Are undead immune to spirit combat?

[Squaredeal Sten]

Are undead immune to spirit combat?   This question becomes relevant if the undead walk through a trap consisting of a bound spirit, or a player has access to a bound spirit that can be made to attack, or if a shaman wants to discorporate and perform a spirit combat attack on the undead.

My first thought was "no", because the undead have no POW, evidently no soul or spirit  -   well, ghouls may be a special case since they are corpses possessed, so there must be a spirit to possess them.  But otherwise, your ordinary garden variety skeletons, zombies, vampires, or revenants, or even Dancers in Darkness, have no POW stat. 

But they are  "corporeal beings".  And spirit combat is resolved using spirit combat skill vs spirit combat skill, not POW vs, POW,  so in principle that looks possible vs. undead.  Though the Glorantha Bestiary doesn't give them a spirit combat skill, the GM could give them the default 20% less a magic skills modifier (-10% for POW=1, so maybe -15% for POW=0?)  (higher for vampires whose skills are from their former life),.  And many of the undead do have magic points, which is where you take hits from spirit combat.

 

Edited February 21, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
magic skills modifier

[PhilHibbs]

I think they are immune. They can't contract diseases, can't have passions, don't have MP, they aren't "corporeal beings" really, they are just animated corpses.

[Squaredeal Sten]

1 minute ago, PhilHibbs said:

I think they are immune. They can't contract diseases, can't have passions, don't have MP, they aren't "corporeal beings" really, they are just animated corpses.

Some of them do have MP; Vampires, Dancers in Darkness, revenants all do in the GB.  Even zombies do (1D6).  Skeletons do not.

[Richard S.]

IMO, if they're undead made by binding a spirit into a corpse, they can be spirit combatted. Strictly animated or otherwise soulless undead can't be, they have little to no presence on the spirit plane.

[dumuzid]

If I were running the game, I'd say that Spirit Combat can be used against anything with MP.

[Joerg]

In a related sense, can sorcery spells (which are temporary entities possessing MP) be attacked in spirit combat?

[Squaredeal Sten]

2 minutes ago, Joerg said:

In a related sense, can sorcery spells (which are temporary entities possessing MP) be attacked in spirit combat?

I don't thinnk of a spell as an entity, so IMHO no.  https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/entity

Also,   RQiG p.366:  "INITIATING SPIRIT COMBAT   Spirit combat may occur between two discorporate entities (entirely within the spirit world) or between a discorporate entity and an embodied entity (such as a human being) in the middle world.  ..." therefore unless the sorcery spell is an embodied entity I would say no.

[Joerg]

15 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I don't thinnk of a spell as an entity, so IMHO no.  https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/entity

Sorcery spells overcome their targets' POW with their own magic points rather than the POW of the sorcerer. This means they act as self-contained magical creations rather than as extensions of the sorcerer's aura. Unless active, they have a temporary existence independent of the sorcerer, and will persist even if the sorcerer dies, until their duration component runs out or their substance is dispelled. A Neutralize Magic with shorter duration than the spell itself will only temporarily negate its effects, and possibly only in a limited area/volume.

 

15 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Also,   RQiG p.366:  "INITIATING SPIRIT COMBAT   Spirit combat may occur between two discorporate entities (entirely within the spirit world) or between a discorporate entity and an embodied entity (such as a human being) in the middle world.  ..." therefore unless the sorcery spell is an embodied entity I would say no.

A sorcery spell has Visibility, which makes any discorporate entity embodied for purposes of being eligible to be attacked in the Middle World. A discorporate entity in the Middle World has to assume Visibility to interact with an embodied entity, e.g. initiating Spirit Combat. A Visible spirit may be attacked with magical weapons as spirit combat action.

[Akhôrahil]

3 hours ago, dumuzid said:

If I were running the game, I'd say that Spirit Combat can be used against anything with MP.

This makes sense to me. Vampires yes, zombies no.

[French Desperate WindChild]

32 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Sorcery spells overcome their targets' POW with their own magic points rather than the POW of the sorcerer. This means they act as self-contained magical creations rather than as extensions of the sorcerer's aura. Unless active, they have a temporary existence independent of the sorcerer, and will persist even if the sorcerer dies, until their duration component runs out or their substance is dispelled. A Neutralize Magic with shorter duration than the spell itself will only temporarily negate its effects, and possibly only in a limited area/volume.

 

A sorcery spell has Visibility, which makes any discorporate entity embodied for purposes of being eligible to be attacked in the Middle World. A discorporate entity in the Middle World has to assume Visibility to interact with an embodied entity, e.g. initiating Spirit Combat. A Visible spirit may be attacked with magical weapons as spirit combat action.

I would say you are going a little bit ... too far ?

I see them as Effect, not Entity

they don't have POW, they have energy (created by the sorcerer's magic points)

 

they exists like a stone exists,

they are visibles like a stone is visible, they "move",

they move  like a stone rolls

will you engage a stone in spirit combat ? not me

3 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

My first thought was "no", because the undead have no POW, evidently no soul or spirit  -   well, ghouls may be a special case since they are corpses possessed, so there must be a spirit to possess them.  But otherwise, your ordinary garden variety skeletons, zombies, vampires, or revenants, or even Dancers in Darkness, have no POW stat. 

that s exactly what I mean. they have no soul, they are immune to any "soul" attack, including spirit combat.

to easy to destroy the big undead boss if not, send a spirit with 1 pow, wait a round, that's all you can plunder the dungeon

[Squaredeal Sten]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

This makes sense to me. Vampires yes, zombies no.

But zombies have magic points.  See RQ Glorantha Bestiary p. 129, characteristics, "Magic points;  1D6".

 

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

....that s exactly what I mean. they have no soul, they are immune to any "soul" attack, including spirit combat.

to easy to destroy the big undead boss if not, send a spirit with 1 pow, wait a round, that's all you can plunder the dungeon

That is a very real consideration.  And I can see it coming up in my campaign on zoom.  I'm just trying to stay a couple of steps ahead of the players by raising this question and thinking about it now, rather than answering off the cuff in the minute that it happens.

[Akhôrahil]

27 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

But zombies have magic points.  See RQ Glorantha Bestiary p. 129, characteristics, "Magic points;  1D6".

Huh, missed that, thanks! In that case, I guess they're not automata, and you can Spirit Combat them. 

Replace with Skeletons for the same effect, instead.

(Actually, why are zombies and skeletons fundamentally different? Aren't they just both animated corpses running on a program?)

[Richard S.]

I feel like an undead with MP but no POW (including vampires) is more akin to a magic point container, and it doesn't let spirits seriously affect them or vice versa.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Richard S. said:

I feel like an undead with MP but no POW (including vampires) is more akin to a magic point container, and it doesn't let spirits seriously affect them or vice versa.

If these undead are enchanted constructs, fueled with added MP, then they are almost like spirit binding matrices.  If a spirit did attack, and brings the MP to 0, they might get pulled into the undead, and effectively trapped within (though potentially they could then animate the corpse).

[HreshtIronBorne]

7 hours ago, jajagappa said:

If these undead are enchanted constructs, fueled with added MP, then they are almost like spirit binding matrices.  If a spirit did attack, and brings the MP to 0, they might get pulled into the undead, and effectively trapped within (though potentially they could then animate the corpse).

Ooops, it's a Ghoul!

[Godlearner]

IMO, it's a case-by-case kind of thing. There are certain undead which are subject to spirit combat such as Ghouls, Thanatari Heads, Zombies or Skeletons with bound spirits animating them, revenants, mummies created through divine intervention, etc. Basically, anything which has a spirt even if they "do not have POW" according to the RAW rules. Not sure (have not made up my mind) about vampires and demons. Anything without a 'personality' is just a magical construct (unless animated by a spirit) and are not subject to spirit combat. 

[Squaredeal Sten]

6 hours ago, Godlearner said:

IMO, it's a case-by-case kind of thing. There are certain undead which are subject to spirit combat such as Ghouls, Thanatari Heads, Zombies or Skeletons with bound spirits animating them, revenants, mummies created through divine intervention, etc. Basically, anything which has a spirt even if they "do not have POW" according to the RAW rules. Not sure (have not made up my mind) about vampires and demons. Anything without a 'personality' is just a magical construct (unless animated by a spirit) and are not subject to spirit combat. 

Zombies and skeletons seem to be animated by a rune spell, but not to have a spirit or a personality, and are not produced by binding spirits (see RBOM).  By what reasoning do you say they should be subject to spirit combat?

Vampires definitely have a personality and INT, and the vampire case is important here, so I am looking for a rule that covers it..  They are described by the bestiary as being made by binding the mind, not the spirit. 

Revenants as described in the Bestiary (p.123).  According to the Red Book of magic the Create Revenant  rune spell "binds the deceased Death Lord's spirit back into their body", so it has a spirit!, and they are made by investing a point of POW from the enchanter and all of the Death lord's POW - but the result has no POW.  They can have magic points, 2D6+2 in the example, and have INT.  So it seems to me revenants should be vulnerable to spirit combat if any undead are.

Demons are not undead. 

[Godlearner]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Zombies and skeletons seem to be animated by a rune spell, but not to have a spirit or a personality,

Not always. Several cults have ways of making these undead from their worshippers through Rune spells or through Divine Intervention. In these cases there is a spirit in these husks similar to Revenants.

[JRE]

I really like the idea that a spirit that takes the last MP in an animated undead is sucked into it but can control it. That means spirits or shamans will not want to use spirit combat, even if they can, most of the time. Lots of MGF opportunity, without having to do changes to spirit combat itself. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

another answer (or question ?) :

 

is your target present in the spirit world ? with other words, are you able to see her with second sight ?

 

the vampire or any sentient undead is the bigger issue

 

in some of our RL legends, vampire exist, but have no reflection in a mirror because they have no soul.

that for me the same in glorantha: vivamort refused to die because he feared to disappear. Doing that he did exactly the opposite of what he wanted:  he lost his soul/spirit, the only thing remaining after  his death.  Now he cannot die, he can only be destroyed (nothing will remain)

Vampire and others are not complete creatures, they lost their spirit. they are probably more scared than others, because they know that nothing will remain when mortals know their spirit will meet daka fal.

But they gain this advantage: they are outside the spirit world, they are immune to the spirit world

 

just a personal view, don't say it is the only "truth"

[PhilHibbs]

I'd like to step back from the RQ game mechanical arguments.

Is spirit combat a recognized thing in Glorantha, rather than just a rules artefact? I think so.

Undead are a thing in Glorantha, they even have their very own rune.

Can undead, in Glorantha, be attacked in spirit combat? I kind of feel that the answer to that should either be "yes" or "no", and not "maybe sometimes it depends on the particular undead". I may be wrong, maybe the answer is "maybe sometimes it depends".

If it is, and skeletons can't be attacked by spirits but Dancers in Darkness can, why is that, in Gloranthan terms rather than RuneQuest mechanical terms? Are the different kinds of undead meaningfully different in Glorantha such that some can be attacked by spirits and some cannot (or for some reason simply never are, because it's pointless)?

[Joerg]

Spirit combat appears to be the in-world attack mode of Ghosts, spirit entities employed as guardians by the cult of Humakt, the arch-foe of the Undead. It would be weird if these guardians were unable to deal with the Walking Dead.

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Spirit combat appears to be the in-world attack mode of Ghosts, spirit entities employed as guardians by the cult of Humakt, the arch-foe of the Undead. It would be weird if these guardians were unable to deal with the Walking Dead.

Good point, so what would that look like? If ghosts can attack any and all undead in spirit combat, but skeletons have no MP, does that mean that any spirit with a reasonably high skill can knock over a skeleton like a straw? Maybe. I'm not closed to that option.

On the other hand, spirit combat might not be the only thing that a Humakti ghost can do against a skeleton. There are other options, but it might involve giving them a specific power for the purpose.

Edited February 23, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[Squaredeal Sten]

6 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

is your target present in the spirit world ? with other words, are you able to see her with second sight ?

That is a very interesting point.  If the attacking spirit (whether a ghost or another spirit including a disembodied shaman) can't see something, can it fight it?

Second sight allows the user to see POW.  Therefore IF that is what spirits use to see then they ought not to be able to attack beings which have no POW.

But is that what spirits use to see?