role among the Hill Barbarians and related cultures is that of the super-Land Goddess, source of sovereignty. There doesn't seem to be such a "marry the land goddess to become chief" tradition in Pamaltela, even though Pamalt did marry the earth daughter and became chief, but the latter was from merit rather than by marriage. Marrying made Pamalt part of the pantheon (compare Elmal in Orlanthi mythology). But then Orlanth's marriage with Ernalda may have re-sealed the similar previous marriage of Durev and Orane. Thunder Rebels lists the fire husbands of the handmaidens of Ernalda, additional brothers of the three lowfires, as part of the Storm Tribe, that's not so dissimilar from Lodril Balumbasta and Vangono etc. becoming Pamalt's in-laws and part of his Necklace.

 

Brightface apparently claimed merit for his taking away the sovereignty from the White Goddess(es), too, and Orlanth undergoes a series of contests to bring back his woman and become king. Yelm claims a sovereignty from above,

 

If it wasn't Yelm's descent to Hell which took away life from the northern continent, what was it that tipped the balance? Flamal being cut down by Zorak Zoran? Death (Nontraya) coming for the Goddess(es) hiding beneath new hills, or "Not Dead But Sleeping"? Or the result of Earthfall where Genert sacrificed himself and a good deal of his followers to allow some noncombatants to flee? Antirius sinking ever lower, and whisking out? The Breaking of the World? (That event brought a measure of fertility and prosperity to Kethaela with the rebirth of Choralinthor and the Faralinthor coastline.)

 

 

[dumuzid]

if somehow the Earthfall were circumvented, and Genert's Garden was not laid waste in the Lesser Darkness, then the prospects for survival rise significantly for the dominant civilization of the Garden: the baboons.  I would assume that a Glorantha where Genert survives would include a much more powerful and numerous baboon culture in central Genertela.

Edited April 24, 2021 by dumuzid

[Hijabg]

3 hours ago, dumuzid said:

more powerful and numerous baboon culture in central Genertela

Plains of the Apes 

[dumuzid]

9 hours ago, Hijabg said:

Plains of the Apes 

Forests and mountains of the Apes.  If Genert survives the Gods War without being turned into a Chaos horror, central Genertela would probably be as lushly forested as north-central Pamaltela

[jajagappa]

7 hours ago, dumuzid said:

Forests and mountains of the Apes.  If Genert survives the Gods War without being turned into a Chaos horror, central Genertela would probably be as lushly forested as north-central Pamaltela

Giant earth worms/serpents.  Like Dune, but lush, and the great serpents crawl through the Garden "turning up" the soil with great eruptions of dirt, quaking ground, etc.

[Sir_Godspeed]

9 hours ago, dumuzid said:

Forests and mountains of the Apes.  If Genert survives the Gods War without being turned into a Chaos horror, central Genertela would probably be as lushly forested as north-central Pamaltela

While parts of Prax(?) had giant redwoods, I'm not sure if the entirety of the Waste/Pent would be forest, I dunno. I'm still imagining expansive mixed grasslands easily traversed by relatively unbothered bands of hunter-gatherers and pastoralists. Maybe even family-bands of giants, or perhaps more accurately, restless bands of mirthful bachelor giants. Potentially bothersome, but not ill-willed.

Presumably we would also have some massive rivers going through, the ones nowadays only seasonally active, dried up completely, or going underground. Gallery forests along there would make sense. Lush marshlands might also exist in places. 

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Giant earth worms/serpents.  Like Dune, but lush, and the great serpents crawl through the Garden "turning up" the soil with great eruptions of dirt, quaking ground, etc.

I like that idea. Scary and potentially dangerous, but non-aggressive and really just uncaring more than anything. One of many reasons why settling big cities out on the plain or forests is ill-adviced. Stick to the foothills of the Rockwoods or Shan-Shan, or the few hills dotted around. Also, keep around one of Genert's Giants. They know how to scare the worms away with some well-timed jump-stomping. Vibrations and all. Then remember to give thanks to your local giants with music and dances or whatever. 

 

One thing I've been thinking about is the form male Earth Sovereignty would take. You'd think a surviving Genert, or Tada, would take wives from other gods, or even mortal heroines, but iirc, Tada married his daughters to Vingkot, and I wonder if that might be their default approach to alliance building. Potential outcome: Genert effectively becomes the Father-in-law of Orlanth and Yelm in this alternate mythic reality. Through this bond, he can assert familial pressure to lessen Central Genertelan hostilities. Plausible? Who knows, Sun and Storm still fought when he was alive, so maybe not. But one can dream.

If Genert took a wife, perhaps it would be a female Sun, or a female Air? Or a large river going through his lands that does not exist in the Original Timeline. Or even something more "universal", like Uleria? Or perhaps he simply dallies around, or retreats and act as a largely benevolent, if tired, Elder. 

No idea what his relationship with dragons would be. I suspect not much would change for the 'newts. 

Interesting pondering what Kralorela would be like with a much more friendly climate and (potentially) cultures to their west though. Perhaps draconism never quite took off as much as in the OT? 

Fever Trees might've been a fully fledged Aldryami forest, as might the Redwood Forest. Teshnos might have traded more easily with the west, although, on the other hand, with all those forests and rivers and potentially fewer horses and riding animals, perhaps they would have been EVEN MORE isolated? Weird thought, but who knows. 

Rivers might've made north-south trade easier though, but not sure who would be interested in it. 

Oh, and megafauna. I just like megafauna. So I decide there would be more megafauna. Besides the worms, of course.

Edited April 25, 2021 by Sir_Godspeed

[jajagappa]

42 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

You'd think a surviving Genert, or Tada, would take wives from other gods, or even mortal heroines, but iirc, Tada married his daughters to Vingkot, and I wonder if that might be their default approach to alliance building. Potential outcome: Genert effectively becomes the Father-in-law of Orlanth and Yelm in this alternate mythic reality. Through this bond, he can assert familial pressure to lessen Central Genertelan hostilities. Plausible?

Maybe the Three Bean Circus that survives is a recollection of the ancient God-time Green Age when Genert and others sat around the first campfire and smoked the strange plants that grew in those days?

[Nevermet]

...I never occurred to me before, but now I wonder how the Aldryami Reforestation efforts in Maniria, Carmania, and (IIRC?) eastern Ralios relates to Genert and His Resurrection.

 

sigh... I need to read so much more...

[soltakss]

9 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

While parts of Prax(?) had giant redwoods, I'm not sure if the entirety of the Waste/Pent would be forest, I dunno.

Prax was a forest, but the inhabitants fed it to Oakfed in the Greater Darkness, the Redwoods are the pitiful remnants of the forest.

The Wastes would be Genert's Garden and would be a mixture of types of plants.

9 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

One thing I've been thinking about is the form male Earth Sovereignty would take. You'd think a surviving Genert, or Tada, would take wives from other gods, or even mortal heroines, but iirc, Tada married his daughters to Vingkot, and I wonder if that might be their default approach to alliance building.

and

9 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

If Genert took a wife, perhaps it would be a female Sun, or a female Air? Or a large river going through his lands that does not exist in the Original Timeline. Or even something more "universal", like Uleria? Or perhaps he simply dallies around, or retreats and act as a largely benevolent, if tired, Elder. 

Genert just loves his mother, sisters, daughters and granddaughters. I suppose he could father some goddesses on Ernalda, as an Earth Goddess she is his niece, or grand-niece, so he still keeps it in the family. He might marry someone not of the Earth Tribe, but that doesn't seem to be his forte.

9 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Potential outcome: Genert effectively becomes the Father-in-law of Orlanth and Yelm in this alternate mythic reality.

Genert is one of Orlanth's Bad Uncles and is Ernalda's Uncle, so is an uncle on both sides. More evidence of Hillbilly Orlanth - Q: "Are you related by blood or marriage?"  A: Puzzled, "Both" ...

9 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

No idea what his relationship with dragons would be. I suspect not much would change for the 'newts. 

The Giants and Dragons were enemies way back in God Time. Genert is traditionally said to be the father of the Giants, so presumably he wouldn't like Dragons much. Although, he does have a True Dragon who lives in his Garden.

5 hours ago, Nevermet said:

..I never occurred to me before, but now I wonder how the Aldryami Reforestation efforts in Maniria, Carmania, and (IIRC?) eastern Ralios relates to Genert and His Resurrection.

That was a big part of my Oasis Folk Campaign. There were a lot of connections between Resurrecting Genert and the Reforestation Project.

[aumshantih]

If Genert was able to survive and withstand Chaos, I suspect Genertela would be a lot more like Pamaltela.   Genert would have some equivalent of Pamalt's Necklace - a collection of deities / Majestic Spirits allied with him.   I'm unsure if they'd be as animistic in nature, given The North quadrants generally theistic bent to things.

Relations between Genert's Group and other large pantheons would be complex.   Yelm's pantheon would likely be hostile.   The West would be very different - unsure if Frona or Seshna would bend to the will of the Malkioni sorcerers as easily as they did.    Kralorela would likely maintain is draconic independence.   Teshnos would likely be better integrated into central Genertelan culture.

Not sure what would happen to Orlanth in this situation - a Lightbringer's quest would likely still be necessary to bring back the Sun, but I could see it being organized by Genert and his children instead of Mr. Sun-Killer himself.

As for what happens during History - I mean, it's all upside down and topsy turvy.   Is there a need for a Nysalor project when you've got big daddy Genert right there?   And who knows what would happen in the second age with the God-Learners and the EWF?

 

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, aumshantih said:

If Genert was able to survive and withstand Chaos, I suspect Genertela would be a lot more like Pamaltela.   Genert would have some equivalent of Pamalt's Necklace - a collection of deities / Majestic Spirits allied with him.   I'm unsure if they'd be as animistic in nature, given The North quadrants generally theistic bent to things.

Yes, Genert had his court of elemental deities from the other elements - Yamsur from the Fire Tribe, Seolinthur from the Water Tribe, Storm Bull from the Storm Tribe, and lesser ones like the Long-Ears, Aldryami Lords and other such participants of the Eternal Battle (not "the Silver Age warriors who rode from the Spike", though, as that provides either a very early start or a continuity problem as the Silver Age started long after Earthfall, and only after the Eternal Battle began (I think this is part of the Bull's struggle with the Devil, and led to him being tossed down at what is now the Dead Place). Not sure about any Darkness deities at his court, except perhaps Inora, the White Lady of the Darkness spirits in Nomad Gods.

The Necklace appears to be a Pamaltelan parallel to I Fought We Won, only with the deities of the Doraddi rather than mortal (or demigod) heroes.

 

2 hours ago, aumshantih said:

Relations between Genert's Group and other large pantheons would be complex.   Yelm's pantheon would likely be hostile.   The West would be very different - unsure if Frona or Seshna would bend to the will of the Malkioni sorcerers as easily as they did.    Kralorela would likely maintain is draconic independence.   Teshnos would likely be better integrated into central Genertelan culture.

From the Dara Happan sources, it appears that Yelm's outlook was limited by the extend of the Rockwood Mountains when it came to interaction with the East. What would become the Arcos Valley appears to be the outer extent even of the Decapolis described by Plentonius.

Zzabur names Genner as one of the Srvuali and False Gods - a runic entity accepting worship. His relationship with the ruler of the northern quarter of the world appears to be one of disdain, but that's the same as for Bamat (Pamalt) and Vit (Vith), the other two directional rulers.

Both the eastern rulers and Tada claim to have raised the mountain border between the lands of the East (including Kralorela and most of Teshnos) and Genert's Garden/Meksornmali. This appears to reflect a mutual policy of ignoring what is going on on the other side.

Teshnos was drawn not so much into central Genertelan culture but into western Genertelan culture by the Middle Sea Empire. The Beast Riders of Prax and the Wastes started to interact with the Shan Shan mountains and beyond only in the Second Age, after the Hidden Greens of the Wastes had been explored in the Waha Trails. It isn't clear whether the Iron Forts were built as defense against Beast Riders, or as defense against Antigods (like the Chaos from the Tunneled Hills at the Plateau of Statues in the eastern Wastes).

The iron of the Iron Forts may have been the prize from destroying the northern mostali colony in the Shan Shan range - the southern colony in Diamond Mountain are strict Octamonists and don't have any iron. (Perhaps in reaction to the destruction of their northern brethren?)

The Sea pantheon was both friendly (Seolinthur and his children, including Zola Fel) and hostile (Worcha, the Raging Sea, and the standing wave covering parts of Prax during the Flood).

The migration of Gash and Gore was turned away from Genert's Garden twice, with the aid of Yelmalio and aldryami. Dozaki's New Home in the far north-east was not quite a direct neighbor to Genert, the remnants of the Ratite Empire and the Kralori served as a buffer. Inora (singing "Let it Go") may have been a representative of Darkness, but prior to the loss of the Redwood to Oakfed, she would not have been regarded as helpful to the growth of the Garden.

 

2 hours ago, aumshantih said:

Not sure what would happen to Orlanth in this situation - a Lightbringer's quest would likely still be necessary to bring back the Sun, but I could see it being organized by Genert and his children instead of Mr. Sun-Killer himself.

The Slaying of the Emperor did not bring absolute darkness to the World. Calling the period after Yelm's death the Lesser Darkness appears to me like Dara Happan propaganda.

The Death of the Emperor brought about changes - the Flood, the coming of Winter (Valind's Glacier), and (only with a slight causal connection) the invasion of the Unholy Trio and their collective spawn Wakboth from the north.

The Only Old One might be the one to blame for Earthfall - without his success in rallying all the people around his realm against the Devil's army, Earthfall might have been avoided, but instead Dragon Pass would have become a barren wasteland on the way of the Chaos Horde towards the Spike.

2 hours ago, aumshantih said:

As for what happens during History - I mean, it's all upside down and topsy turvy.   Is there a need for a Nysalor project when you've got big daddy Genert right there?   

The Pseudocosmic Egg was one of the double-edged heirlooms the Feldichi left behind. That people appears to have been quite unpleasant, although outwardly helpful. This sounds a bit like the Vadeli POWs rebelling against the Kachasti, who we know were in the area at the time of the formation of the Nidan Range.

Even with Genert and his court surviving, the death of Rashoran at the hands of the Unholy Trio could only have been prevented if Orlanth had been somehow able to prevent Ragnaglar's rape of Thed.

Ultimately, Genert might be to blame for that - he was one of the Evil Uncles who imposed the lethal or at least meant to be imprisoning initiatory tests on Umath's spawn. Ragnaglar was driven insane in the Sex Pit, and that insanity led to his rape of Thed.

 

Rashoran is blamed in part for the Unholy Trio accepting Chaos as a tool for their revenge against the establishment (including Orlanth as King of the Gods). His message of Illumination was waiting to return to the world. The simultaneous summoning of Gbaji was an unintended consequence, part of the temptation trap left behind by the Feldichi.

 

2 hours ago, aumshantih said:

And who knows what would happen in the second age with the God-Learners and the EWF?

The God Learners wouldn't have stopped at trying to capture all the Cradles, but would have treated Genert's palace similar to how the Seshnegi had treaded Hrelar Amali - a mix of destructive disdain and a measure of respect.

The secret of draconic speech entered the Kingdom of Orlanthland long before the Malkioni discovered the Abiding Book - the claim that it had been God Learners who had discovered that lost ability is baloney. One might be inclined to blame Lhankor Mhy scholars whose libraries later came under the sway of God Learners from Slontos, but that's as far as the connection between the earliest Dragonspeakers and the God Learners goes.

The God Learner conquest of Teshnos was triggered by the Loper People who had been campaigning in post-Stygian Empire Ralios, losing the Red Sword of Tolat in the process, allowing a western adventurer to pick up that artefact and to travel to Melib and claim kingship. The Loper People apparently had roamed into Genert's Wastes earlier on, although the way they had ended up in Ralios is another enigma. Whether Genert's presence would have prevented the Loper King from campaigning in (or rather against) the Rightness Crusade in Ralios may have been a tipping point in eastern Genertelan history.

 

Genert doesn't seem to have interacted adversely with Herespur, an eastern Antigod who may have been a mask of a respectable (if warlike) Genertelan deity.

[Darius West]

On 4/23/2021 at 2:20 AM, None said:

How would Genertela be different if Genert survived the Great Darkness?

From what I've understood Genert's absence from Genertela has actually had a significant effect on northern Glorantha.Most notably Prax wouldn't be Prax but Genert's Garden, I belive? Or was Genert's Garden only a small part of Prax?

Regardless, I think its an interesting enough topic and it could be useful for anyone that wants to run a Glorantha with Genert alive.

So how would things be different if he survived and wasn't turned into a Chaos God? How would it be if he was? How would it affect the Earth cults and earth goddesses? How would it affect everything an d everyone else, and how woyould it affect the Praxians?

This is an interesting question.  I would suggest the following...

In essence there would be no Praxians as we know them, because there would have been no need for Waha's Covenant.  Instead there would be herds of intelligent animals and giants roaming the landscape for a start.

Next up, think about how huge a part the cult of Pamalt plays in Pamaltelan society.  He is a masculine earth deity and the head of a pantheon, and is effectively the demi-urge of his continent.  This means that it is likely that a live Genert would be more important than Yelm, Orlanth, or the Invisible God.

I would also imagine that Genert is a father of Earth Giants, like Tada, and so the Giants would be a far more fertile and active species, and would likely not be using the Zola Fel to send cradles to the underworld to grow up.

It is also likely that the Aldryami would be more important, as their forests would not have been fed to Oakfed.

It is also likely that Genert as an Earth cult would have the Battle Axe as their cult weapon, meaning that there would be an axe god instead of an axe goddess.  It is quite possible that Maran Gor and Barbeester Gor would be very different cults, never having needed to exist as the military arm of Earth worship.  Maran for example might be more like Cronisper or Gorgorma, a goddess of reaping the harvest, and an Earth Witch like Hecate perhaps, and possibly still a "seducer of dragons", and maybe a Mother Winter goddess, married to Valind.  Barbeester might be more of a "Barbee", who is responsible for chastity, fertility control, and perhaps something of an Artemis character.

It is interesting to consider the fate of the trolls in this situation.  Possibly we may even have seen Korasting or Kyger Litor taking Genert as a husband to better adjust to their new world?

Of course much is predicated on the idea that the Earth could fight Chaos in a way that Genert failed at in the mythology.  We must assume that Genert was not a very good strategist and not very knowledgeable about the uses of death or chaos in the present milieu, which is why he died; he failed to adapt.  Pamalt by comparison has Comprehension, that allows him to increase his knowledge skills by 5% per point, and that includes Battle.  Genert died fighting Wakboth, whereas Stormbull fought and defeated Wakboth, so we have the berserker model for how it could be done, on the otherhand, perhaps greater knowledge and better use of forces might also have turned the chaos horde?  So either Genert needs to be much tougher, or much wiser imo.