Using the rules of the game, how are PCs expected to defeat "high-level" opponents?

[icebrand]

9 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Depends on your definitions... if you mean "reflection" as per the rune spell - you're out of luck, because Sunspear doesn't have a resistance roll - it's all direct damage, so can't be reflected (as per the spell).

Stacking Sunspears isn't RAW...

Lol you are correct, can't reflect sunspear.

You can stack them though, casting several spells coordinated at the same SR adds them up to bypass magic defenses, as seen in gringles pawnshop & runemasters if I remember correctly

Ps: this harrek guy seems very Mary Sue... 

 

Edited April 11, 2022 by icebrand

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

What are the weakness of Harreck ?

He will go insanely berserk if his best friend Gunda is killed.

He has an inordinate hatred of the Lunar Empire.

He never let a poor man starve (noted right in his description in WBRM/Dragon Pass).

If he's unhappy he'll head off in a sulk and won't answer pleas for help (like Achilles at the start of the Iliad).

 

[icebrand]

3 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

He will go insanely berserk if his best friend Gunda is killed.

He has an inordinate hatred of the Lunar Empire.

He never let a poor man starve (noted right in his description in WBRM/Dragon Pass).

If he's unhappy he'll head off in a sulk and won't answer pleas for help (like Achilles at the start of the Iliad).

 

Any difference with regular berserker?

Also isn't gunda his sidekick, whos also protected by plot armor and apparently also quite a Mary Sue herself?

Hatred for opposing faction and literally the mildest cult restriction ever?

Oh, and throws temper tantrun when stuff doesn't go his way?

These don't seem much of a weakness if any? 

[jajagappa]

2 minutes ago, icebrand said:

Any difference with regular berserker?

Also isn't gunda his sidekick, whos also protected by plot armor and apparently also quite a Mary Sue herself?

Hatred for opposing faction and literally the mildest cult restriction ever?

Oh, and throws temper tantrun when stuff doesn't go his way?

These don't seem much of a weakness if any? 

Of course they are weaknesses, you just have to figure out how to exploit them.

Harrek heads straight off across the battefield at Pennel Ford because he's enraged by the Manirian betrayal.  Convince him that someone you dislike has betrayed him somehow, and he'll head off after them.

Gunda has her own ship (she's by herself in the picture in the RQG Core book, not with Harrek) and presumably has her own deeds to do - she's not joined at the hip with Harrek.  Convince Harrek that Gunda is in danger...

He's got a long-time hatred for the Lunar Empire.  Convince him that the Lunars are behind the plot...

He's got a soft spot for the poor and forsaken.  Convince him that you are truly down on your luck and if you just had a bite to eat, life would be better...

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, icebrand said:

Lol you are correct, can't reflect sunspear.

You can stack them though, casting several spells coordinated at the same SR adds them up to bypass magic defenses, as seen in gringles pawnshop & runemasters if I remember correctly

Ps: this harrek guy seems very Mary Sue... 

 

The stacking amongst different people was my query there... no more Mindlink spells.

Yep, very Mary Sue.

[Shiningbrow]

32 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Of course they are weaknesses, you just have to figure out how to exploit them.

Harrek heads straight off across the battefield at Pennel Ford because he's enraged by the Manirian betrayal.  Convince him that someone you dislike has betrayed him somehow, and he'll head off after them.

Gunda has her own ship (she's by herself in the picture in the RQG Core book, not with Harrek) and presumably has her own deeds to do - she's not joined at the hip with Harrek.  Convince Harrek that Gunda is in danger...

He's got a long-time hatred for the Lunar Empire.  Convince him that the Lunars are behind the plot...

He's got a soft spot for the poor and forsaken.  Convince him that you are truly down on your luck and if you just had a bite to eat, life would be better...

*Lie* (TM) to Harrek, telling him he killed Gunda while berserk....

 

(You're welcome )

[icebrand]

1 minute ago, Shiningbrow said:

The stacking amongst different people was my query there... no more Mindlink spells.

Yep, very Mary Sue.

Yes, several different people could stack spells if they did it in a coordinated manner, as per RQ2 rules (this was never contradicted)

[Rodney Dangerduck]

6 hours ago, icebrand said:

Lol you are correct, can't reflect sunspear.

You can stack them though, casting several spells coordinated at the same SR adds them up to bypass magic defenses, as seen in gringles pawnshop & runemasters if I remember correctly

 

There is no reason to believe or use the artificial gamey hacks in Runemasters.  

If everybody swings their weapons at the same time, should that also side in bypassing protections?

[PhilHibbs]

6 hours ago, icebrand said:

You can stack them though, casting several spells coordinated at the same SR adds them up to bypass magic defenses, as seen in gringles pawnshop & runemasters if I remember correctly

It's in Runemasters, but I don't trust it. There may be techniques for combining rune magic, Argrath's warlocks are rumoured to know such secrets, but it's more than just casting on the same strike rank. I might accept it if it's in Apple Lane, but I can't find it, and Greg himself warns in the text there that there are unique things in Gringle's Pawnshop that are not normal.

21 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

There is no reason to believe or use the artificial gamey hacks in Runemasters.

Agreed.

21 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

If everybody swings their weapons at the same time, should that also side in bypassing protections?

Hmmm, that's different. There are no justifications for that in any Chaosium publication, which there at least is for simulcasting. Magic isn't the same as hitting. In other words, "I agree with your conclusion but not your logic".

Edited April 11, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[icebrand]

19 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

There is no reason to believe or use the artificial gamey hacks in Runemasters.  

If everybody swings their weapons at the same time, should that also side in bypassing protections?

It's an official rule that has been used in thousands of games during the last 40 years or so, what makes it artificial?

Also my players most definitely coordinated swings to make NPCs unable to parry them all. Some NPCs also do this, with several attacks at the same SR. (This is in RQ3, afaik you can still parry all in 2/G)

18 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

It's in Runemasters, but I don't trust it. 

You are most certainly entitled to discard any and all rules you disagree with, but hear me out...

If i combine my melee prowess with my teammate, it's harder for you to defend. Why can't magic do the same? (Also it's RAW 🤣)

Edited April 12, 2022 by icebrand

[French Desperate WindChild]

34 minutes ago, icebrand said:

It's an official rule that has been used in thousands of games during the last 40 years or so, what makes it artificial?

the topic is about rqg and rqg have some changes and a lot about rune spells.

I have absolutly no idea if these rules are still RAW (well there are not today for sure, but they may be raw in gamemaster guide, or others products)

I agree that could be nice to have some "spells" consolidation (I would prefer a ritual so hours of organization, than just a spell by the way)

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, icebrand said:

It's an official rule that has been used in thousands of games during the last 40 years or so, what makes it artificial?

I've never encountered the rule in use. I didn't even know it existed until last week. It was in a rare RQ2 supplement that I never even saw a physical copy of until this century, and the rule was never carried over into subsequent editions.

1 hour ago, icebrand said:

If i combine my melee prowess with my teammate, it's harder for you to defend. Why can't magic do the same? (Also it's RAW 🤣)

Not any more. It was RAW for 4 years out of those 40, being generous.

Edited April 12, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[icebrand]

10 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I've never encountered the rule in use. I didn't even know it existed until last week. It was in a rare RQ2 supplement that I never even saw a physical copy of until this century, and the rule was never carried over into subsequent editions.

Not any more. It was RAW for 4 years out of those 40, being generous.

The baboons in gringles used it!

7x disruption that was *nasty*

Edited April 12, 2022 by icebrand

[PhilHibbs]

37 minutes ago, icebrand said:

The baboons in gringles used it!

7x disruption that was *nasty*

In my edition (© 1978, 1980, yellow Games Workshop print), only four of the eight baboons have disruption and there's no mention of simultaneous casting. There's no mention in the RQ3 edition either, more of them know it but other than a reference to "their massed Disruptions" there's no special mechanics.

[French Desperate WindChild]

33 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

In my edition (© 1978, 1980, yellow Games Workshop print), only four of the eight baboons have disruption and there's no mention of simultaneous casting. There's no mention in the RQ3 edition either, more of them know it but other than a reference to "their massed Disruptions" there's no special mechanics.

same in the french oriflam version. Their tactic is to attack together one opponent (when they can) , but their is no mention of any specific changes. I always played it as each baboon rolls a d100, then pc try to resist, then 1d3, etc..

[icebrand]

1 minute ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

same in the french oriflam version. Their tactic is to attack together one opponent (when they can) , but their is no mention of any specific changes. I always played it as each baboon rolls a d100, then pc try to resist, then 1d3, etc..

 

38 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

In my edition (© 1978, 1980, yellow Games Workshop print), only four of the eight baboons have disruption and there's no mention of simultaneous casting. There's no mention in the RQ3 edition either, more of them know it but other than a reference to "their massed Disruptions" there's no special mechanics.

 

2 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

same in the french oriflam version. Their tactic is to attack together one opponent (when they can) , but their is no mention of any specific changes. I always played it as each baboon rolls a d100, then pc try to resist, then 1d3, etc..

As demonstrated time and time again, I'm an idiot that can't read. It's just a call target maneuver fml

[Dragon]

32 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

In my edition (© 1978, 1980, yellow Games Workshop print), only four of the eight baboons have disruption and there's no mention of simultaneous casting. There's no mention in the RQ3 edition either, more of them know it but other than a reference to "their massed Disruptions" there's no special mechanics.

I do recall in the original Cradle, the dragonewts were stated to all coordinate their spells, but I thought the mechanics on Disrupt were just that they targeted the same PC and thus were likely to get enough successes on their resistance rolls to do more than a single minor wound to each character, and thus may take a character out of the fight.

Page 40: "All the dragonewts will do the same things at the same time; i.e. if one decides to cast a Disrupt spell, all will cast it simultaneously, and all the nearby dragonewts will cast the spell at a single target player' character (probably the one that has proven the most stubborn). They will always act in conjunction, inhumanly so, as if they shared the same mind, though this is not the case." - So no special mechanics on how the Disrupt worked, just that they had it out for one dude.

Which also means the inhuman conjunction is really hard to accomplish for any non-dragonewt. So, I agree with you PhilHibbs.

[Shiningbrow]

I just looked at Runemasters spell tactics.

The first one says that all spells cast on the same SR effectively stack against countermagic (hence the Sunspear above  - maybe).

Does anyone play that "rule"? I would never allow it  - each spell is separate and distinct, so Countermagic would defeat each separately.

[soltakss]

On 4/11/2022 at 1:00 PM, Shiningbrow said:

Stacking Sunspears isn't RAW...

There are ways around that.

I had a Golden Mirror in our last Gloranthan campaign, which allowed Sunspears to be cast on it and stack, just to get the effect described in King of Sartar.

But, I prefer a high-powered game, so that is the sort of thing that becomes routine.

[soltakss]

7 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

The first one says that all spells cast on the same SR effectively stack against countermagic (hence the Sunspear above  - maybe).

Does anyone play that "rule"? I would never allow it  - each spell is separate and distinct, so Countermagic would defeat each separately.

Yes, we played that.

It was a good tactic for PCs and a devastating one for NPCs.

 

[Shiningbrow]

55 minutes ago, soltakss said:

There are ways around that.

I had a Golden Mirror in our last Gloranthan campaign, which allowed Sunspears to be cast on it and stack, just to get the effect described in King of Sartar.

But, I prefer a high-powered game, so that is the sort of thing that becomes routine.

Oh, I'm quite sure there are ways around everything.

But the point of the thread isn't "how can you make shit up to defeat the biggest baddies on Glorantha?", it's "How can we fight them within the rules as currently written?"

 

[davecake]

On 4/11/2022 at 3:53 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

hero level rules will not be enough to determine how Harreck or Jar-Eel can be defeated

there are the rules,but there are the description of Harreck's skills, powers and abilities too

Absolutely. But we don’t even know what sort of abilities are reasonable for us to assume they have. Sometimes, the rules we have are not sufficient to have sensible play for beings at their level. Eg what does DI mean to entities who have a direct line to gods? 

[soltakss]

22 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Oh, I'm quite sure there are ways around everything.

But the point of the thread isn't "how can you make shit up to defeat the biggest baddies on Glorantha?", it's "How can we fight them within the rules as currently written?"

I use extensions to RQ to make High Level Play easier and more interesting, so all my material needs to take that into account.

Edited April 14, 2022 by soltakss

[soltakss]

On 4/9/2022 at 5:23 PM, soltakss said:

On 4/9/2022 at 4:22 PM, EpicureanDM said:

I don't think that "game balance" is the same thing as "fights against foes that outclass you." Where I think we agree is that if a stat block's published in a game book, the designer should be able to describe the PCs and different tactics they might use to defeat it (hopefully because they've playtested it).

So, would you like me to go through the Personalities from Secrets of Dorastor and list the tactics that I think they would use in combat?

Would that help?

Apologies for waking up the thread, but I have put together a document that covered the Tactics of the Personalities of Secrets of Dorastor.

It contains nearly 70 pages of notes about High Level Personalities and gaming. In it are:

• Expanded Tactics for all the Personalities from Secrets of Dorastor
• Some suggested tactics that can be used when playing RuneQuest Glorantha
• A quick review of the tactics from the excellent RQ2 RuneMasters supplement, which is recommended reading for anyone wanting to know about RuneQuest Glorantha tactics
• The latest Jonstown Compendium Wall of supplements

It is a free download and can be found under Secrets of Dorastor. If you have already purchased this, it should appear in your Library as am update.

Please let me know if anything is missing, or you want things adding.

Edited May 15, 2022 by soltakss

[soltakss]

Quote

Using the rules of the game, how are PCs expected to defeat "high-level" opponents?

I have never cared much for sticking with the rules of the game, or rules as written (RAW).

After all, what are the RAW?

When the Quickstart came out, the RAW were the Quickstart rules.

Then, RAW were the RuneQuest Glorantha rules.

After that, the RAW were the RuneQuest Glorantha rules plus pages of errata and clarifications.

Then the RAW included RuneQuest Glorantha plus errata/clarifications, plus Glorantha Bestiary.

Then RAW included RuneQuest Glorantha plus errata/clarifications, plus Glorantha Bestiary, plus Weapons & Equipment.

Soon RAW will include RuneQuest Glorantha plus errata/clarifications, Glorantha Bestiary, Weapons & Equipment, Gods and Goddesses of Glorantha and HeroQuesting rules.

So, what is RAW?

To me, it is a pretty meaningless concept.

We have always used houserules in all of our campaigns and I will probably continue to do so. This means that all my supplements don't use RAW but use extensions of RuneQuest.