Using the rules of the game, how are PCs expected to defeat "high-level" opponents?

[Shiningbrow]

9 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

Many GMs apparently saw the need for Heroquesting rules for MGF purposes back in the day because their definition of "high level game play" obviously didn't match the designers' definition. It's a well-worn joke among RQ's fans that a game whose setting leans so heavily on Heroquesting has never produced game rules to actually do Heroquesting. 

It's weird to me that RQG's designers decided to raid the pantries of Stormbringer and Pendragon to update RQ2 rather than plug this obvious, 45-year-old gap in the rules. Even the 13th Age Glorantha designers gave it a shot.

Except that there are officially published rules... just most people here don't want to talk about the oft-hated Mongoose publications.

I doubt the upcoming Chaosium variant will be overly different,  as they have the same core ideas that have been discussed (and used) for decades,  but there will be some relatively minor mechanical differences.

Those core ideas include stations, opponents,  success and failure results,  and rewards,  as well as a few example HQs, which pretty much align with what's been discussed above.

 

[EpicureanDM]

59 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Except that there are officially published rules... just most people here don't want to talk about the oft-hated Mongoose publications.

Oh, is that right? RuneQuest was entirely off my radar when Mongoose ran the show. I should track those down.

[Shiningbrow]

3 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

Oh, is that right? RuneQuest was entirely off my radar when Mongoose ran the show. I should track those down.

Mongoose is hated as a publisher ("creative differences" between Mongoose and Chaosium relating to Glorantha lore), but we shouldn't hate the authors themselves, particularly for the second incarnation of MRQ2 (by Lawrence Whittaker, who has done some good RQ work).

In MRQ1 - Magic of Glorantha has a 25 page chapter on Heroquesting - about 5 pages of basic mechanics, and 20 pages more specific to cults - including rewards.

MRQ2's Cults of Glorantha has three and a bit pages giving a general overview and some mechanics. However, under each cult is a small idea for a HQ.

Note that MRQ uses some different mechanics in general, although they shouldn't be too difficult to convert.

The general principles (such as using stations) are similar to @soltakss's work anyway, so if you have that, you'll basically be good!

[soltakss]

On 4/5/2022 at 5:46 PM, Eff said:

Yes. What I am arguing is that Runequest is not a game where this kind of thing is playable, and you just can't make Gunda as an NPC or PC in Runequest and have her play entirely by the rules (because eventually a critical would get through all of her armor or whatever), and if you want to play on her level, you need a different game with a different set of genre assumptions going on. 

You can still play her by the rules.

If she has a Special Ability that prevents her from dying when she reaches 0 HPs, or stops her going into shock when a limb is torn off, for example, then you are still playing by the rules.

Personally, I don't play "Dead at 0 HPs", as I think it is a terrible rule for heroic Adventurers.

On 4/5/2022 at 6:35 PM, EpicureanDM said:

I'm glad you posted both of these lists because they illustrate part of what has frustrated me in the past. The first quote is accurate, but too broad and abstract for someone who wants to use RQ's rules. I can tell that you did use the rules, but you aren't being specific. In the second quote, though, we're in the details. We've got spell names, how many times they're stacked, different Multispell techniques, etc. (I'm starting to get a sense of how much folks leaned on Multispell back in the day.) Someone reading RQG today can look at those spell names and draw direct connections to what's in the book they're holding. They can try to pull off those same feats or get inspired to create their own.

As I said, the campaign was 25 years, or so, ago, so I don't have specifics.

Also, specifics change for each Adventurer and NPC in the combat. What works for Soltak StormSpear would not necessarily work for another character.

On 4/5/2022 at 7:08 PM, EpicureanDM said:

I wondered if this would come up! I suppose my stance is that if you publish a stat block, the players should be able to kill it using the published rules of your game (no home-brew Heroquesting). Allowances can be made, I suppose, for stuff like The Crimson Bat if you specifically call out that those stats are "stunt stats", as Chaosium does in the Bestiary. 

If it has Stats then you can kill it.

If it hasn't got Stats then you can probably kill it.

Some people have special NPCs that they think are integral to the plot and that they won't let Adventurers kill. I have never understood that, as it means the plot is so flimsy that killing someone derails it.

On 4/5/2022 at 7:08 PM, EpicureanDM said:

EDIT: It's not that I expect my PCs to defeat the Leika, but I hope they'll defeat someone as powerful. So I'm keen to understand how to use the rules to have fun fighting someone that powerful.

You use standard RuneQuest rules.

• Using missile volleys, hoping for Criticals, to ignore armour
• Boosting your skill level to get enough Anti-Parry to overcome their high skill
• Using Demoralise to reduce their skills
• Using Fanaticism to reduce their chance of parrying
• Combined attacks to reduce their chances of parrying
• Dispelling their spells (As we said in our game, Dispelling them down to their undies)
• Having Healing and other healing rune spells on tap, using Allied Spirits
• Engaging them in Spirit Combat
• Using Elementals against them (Heatshock causes massive damage,. Fear/Madness can disable or kill them, Opening and closing a pit can break their legs, tossing them off a cliff can hurt when they land, Drowning them might be useful)

On 4/5/2022 at 9:35 PM, PhilHibbs said:

If you want to defeat the powerful enemies in Simon's Secrets of Dorastor book, then why not try using some of the material from Simon's Secrets of Heroquesting book? I suspect that he put the former out purely to create demand for the latter...

I didn't, really, as both Dorastor and HeroQuesting have played big parts in my Campaigns.

But, sure, you can use HeroQuesting as a buff, in case the Secrets of Dorastor NPCs aren't powerful enough for you.

 

Edited May 15, 2022 by soltakss

[French Desperate WindChild]

it is interesting to see how the fun may vary.

I love that there are some entities in the background that pc cannot do more than only survive if they face them.

of course after a lot of research, bargain with greater entities, negociation with clan/tribe ring, sacrifice of village or nation, etc... that could be nice to defeat a god but in this case, it is, for me, more a campaing than just a fight

I would be frustrated if I were able to kill a true dragon (or even Harreck), just because I have enough spells and 100,200 or even 1000 xp checks.

But so "proud" to defeat her because my group obtain the sacred weapon from the hight priest of JuJu - the only option to cut the golden fern in genert garden-, succeed to create a cult for some forgotten god after 10 years of efforts, decided to send one hundred warriors -why not with one or two pcs - to certain death, accepted that ... then at the end dismiss a star. (that is not a true story, just example)

 

our rules may vary,

our fun may vary

our glorantha may vary

[EpicureanDM]

7 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Mongoose is hated as a publisher ("creative differences" between Mongoose and Chaosium relating to Glorantha lore), but we shouldn't hate the authors themselves, particularly for the second incarnation of MRQ2 (by Lawrence Whittaker, who has done some good RQ work).

I'm a big fan of Whittaker and don't feel as protective over Glorantha as most. I'll definitely see if I can track down those books somehow.

 

6 hours ago, soltakss said:

You use standard RuneQuest rules.

• Using missile volleys, hoping for Criticals, to ignore armour
• Boosting your skill level to get enough Anti-Parry to overcome their high skill
• Using Demoralise to reduce their skills
• Using Fanaticism to reduce their chance of parrying
• Combined attacks to reduce their chances of parrying
• Dispelling their spells (As we said in our game, Dispelling them down to their undies)
• Having Healing and other healing rune spells on tap, using Allied Spirits
• Engaging them in Spirit Combat
• Using Elementals against them (Heatshock causes massive damage,. Fear/Madness can disable or kill them, Opening and closing a pit can break their legs, tossing them off a cliff can hurt when they land, Drowning them might be useful)

As I said elsewhere, RQ old-timers might be surprised by how what they think of as "obvious" or "standard" isn't perceived that way by people with less RQ experience.

[ffilz]

17 hours ago, icebrand said:

You needed two weeks of downtime to reflect on your deeds to roll checks on rq3, so triple that time!

Also, having an adventure every week (or every 3) seems like... Too much?

In RQG those 4 years become 40!!! Much more reasonable!

I think that 4 years and an adventure every week was intended to be player time, not character time.

[icebrand]

Just now, ffilz said:

I think that 4 years and an adventure every week was intended to be player time, not character time.

4 years is just 20 skill checks. With a 20% xp mod that's just +14% skill average!!!

[davecake]

On 4/2/2022 at 6:40 PM, svensson said:

a] Our characters are not central to the story of the Hero Wars and the defeat of the Red Goddess. Those roles are reserved for Argrath, Jar-Eel, Harrek the Berserk, and the Red Emperor. Our characters,

I always find the idea that PCs are unimportant because they aren’t Argrath very odd. It’s a bit like saying it’s not worth playing in a WW 2 setting if you don’t get to replace Churchill - for most of the Hero Wars history, Argrath can be treated as a commander and a quest giver, and your characters defeat some unique threat (even one that threatens to destroy the world through Chaos, or reviving God Learner heresies, even one involving Argrath as part of the threat (perhaps he doesn’t know that he might provoke a second Dragonkill until you stop him from carrying out his plan)). 

Or saying why play a superhero game if you aren’t Superman. The idea that the game isn’t worth playing if you can’t potentially punch out the most powerful characters in the setting is a strange one to me. It’s saying the only satisfying game is a sort of game I find definitively unsatisfying. A game in which all threats can be overcome by force does not excite me. The SuperRuneQuest, beat up Harrek and Jar-Eel and the Bat, seems a line of reasoning that ends with the D&D Deities and Demigods as high level Monster Manual scenario. One in which your PCs convince Jar-Eel to turn on the Red Emperor, or distract Harrek by raising a sexy bear goddess , etc sounds more fun to me than one in which you beat them up and there are no threats that cannot be defeated with force. 

It is very easy to have games where the actions of your characters are central. I think stories that concentrate on a vital microcosm of a broader world - the story of one clan, or one town, one family, are fine. After, that’s still the great majority of all stories ever. But if you want a story in which your players are the ones that save the world, then offer a different perspective on the story we know. 

All which is:

a) not intended to say that your gonzo, over the top game that ends with you skinning the Crimson Bat with Arkats Adamantine Sword, then defeating Harrek because you now have an even more powerful god-as-clothing-item, is wrong or anything. If that floats your boat, you do you. It’s just that the idea that games that don’t allow for that kind of ending are somehow flawed seems ridiculous to me, and it’s a bit of a bugbear when people suggest that playing RQ the way the vast majority do instead is somehow lacking. 
and b) a bit off the main topic. In suggesting that what I consider high level play is doable and fun, I just wanted to add the caveat that I think high level play starts a long way below the Superhero level, and there is a huge load of fun to be had without ever getting to the point of kicking over the furniture of the setting. And if we ever did get to the point of PCs directly taking on Harrek etc, I’d like it to have several more layers of adding expanded layers of complexity to the game, whole extra rules sets that we are a fair way away from, rather than just like an RQ fight with bigger numbers. You should at least have to, I don’t know, find Harreks secret horcruxes or something. 

 

[icebrand]

1 minute ago, davecake said:

I always find the idea that PCs are unimportant because they aren’t Argrath very odd. It’s a bit like saying it’s not worth playing in a WW 2 setting if you don’t get to replace Churchill - for most of the Hero Wars history, Argrath can be treated as a commander and a quest giver, and your characters defeat some unique threat (even one that threatens to destroy the world through Chaos, or reviving God Learner heresies, even one involving Argrath as part of the threat (perhaps he doesn’t know that he might provoke a second Dragonkill until you stop him from carrying out his plan)). 

Or saying why play a superhero game if you aren’t Superman. The idea that the game isn’t worth playing if you can’t potentially punch out the most powerful characters in the setting is a strange one to me. It’s saying the only satisfying game is a sort of game I find definitively unsatisfying. A game in which all threats can be overcome by force does not excite me. The SuperRuneQuest, beat up Harrek and Jar-Eel and the Bat, seems a line of reasoning that ends with the D&D Deities and Demigods as high level Monster Manual scenario. One in which your PCs convince Jar-Eel to turn on the Red Emperor, or distract Harrek by raising a sexy bear goddess , etc sounds more fun to me than one in which you beat them up and there are no threats that cannot be defeated with force. 

It is very easy to have games where the actions of your characters are central. I think stories that concentrate on a vital microcosm of a broader world - the story of one clan, or one town, one family, are fine. After, that’s still the great majority of all stories ever. But if you want a story in which your players are the ones that save the world, then offer a different perspective on the story we know. 

All which is:

a) not intended to say that your gonzo, over the top game that ends with you skinning the Crimson Bat with Arkats Adamantine Sword, then defeating Harrek because you now have an even more powerful god-as-clothing-item, is wrong or anything. If that floats your boat, you do you. It’s just that the idea that games that don’t allow for that kind of ending are somehow flawed seems ridiculous to me, and it’s a bit of a bugbear when people suggest that playing RQ the way the vast majority do instead is somehow lacking. 
and b) a bit off the main topic. In suggesting that what I consider high level play is doable and fun, I just wanted to add the caveat that I think high level play starts a long way below the Superhero level, and there is a huge load of fun to be had without ever getting to the point of kicking over the furniture of the setting. And if we ever did get to the point of PCs directly taking on Harrek etc, I’d like it to have several more layers of adding expanded layers of complexity to the game, whole extra rules sets that we are a fair way away from, rather than just like an RQ fight with bigger numbers. You should at least have to, I don’t know, find Harreks secret horcruxes or something. 

 

I kinda-sorta agree with you, my issue is on harrek having 1000% attack because "he's the main character" when this doesn't make sense in the rules.

I don't necessarily need my players to beat harrek; in fact he's not important at all in my current campaign (may as well not exist), but i do need harrek to not be a rules aberration so the PCs can't kill.

It rubs me the wrong way, same as elminster being "highest level +3" if the PCs are leveled enough. I mean cmon that's serious bullshit

[g33k]

11 hours ago, icebrand said:

... It rubs me the wrong way, same as elminster being "highest level +3" if the PCs are leveled enough. I mean cmon that's serious bullshit

OTOH, if it took Elminster 1000 years (of PC-style backstory) to become the mage the 20something characters are facing today... expecting they can level-up (in normal-ish game-play) to Elminster's level is also kinda bullshit, innit?

Also:
I will never -- ever -- be the kind of physicist that Einstein or Hawking were.  I will never play football on the level of a Tom Brady or a Joe Montana.  I mean... yeah, I'm older now, so "duh."  But... I never could have been.  It doesn't matter how much work I (could have) put in.  Some people really do have inherent talents, physiques, and other advantages that -- if they put in the same effort you&I do -- mean that you&I will never "catch up" to them.

It flies in the face of modern ideals of a "level playing field" and "you can achieve any goal you work hard for" &c... but it's the truth.

Edited April 9, 2022 by g33k

[davecake]

On 4/3/2022 at 4:47 AM, Bill the barbarian said:

so humble, I have said this many times but this combo rules the ranged Gloranthan battlefield. Big time! I am glad that Javelins are so expensive!

I think it is a positive thing about the RQ rules that many of the tactics that were popular and effective in the rough time period it aims to emulate are effective enough to be plausibly popular and effective in play, and magic often only enhances that. Peltasts were a big deal, javelins an important part of single combat stories, and eventually Rome conquered Europe with a distinct fondness for pilums. 
Similarly, it’s great that the shield wall rules make it a pretty good tactic for soldiers (if not necessarily PC parties). And that Sun Dome phalangites are especially effective (leaving aside Yelmalios uniquely crappy magic, the only fighting cult that decreases your access to weapon enhancing magic). 
I tend to see times when the rules lead to ahistorical tactical preferences, at least for ‘average’ fighters without masses of magic, as a flaw. Eg 1h spears are currently very poor weapons, and short swords are also terrible, with no reason to use them at all. Both were super popular in the Bronze Age, and the rules should reflect that. But we have a few challenges in correcting decades of experience with rules that say otherwise, often based on ideas from SCA fighting experience that we might think about differently now ( just as we removed bastard swords), 

What does this have to do with high power play? Not much, except that high power play is sometimes the only way to test some rules to see if they work as designed. The tactics cults encourage their warrior leaders to use should be effective ones for high powered play. 
 

The rules do make certain tactics more or less effective, and that changes the details of the setting a bit, eventually flowing into scenarios and then fiction.

An example - in RQ2, attack and parry being separate, very few advantage for shields above other parrying weapon besides higher base chance (an advantage that disappeared with experience), and the power of the ‘action economy’ meant that two Sword fighting was a very effective tactic, and we saw this creep into the fiction, such as the (quite classic) image of Bolthor and Oddi the Keen heading into battle with an iron bastard sword in each hand from Cults of Terror.
In RQG, attacking with a shield is always at a high percentage, and it has distinct advantages such as passive shielding - so starting an off hand weapon at a tiny percentage is rather less inviting just to get the option of an off hand attack. And an advantage in attack percentage always counts for something. So even for berserk’s and such, Sword and shield is likely to continue to be the popular option for PCs. Which I like, because we can have berserk’s that chew their shields just like the sagas say. 

[davecake]

On 4/3/2022 at 4:59 AM, svensson said:

May I then suggest sending some of the Jonstown Tribal Ring NPCs from the 'Starter Set' up against Branbane the Ghoul King from 'Pegasus Plateau'?

Actually my feeling was that Brangbane on his own was quite vulnerable for such a classic villain - he has only one defensive combat option, parrying with his sword at 110% (really, far too low for an ancient horror). He can maybe overwhelm a single opponent with two attacks, but if multiple opponents survive his howl, especially if they have beefed up attack %ages (such as Berserk or Sword Trance, but Bladesharp 6 will do it, and always punch right through his armor). He also has no physical defences beyond ok armour (people taking him 9n are likely to have shield), and no magical defences either. He is also very vulnerable to spirit combat. And while the howl is a great ability, his other tough ability, paralysing venom, requires it to hit, to not be parried, and then to overcome Con with venom Pot - mostly, it will get parried, if he uses it at all. He also has no normal magic at all, and no healing of any kind, so could be befuddled, Mind Blasted, etc. He is unpleasant, but against a competent ‘rune level’ party able to take him on, he should go down very quick. 
He struck me as having been statted out by someone with limited familiarity with high powered RQ combat. He looks dangerous, but he is a bit of a glass cannon.

Against, say, a decent Death Lord or Kargs Son (at this point, I’ve statted out several troll rune lords that should end up in Chaosium publications, any of them would do) he is going down very quick unless his howl stops them. And they could arguably block that with Counter Chaos pretty easily. 

[davecake]

14 hours ago, soltakss said:

Personally, I don't play "Dead ay 0 HPs", as I think it is a terrible rule for heroic Adventurers.

I don’t either, both for that reason, and because talking to my wife, who is an emergency physician, and her colleagues has made it clear that the gap between ‘unconscious and dying’ and actually dead is quite a bit larger than most rpgs, including RQ, make it. Sure, mostly people in that condition are going to die without serious help, but usually in several minutes not instantly, and modern emergency medicine is pretty astonishing compared to pre-modern equivalents, but Heal Body is pretty astonishing too. 

[icebrand]

20 minutes ago, davecake said:

Actually my feeling was that Brangbane on his own was quite vulnerable for such a classic villain - he has only one defensive combat option, parrying with his sword at 110% (really, far too low for an ancient horror). He can maybe overwhelm a single opponent with two attacks, but if multiple opponents survive his howl, especially if they have beefed up attack %ages (such as Berserk or Sword Trance, but Bladesharp 6 will do it, and always punch right through his armor). He also has no physical defences beyond ok armour (people taking him 9n are likely to have shield), and no magical defences either. He is also very vulnerable to spirit combat. And while the howl is a great ability, his other tough ability, paralysing venom, requires it to hit, to not be parried, and then to overcome Con with venom Pot - mostly, it will get parried, if he uses it at all. He also has no normal magic at all, and no healing of any kind, so could be befuddled, Mind Blasted, etc. He is unpleasant, but against a competent ‘rune level’ party able to take him on, he should go down very quick. 
He struck me as having been statted out by someone with limited familiarity with high powered RQ combat. He looks dangerous, but he is a bit of a glass cannon.

Against, say, a decent Death Lord or Kargs Son (at this point, I’ve statted out several troll rune lords that should end up in Chaosium publications, any of them would do) he is going down very quick unless his howl stops them. And they could arguably block that with Counter Chaos pretty easily. 

Pretty much anyone on rune masters can take him on, and if you have a rune level party... Well, that's a Mook not a boss.

Heck, a couple Broo from borderlands are scarier, the Malia priest has more %, and way better magic!

And as for Uz... A Death Lord that got his runelordship yesterday wins low diff (actually stomps so hard it ain't even funny).

I disagree that 110% is wrong though, sure, it's an eldritch horror, but it's not a runelord that checks his iron every.single.season.

The monster may very well go years and years without a real fight!

Having said that, this dude shouldn't ever fight alone or fairly (unless the adventurers played well and are slaying it)

Edited April 8, 2022 by icebrand

[davecake]

On 4/3/2022 at 1:43 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Mindblast at the Humakti?  That's a great spell for GMs, or for PCs fighting awesome 400% Dorastor Chaos, because once it works it works: it can't be dispelled. 

We did work out there is a potential slight workaround - you can cast Restore INT, and maybe get them up from 0 to only being an idiot. 
But yeah, often Mind Blast is in some situations worse than being dead! 

[Dr. Devici]

3 hours ago, icebrand said:

I kinda-sorta agree with you, my issue is on harrek having 1000% attack because "he's the main character" when this doesn't make sense in the rules.

I don't necessarily need my players to beat harrek; in fact he's not important at all in my current campaign (may as well not exist), but i do need harrek to not be a rules aberration so the PCs can't kill.

It rubs me the wrong way, same as elminster being "highest level +3" if the PCs are leveled enough. I mean cmon that's serious bullshit

I could be completely wrong about this, but given the current stat blocks we have for RQG, I'm guessing that characters like Harrek don't have a natural 1000% in any weapon skill. I wouldn't be surprised to see a stat block for Jar-eel at some point that gives her a natural ~200% in her main weapons, with the addendum that she also has a couple dozen retainers whose jobs are to load her up with every kind of magic before she ever enters combat. The real heavy hitters of the setting will probably stand out because of community support, personal magical reserves, and specific heroquest gifts rather than just having 2000% in their skills across the board.

[g33k]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Device said:

I could be completely wrong about this, but given the current stat blocks we have for RQG, I'm guessing that characters like Harrek don't have a natural 1000% in any weapon skill. I wouldn't be surprised to see a stat block for Jar-eel at some point that gives her a natural ~200% in her main weapons, with the addendum that she also has a couple dozen retainers whose jobs are to load her up with every kind of magic before she ever enters combat. The real heavy hitters of the setting will probably stand out because of community support, personal magical reserves, and specific heroquest gifts rather than just having 2000% in their skills across the board.

Jar-Eel is presumed to be an actual avatar of the Red Goddess.  So I don't think she rolled her stats -- or her skill-gain rolls -- on the same tables that the PCs do.

Similarly, Harrek killed (and consumed the powers of) his White Bear God.  After your PCs do something comparable, then come back and complain about how overpowered the Heavy Hitters are.

😉

But yeah; in other regards, I agree that community-support, and followers / bound spirits / etc who cast a metric crapton on buff's onto you, are certainly among the ladder-steps to ascend the Hero / Superhero / Demigod / etc progression...

[Dr. Devici]

1 minute ago, g33k said:

Jar-Eel is presumed to be an actual avatar of the Red Goddess.  So I don't think she rolled her stats -- or her skill-gain rolls -- on the same tables that the PCs do.

I'd say a natural 200% in a weapon skill is already plenty ridiculous as it is! The Crimson Bat, a god in its own right, has 100% as its highest rated attack skill. Despite such a modest attack rating, I would still recommend not getting into a fight with the bat under nearly any circumstances.

[davecake]

1 hour ago, icebrand said:

kinda-sorta agree with you, my issue is on harrek having 1000% attack because "he's the main character" when this doesn't make sense in the rules.

He’s never been officially statted, so does he have 1000%?

I think one of the persistent problems is people extrapolating incorrectly from Dragon Pass Combat Factors saying Argrath can take on a regiment (and Harrek can take on 5), to assuming we need SuperRuneQuest rules because heroes and superheroes take on a regiment in a big damn fight, the way Superman would. 
But I don’t think that’s intended. They take on a regiment more the way Batman would, or Doctor Who - planning, identifying their weaknesses, a bit of use of various special and exotic resources, and having a bunch of companions with their own special talents doing their part. When Argrath defeats a regiment, that doesn’t mean he, or even he and his companions, stab them all in a stand up fight. It means Argrath finds the point where the whole regiment has to pass through the one narrow point, his priestess summons the local spirit of place, his sorcerers cast a great spell, Elusu seduces the commander, etc and the whole unit ends up in the one avalanche with Argrath and friends slaughtering the fleeing survivors from a huge tactical vantage point. Or whatever. Hero units are like good adventuring parties - they are much better than average people at fighting, but also use magic, creativity, teamwork and a huge rank of tricks and tactics and such. 
And sure, Harrek and Jar-Eel are really really good at stabbing people. But they are the same, only more so - what really matters is not what their attack % ages are, but that both a direct connection to a god to draw on, have a range of magic tricks an resources for practically every thing, have expert advisors who have warned g

him of your coming, magically anticipated you, are already in the middle of heroquesting. Harrek isn’t just a guy in a cloak that stabs you. He is a guy who has other expert fighters around him, with shamans guarding the spirit world, Jonatelan sorcerers buffing him, whose Tricksters have already anticipated yours, whose companions have access to the stolen treasures of a hundred lands. Harrek himself isn’t just a great fighter, and a guy who has a god at his beck and call, but he is also a great heroquester, an experienced dart warrior, an inspiring leader, and the core of a team of experts who support each other. All of that is why he is a superhero. 

[EpicureanDM]

4 hours ago, davecake said:

b) a bit off the main topic. In suggesting that what I consider high level play is doable and fun, I just wanted to add the caveat that I think high level play starts a long way below the Superhero level, and there is a huge load of fun to be had without ever getting to the point of kicking over the furniture of the setting. And if we ever did get to the point of PCs directly taking on Harrek etc, I’d like it to have several more layers of adding expanded layers of complexity to the game, whole extra rules sets that we are a fair way away from, rather than just like an RQ fight with bigger numbers. You should at least have to, I don’t know, find Harreks secret horcruxes or something. 

Agreed on all of this. It makes me wonder about what you mentioned in a subsequent reply:

3 hours ago, davecake said:

Actually my feeling was that Brangbane on his own was quite vulnerable for such a classic villain - he has only one defensive combat option, parrying with his sword at 110% (really, far too low for an ancient horror). He can maybe overwhelm a single opponent with two attacks, but if multiple opponents survive his howl, especially if they have beefed up attack %ages (such as Berserk or Sword Trance, but Bladesharp 6 will do it, and always punch right through his armor). He also has no physical defences beyond ok armour (people taking him 9n are likely to have shield), and no magical defences either. He is also very vulnerable to spirit combat. And while the howl is a great ability, his other tough ability, paralysing venom, requires it to hit, to not be parried, and then to overcome Con with venom Pot - mostly, it will get parried, if he uses it at all. He also has no normal magic at all, and no healing of any kind, so could be befuddled, Mind Blasted, etc. He is unpleasant, but against a competent ‘rune level’ party able to take him on, he should go down very quick. 

He struck me as having been statted out by someone with limited familiarity with high powered RQ combat. He looks dangerous, but he is a bit of a glass cannon. [emphasis added]

Even before this thread sharpened my ability to analyze stat blocks, I felt the same way about some of the published antagonists/bad guys/bosses I've seen in RQG. Not with this degree of depth or precision, more of an intuition. 

It makes me discount many of the published stat blocks I read. I don't get the sense that anything's really that tough for a group of RQ PCs or fun for the GM to run. Because of how this thread's gone, I hasten to add that it's not that his numbers are too high or too low, but that there's nothing really behind the numbers.

4 hours ago, davecake said:

What does this have to do with high power play? Not much, except that high power play is sometimes the only way to test some rules to see if they work as designed. The tactics cults encourage their warrior leaders to use should be effective ones for high powered play. 

Definitely.

 

[Shiningbrow]

I'm firmly on the side of "the PCs should be able to make it to superhero status".

However, I'd also like to emphasise something that's been hinted at before (especially about Dorastor). Some have said that it's a place that heroes go to die... I'd like to emphasise that this actually means - it's a place where the GM can kill off the PCs.

While making it to superhero level (and take on Harrek, Argrath, etc) should be possible - the actual chances of that should be extremely low, and I don't think the GM should be saving them just for this outcome.

Game balance isn't supposed to be a think in RQ. There are things that will kill your PC in a second. There are clearly things that stop almost anything that your PCs can throw at them.

But... again, the PCs should be able to take them on... successfully... eventually.

The Crimson Bat was defeated. I'd like to see how. Because the NPCs written up so far who did it certainly aren't capable of that! And if the NPCs can do it, so should the PCs.

Same with the Dragonrise... it should be possible. And there should be some some sort of rules that allow for that, which don't mean a complete overhaul of the RQG rules - in fact, they need to align with those rules for it to be consistent.

I suspect that the Heroquest rules will allow for this, largely without any other additions required. But, again, GMs will need to be responsible about it. The real heroes have been on many many many HQs - and survived (and, one should suspect, in many of them - just! One bad roll, and it could have all been over. One super-lucky well-timed crit to save the day...). For every Harrek and Argrath, there are probably a few thousand corpses - the PCs could join them... or not! And I do think there should most definitely be times when that one (super-unlikely) dice roll is the difference between the PC surviving, and not.

With great risk comes great reward...

 

(Ps - Leika et al. isn't anywhere near close to 18th level... at best she's 12th, and probably closer to 9th. And RQG starting characters are about 5th, with RQ2/3 PCs about 1st/2nd)

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

The Crimson Bat was defeated. I'd like to see how. Because the NPCs written up so far who did it certainly aren't capable of that! And if the NPCs can do it, so should the PCs.

If I remember, hundred of wind lords souls were lost for that. They were not only killed (aka welcome in Orlanth Hall) they were destroyed.

and for me the x000% of the bat shows that: you cannot destroy the bat with a weapon.

You must do other things, killing the priests (and the "monsters" on its body), using some magic or maybe "just" sacrifice people

 

My dumb theory :

18 POW * hundred rune lords were "eaten" by the bat.. the bat may be defeated by indigestion not by any successful action of orlanthi

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

18 POW * hundred rune lords were "eaten" by the bat.. the bat may be defeated by indigestion not by any successful action of orlanthi

😜

 

Possibly - but again, we're left with a "how?" What were hundreds of Wind Lords capable of achieving? Because we certainly don't have anything in the rules to account for that.

Edited April 9, 2022 by Shiningbrow

[French Desperate WindChild]

Yes  that is another question however 

mass battle and mass magic 

how does it work ?

well priority to hq rules then mass rules 😛