Using the rules of the game, how are PCs expected to defeat "high-level" opponents?

[Aiun]

On 4/4/2022 at 5:08 PM, Eff said:

I ended up, by mutual agreement with my player, ditching the RQ rules and using mostly ad hoc experiments to handle things like a three-way naval chase between Gunda, the PCs' magical ship, and a Trowjang Amazon warship. Or direct contests between characters struggling for things. 

Because RQ doesn't have an 18th level and isn't the genre of game where you can naturally become someone who can stare Gunda down. So once my game moved into a domain where this was a desired plot feature, of being a mover and shaker on that level, then I just ditched the inappropriate system.

That was a really fun session! A couple of remarks, though, in light of the rest of the thread.

Gunda is an anomaly in our campaign, as the only person we've technically "fought." That really comes from me. I think Eff would be happy to provide combat NPCs, but I'm a pacifist Quaker in real life, and TTRPGs feel very close to life for me. I turned down a few opportunities early on to unsheathe my rapier, and Eff got the point quickly and adjusted the game.

So, the extent of my "fighting" was to call upon the Calm Air of Entekos to restrain Gunda's ship so the Trowjang navy could eventually board it. Well, great, we captured her, but it turns out she had tricked us, so a series of delicate negotiations proceeded, the ultimate result of which was alliance. No amount of Multispell or the like would have got me there, which is where I actually wanted to be.

So, another way to put it is that we ditched the RQ rules because combat ability became something it wasn't worth rolling for. We did the plot work to establish that my character and her allies are magical enough that fighting them isn't the brightest of ideas for nearly anyone in the canon. For a campaign devoted to changing the course of the Hero Wars through diplomacy, it was rather out of scope to plan out advanced spellcasting strategies, so I, at least, never gave it a serious try.

[Soccercalle]

9 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

There’s a genre expectation that heroic adventurers could heroquest / obtain tomes & blessings etc. to bump up skills that would otherwise be slow or tedious to increase.

The alternative is No Fun, which is in direct conflict with MGF and is therefore deprecated.

That would be easier with official rules for heroquesting from the beginning. And nor after 40? years 😉

But I as a GM will of course help them. But I think its part if the fun that they will to fight for it and play low-level for a while. We are more than half way thru Six Seasons and a all of the players really appreciate playing novice teenagers. Most of them are RPG veterans and think this is cooler than starting with rune level characters. I guess that they will reach rune level appr after the first third of Company of the Dragon. They will probably - if they live - be heroes when we play your Black Spear campaign.

 

[Dr. Devici]

10 hours ago, EpicureanDM said:

I dare say that another alternative is to design the game so that bumping skills isn't slow or tedious. 😉

I'd say skill progression in RuneQuest is one of the system's stronger elements. The problem is with rune levels being locked behind strict skill and passion thresholds in a system where your ability to progress any of those individual statistics is both gradual and inconsistent. It might even be worse in RQG given how much closer you start to reaching rune levels. You're agonizing over those final steps right off the bat.

But then, heroquesting is a perfectly fine solution here. Having a tool to translate directed efforts for character advancement into the basis for an adventure is probably a net positive for the game.

[French Desperate WindChild]

12 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

There’s a genre expectation that heroic adventurers could heroquest / obtain tomes & blessings etc. to bump up skills that would otherwise be slow or tedious to increase.

for sure !

but without guidance that is a door open for too much possibilities

What is the bump ? +10% ? +30%? without any limit ? or just gain 90% in the skill (like cult's gift) etc...

if there is no guidance some will follow a way, other another one, and we face the original issue :

a table / GM is not confortable with some JC publication (or another table / GM) just because the bumps are different.

Personaly, I have no issue to invent "bump" aligned (same level of) with the humakt/yelmalio/shaman gifts

But is it the "standard" level for anything ?

 

that is the same with mp : some will give extra mp at very high level:  the rules give a little cost to obtain matrix/enchant from npc.

Some will give 60mp (or other enchant)to a pc when other will consider that obtaining 10extra mp is already a great gain.

I know that is MGF.

 

But that is exactly what happened in @EpicureanDM and this post origin:

if the material proposed (jc, answer in this forum, etc...) is not aligned with your own interpretation of the rule, you may be lost.

I was lost 20years (?) ago with heroquesting background before I found the great @soltakss website. It helped me a lot (Simon was the first, great thank for that) to understand heroquest in glorantha but I spent a lot of time to realize that the new issue I faced with his gain (and associate super critical rules) was not my understanding of the mechanics but just that @soltakss's MGF is not mine MGF (and that's fine, no issue).

 

I may be wrong, I hope I am wrong, but my fear is that too many people may try runequest, face some issue because there is a wide range of interpretation and then feeling they are "lost", decide to stop with runequest and go to other rpg, less rich, but simpler and more conforting.

I want chaosium to have more and more customers, to gain more and more money. Because I m selfish. More money for chaosium = more background publication (and maybe some rules too) = more material, faster, for me.

More dream and pleasure for me. I want to feel again the intellecutal "erotocomatose lucidity" reading new material . Not in ten years. Now ! 😛

 

Well, I get a little carried away... maybe. I have some excuse... after all I m an old french desperate but passionate windchild. Having an air rune at 100% is difficult to live

[JRE]

Checking old files, some RQ3 characters in my extremely old campaign reached combat skills in the 200% range, by simple frequent experience use. But the players would never have voluntarily traveled to Dorastor. Just because you have a fighting chance does not mean you want to run terrible risks. The Coders were more up to their league, and they were scary by their flexibility and magic.

They probably would be considered murder hobos now, and that also meant they were much weaker than an equivalent skills well integrated Rune level. No Rune magic, except the true murder hobo Eurmali killer. No iron equipment. No DI (a big disadvantage). As unaffiliated strangers, no "military equipment", such as heavy armor, shields or crossbows. 

It is fun to be the expendable troubleshooters, and they enjoyed travelling around and visiting the sights, but even with high skills Runequest is quite lethal without the safety net of DI, cultic Ressurrection and ransom. That meant most published scenarios were very playable with small adjustments, except for Dorastor... That probably would change in RQG, as the change to parry makes being outnumbered a small risk for people with 200% combat skills.

As for HQ, standard responses would be covered by your cult lore, Worship now in RQG. But the well known path has normally a small reward, unless you go deeper and the strength of the opposition increases a lot.

This is all my own take after many years. Taking the Hill of Gold well known quest. If you do it as a Yelmalian, the traditional way gives you a temporary boost to Endurance and reinforces your lack of fire powers. If you go deeper, it may well be difficult to survive, as the 90% Maul troll becomes a 200% Death Lord with full Rune magic package, but you may well get a permanent endurance or self healing effect, as well as probably being unable to even light a campfire. At the limit you could meet Zorak Zoran's avatar and you need really heroic abilities to avoid death, but you may well become immortal if you succeed. I would not make the player roll anything but combat and resistance rolls, as the quest is straightforward, and death does not mean you die, but will weaken you somehow in a MGF fashion. In the traditional way you cannot hurt the troll, so you are bound to be beaten, but you need to survive it. 

If you go off the traditional and try to actually beat the troll, then you may have to go against your training, and test other lores (we had Arkati lore as the tool to change the mythic path), or fail a loyalty Yelmalio, just to be able to try. And then you need to beat the above ZZ representative, and Orlanth earlier if you really want to have a chance against ZZ. But if you do it at the basic level, you can use fire magic for a season, at the second threshold you can do it indefinitely (till you do the quest "right"), and possibly get some kind of Yelm like Fire access in the third. Or a special power against ZZ or even trolls. Or with even better lore and possibly even some orlanthi lore, you could beat Orlanth, get his sandals of darkness and leave him for Zorak Zoran to maul, and now you get access to Darkwalk and trolls are suddenly stronger against orlanthi... (only at the highest immersion levels).

Does it seem we winged it? Of course! But it gets much easier with practise, and in my experience players will quickly start proposing well thought out myths to reenact. It is better if it is the players proposing, and the GM highlighting what are the "basic" benefits, so they start considering whether to go deeper, or even to go astray, and not something coming from some musty mailing list or a fifty years old manuscript with coffee and beer stains. They are good as suggestions and pointers, but should not be a Holy Scripture.

[Darius West]

32 minutes ago, JRE said:

Checking old files, some RQ3 characters in my extremely old campaign reached combat skills in the 200% range, by simple frequent experience use. But the players would never have voluntarily traveled to Dorastor. Just because you have a fighting chance does not mean you want to run terrible risks. The Coders were more up to their league, and they were scary by their flexibility and magic.

If you look at the old Dorastor module, one of the suggested motives for the campaign is that it is for Orlanth Pantheon characters approaching heroic level who have run foul of the Lunar Authorities.  The Lunars will let them migrate to Dorastor with a clean slate and free land.  Add to this the fairly gripping story told in Cults of Terror about the war against Ralzakark, and you have the basis for an interesting campaign that can potentially kill overly-powerful characters.

[SevenSistersOfVinga]

I'm a bit lost, what are these powers that seem so relevant to high level game play and at the same time not mentioned on the rulebook, what's the need of above 200% that I need to find and alternative form of experience/rules?

I know I must be missing the elephant in the room but I see the hero quests as a way to bypass social/cult conventions. To get and do things others can't. 

"You need 200L to learn this spell from another cult ... but since you did that... "

"The priests every year paint your neck blue and wherever you go 2 points of cloud call follows, you need to be back every year and delight us with your stories"

I see more power on enchanted matrices of forgotten cults, traded spells, spirit pacts with old gods,  extended spells, maybe shamanic powers, sorcery spells inscribed on your forehead, gems, runes, rune metals and truth stone. 

I have no idea why everyone finds a sudden power cap at not being able to have over 125% attack. 

What am I missing? The crimson bat has 100% and nobody is stopping him, you can do the same.

(I'm not saying you are all wrong, I truly don't know what it is)

[JustAnotherVingan]

1 hour ago, JRE said:

Checking old files, some RQ3 characters in my extremely old campaign reached combat skills in the 200% range, by simple frequent experience use. But the players would never have voluntarily traveled to Dorastor. Just because you have a fighting chance does not mean you want to run terrible risks. The Coders were more up to their league, and they were scary by their flexibility and magic.

They probably would be considered murder hobos now, and that also meant they were much weaker than an equivalent skills well integrated Rune level. No Rune magic, except the true murder hobo Eurmali killer. No iron equipment. No DI (a big disadvantage). As unaffiliated strangers, no "military equipment", such as heavy armor, shields or crossbows. 

It is fun to be the expendable troubleshooters, and they enjoyed travelling around and visiting the sights, but even with high skills Runequest is quite lethal without the safety net of DI, cultic Ressurrection and ransom. That meant most published scenarios were very playable with small adjustments, except for Dorastor... That probably would change in RQG, as the change to parry makes being outnumbered a small risk for people with 200% combat skills.

As for HQ, standard responses would be covered by your cult lore, Worship now in RQG. But the well known path has normally a small reward, unless you go deeper and the strength of the opposition increases a lot.

This is all my own take after many years. Taking the Hill of Gold well known quest. If you do it as a Yelmalian, the traditional way gives you a temporary boost to Endurance and reinforces your lack of fire powers. If you go deeper, it may well be difficult to survive, as the 90% Maul troll becomes a 200% Death Lord with full Rune magic package, but you may well get a permanent endurance or self healing effect, as well as probably being unable to even light a campfire. At the limit you could meet Zorak Zoran's avatar and you need really heroic abilities to avoid death, but you may well become immortal if you succeed. I would not make the player roll anything but combat and resistance rolls, as the quest is straightforward, and death does not mean you die, but will weaken you somehow in a MGF fashion. In the traditional way you cannot hurt the troll, so you are bound to be beaten, but you need to survive it. 

If you go off the traditional and try to actually beat the troll, then you may have to go against your training, and test other lores (we had Arkati lore as the tool to change the mythic path), or fail a loyalty Yelmalio, just to be able to try. And then you need to beat the above ZZ representative, and Orlanth earlier if you really want to have a chance against ZZ. But if you do it at the basic level, you can use fire magic for a season, at the second threshold you can do it indefinitely (till you do the quest "right"), and possibly get some kind of Yelm like Fire access in the third. Or a special power against ZZ or even trolls. Or with even better lore and possibly even some orlanthi lore, you could beat Orlanth, get his sandals of darkness and leave him for Zorak Zoran to maul, and now you get access to Darkwalk and trolls are suddenly stronger against orlanthi... (only at the highest immersion levels).

Does it seem we winged it? Of course! But it gets much easier with practise, and in my experience players will quickly start proposing well thought out myths to reenact. It is better if it is the players proposing, and the GM highlighting what are the "basic" benefits, so they start considering whether to go deeper, or even to go astray, and not something coming from some musty mailing list or a fifty years old manuscript with coffee and beer stains. They are good as suggestions and pointers, but should not be a Holy Scripture.

I don't think we need specific scenarios for Heroquests but perhaps a book of myths used in the better known heroquests with suggestions and examples of how DMs could use them in their games. From those GMs could  develop their own. The level of detail found in KoDP and Six Ages heroquests would probably be enough.

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, SevenSistersOfVinga said:

I'm a bit lost, what are these powers that seem so relevant to high level game play and at the same time not mentioned on the rulebook, what's the need of above 200% that I need to find and alternative form of experience/rules?

The core rules do not cover high level game play. The rules for heroquesting are not out, and whilst there are some obscene stats occasionally on display they are not intended as combat opponents at the level of play that the core rules cover. There is no need for above 200% in anything for any of the material that Chaosium publish.

Simon has published Secrets of Dorastor to present high level opponents, and Secrets of Heroquesting to provide the high level rules to go "toe to toe" with them, but that's all optional "non-canonical" material.

And even he recommends cheating and using strategic advantage, rather than just straight melee rounds and numbers.

[icebrand]

6 hours ago, SevenSistersOfVinga said:

I'm a bit lost, what are these powers that seem so relevant to high level game play and at the same time not mentioned on the rulebook, what's the need of above 200% that I need to find and alternative form of experience/rules?

I know I must be missing the elephant in the room but I see the hero quests as a way to bypass social/cult conventions. To get and do things others can't. 

"You need 200L to learn this spell from another cult ... but since you did that... "

"The priests every year paint your neck blue and wherever you go 2 points of cloud call follows, you need to be back every year and delight us with your stories"

I see more power on enchanted matrices of forgotten cults, traded spells, spirit pacts with old gods,  extended spells, maybe shamanic powers, sorcery spells inscribed on your forehead, gems, runes, rune metals and truth stone. 

I have no idea why everyone finds a sudden power cap at not being able to have over 125% attack. 

What am I missing? The crimson bat has 100% and nobody is stopping him, you can do the same.

(I'm not saying you are all wrong, I truly don't know what it is)

Crimson bat used to have 3600%. My players (and myself) found that number immersion breaking so i nerfed it to a way more palatable 360%.

You wouldn't believe what happened next!!! (My players killed the bat, that's what lol)

[Akhôrahil]

12 minutes ago, icebrand said:

Crimson bat used to have 3600%.

Diamond Iron Dwarves had 5000%, I believe?

[EpicureanDM]

9 hours ago, Dr. Device said:

I'd say skill progression in RuneQuest is one of the system's stronger elements. The problem is with rune levels being locked behind strict skill and passion thresholds in a system where your ability to progress any of those individual statistics is both gradual and inconsistent. It might even be worse in RQG given how much closer you start to reaching rune levels. You're agonizing over those final steps right off the bat.

But then, heroquesting is a perfectly fine solution here. Having a tool to translate directed efforts for character advancement into the basis for an adventure is probably a net positive for the game.

I very much like RQ's skill progression system. I also like the idea of keeping Rune levels barred behind high skill requirements. I like how those two design elements work together.

Many GMs apparently saw the need for Heroquesting rules for MGF purposes back in the day because their definition of "high level game play" obviously didn't match the designers' definition. It's a well-worn joke among RQ's fans that a game whose setting leans so heavily on Heroquesting has never produced game rules to actually do Heroquesting. 

It's weird to me that RQG's designers decided to raid the pantries of Stormbringer and Pendragon to update RQ2 rather than plug this obvious, 45-year-old gap in the rules. Even the 13th Age Glorantha designers gave it a shot.

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

Add to this the fairly gripping story told in Cults of Terror about the war against Ralzakark, and you have the basis for an interesting campaign that can potentially kill overly-powerful characters.

I do like this "Dorastor is to Glorantha as The Tomb of Horrors is to Greyhawk" take.

7 hours ago, JRE said:

Checking old files, some RQ3 characters in my extremely old campaign reached combat skills in the 200% range, by simple frequent experience use. But the players would never have voluntarily traveled to Dorastor. Just because you have a fighting chance does not mean you want to run terrible risks. The Coders were more up to their league, and they were scary by their flexibility and magic.

They probably would be considered murder hobos now, and that also meant they were much weaker than an equivalent skills well integrated Rune level. No Rune magic, except the true murder hobo Eurmali killer. No iron equipment. No DI (a big disadvantage). As unaffiliated strangers, no "military equipment", such as heavy armor, shields or crossbows.

Another interesting data point. Seeing PCs with 200% combat skills without any of the usual Rune-level bells and whistles doesn't seem very common to me. 😉

4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

The core rules do not cover high level game play. The rules for heroquesting are not out, and whilst there are some obscene stats occasionally on display they are not intended as combat opponents at the level of play that the core rules cover. There is no need for above 200% in anything for any of the material that Chaosium publish.

I do think that the new RQG products have kept a lid on stat blocks. I opened this thread with discussion of a Jonstown product with numbers far beyond what's officially published - except for those exceptions in the Bestiary - so that continuing distraction's my fault.

That's why I've tried to reinforce the point that my interest isn't necessarily in high numbers, but in the complex strategies that come from combining different resources. 🙂

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by EpicureanDM

[icebrand]

7 minutes ago, EpicureanDM said:

That's why I've tried to reinforce the point that my interest isn't necessarily in high numbers, but in the complex strategies that come from combining different resources. 

🙂

 

Game will play FLAWLESS at rune level untill you push past 160%, then it gets... Different? In a bad way.

120-150% with tons of magic is where it's at. If you go much higher there just isn't anything worth fighting anymore.

[JRE]

6 minutes ago, EpicureanDM said:

Another interesting data point. Seeing PCs with 200% combat skills without any of the usual Rune-level bells and whistles doesn't seem very common to me. 😉

A trio of anarchists, and they really detested those money and time obligations, settling down, and honest work. An arkati exiled sorcerer, a Lunar apostate urban shaman and the charming Eurmali serial killer. Safelster to Kethaela, a short incursion to the Lunar Heartland as Dart warriors and a final stretch through Nochet, Refuge and the River of Cradles.

[icebrand]

28 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Diamond Iron Dwarves had 5000%, I believe?

Hmmm just 2000% afaik? (Enough for 100% crit AND completely breaking the game

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, icebrand said:

Hmmm just 2000% afaik? (Enough for 100% crit AND completely breaking the game

You're right - 2000%+ in each of nine skills.

[icebrand]

2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

You're right - 2000%+ in each of nine skills.

If i were to DM them i would assume it's a typo and they have 200%, which already is stupid unbelievable high anyway 🙂

[Akhôrahil]

12 minutes ago, icebrand said:

If i were to DM them i would assume it's a typo and they have 200%, which already is stupid unbelievable high anyway 🙂

There’s actually a logic to it - you pick up maybe 3% yearly in skills just from your profession in RQ3, so after 700 years…

Edited April 7, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[icebrand]

Just now, Akhôrahil said:

There’s actually a logic to it - you pick up maybe 3% yearly in skills just from your profession in RQ3, so after 700 years…

Yeah, but you can't train above 75%.

So how did they get all their %?

These dwarves are... GOD level? Like, literally, 01-95 to *crit* with 9 -nine- skills? This is insane... 

Why is the GM even giving them checks? I don't give checks for free, and you sure as hell don't get a check to kill a random bestiary mob if you already have 200+. 

[Akhôrahil]

25 minutes ago, icebrand said:

Yeah, but you can't train above 75%.

So how did they get all their %?

I don't believe the "Previous Experience" system is capped at 75? It's also probably not designed for 700 years of previous experience, though...

Anyway, off-topic here... except to the extent that a singe Diamond Iron Dwarf puts a lot of seriously extreme creatures to shame.

[icebrand]

Just now, Akhôrahil said:

I don't believe the "Previous Experience" system is capped at 75? It's also probably not designed for 700 years of previous experience, though...

Anyway, off-topic here... except to the extent that a singe Diamond Iron Dwarf puts a lot of seriously extreme creatures to shame.

Can probably clap cacodemon if they have a nice enchanted shield and decent damage boosting (that's probably casted by a 2000% sorcery diamond munchkin dwarf).

Definitely clapping Cwim if you use 3 dwarves and fight in the praxian plains

[PhilHibbs]

It takes 28.5 successful skill increases to go from 100% to 200%. If you have a 15% modifier (I managed that on a few characters in RQ3, and in RQG +20% isn't too hard to get) then multiply that by about 7 and you get 200 attempts. So if you're ticking your weapon skill every adventure, you need 200 adventures. One a week for four years, there you go.

RQ2 was a little more generous, you got +5% each time so that's 20x7=140 adventures.

[JRE]

The requisite for diamond status is that you crit all your rolls, so over 2000%. Add several hundred POW in enchantments, and probably all attributes enhanced over, unenchanted iron plate over iron chain, so -200% on magic cast on them, which as said above will not disturb much the guy with 2000% magic.

Character creation breaks badly with people with centuries of experience. Another example are Sandy Petersen's Vadeli stats. Gross.

As for skill increases, my game characters had sorcery attribute enhancements at quite high levels, so modifiers in the +30 to +35 for manipulation, a bit lower for agility, except the midget Eurmali. 

[icebrand]

48 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

It takes 28.5 successful skill increases to go from 100% to 200%. If you have a 15% modifier (I managed that on a few characters in RQ3, and in RQG +20% isn't too hard to get) then multiply that by about 7 and you get 200 attempts. So if you're ticking your weapon skill every adventure, you need 200 adventures. One a week for four years, there you go.

RQ2 was a little more generous, you got +5% each time so that's 20x7=140 adventures.

You needed two weeks of downtime to reflect on your deeds to roll checks on rq3, so triple that time!

Also, having an adventure every week (or every 3) seems like... Too much?

In RQG those 4 years become 40!!! Much more reasonable!

[Shiningbrow]

Why would they need to "adventure"? it's standard occupational increase. (although that's 4 v 9).