Nochet + ancester worship

[Agentorange]

You know when you think you've read something but you can't remember where ? I'm sure somewhere recently i saw a piece about cult distribution in Nochet. But for the life of me i can't remember if it was here, on the RQ facebook feed or somewhere else. if some one knows please point me in the right direction.

On a broader note. How widespread is ancester worship in Nochet and surrounding areas. Specifically the Right arm islands ? Does it exist, what forms does it take ?

Are there any published sources ( I have the Guide to Glorantha and the Gloranthan sourcebook and will be working my way through them )

[metcalph]

 

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• Caladralanders 5k – main cult Veskarthan (Tendayvora)
• Westerners 2.5k – main cult Aeolian Temple, Rokar Temple (outside of wall)
• Trader Princes 1.5  – main cult Issaries (Deresagar)
• Lunars 1.5k – main cult Seven Mothers (Dearnor or Helamta)
• Handra .5 – main cult Issaries or Invisible God (Helamta)
• Ralios .5 – main cult Arkat (Deresagar)
• Teshnites 1.5 k – main cult Issaries and Calyz (Helamta)
• Kralorelans 1k – main cult Issaries, Rich Twins, Okeria and Serelaloon (Helamta)
• Trolls 3k – main cult Argan Argar (Dearno)
• Pamaltelans 1k – main cults Bendalazu and Seseine (Helamta)
• Vadeli .5k (Helamta)
• Other 1.5

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/to-sort-categorise/nochet-city-of-queens/

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• 15k Ernalda initiates
• 10k Orlanth initiates
• 5.5k Issaries initiates (more than all of Sartar)
• 4.3k Chalana Arroy initiates (more than all of Sartar)
• 4.3k Lhankor Mhy initiates (more than all of Sartar)
• 3.8k Dormal initiates
• 3k Argan Argar initiates
• 2k initiates of Asrelia
• 2k initiates of Gusbran
• 2k initiates of Lanbril
• 2k initiates of Lodril
• 1.6k initiates of the Seven Mothers
• 1.5k initiates of Maran Gor
• 1.3k initiates of Esrola
• 1.3k initiates of Babeester Gor
• 1.3k initiates of Humakt
• And another 10-15k initiates of other cults.

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/nochet-notes/

 

[David Scott]

48 minutes ago, Agentorange said:

Specifically the Right arm islands ? Does it exist, what forms does it take ?

Just assume Daka Fal for the fisher folk and Triolina for the merfolk.

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, Agentorange said:

How widespread is ancester worship in Nochet and surrounding areas.

All the Great Houses honor their ancestors (as well as worshiping other preferred deities), so you'll have shrines to them in most clan halls.  (Keep in mind that the ancestors come to visit annually from the Necropolis!  You want to keep them happy...)

As David noted, it follows Daka Fal, but would typically include an important founder, often a Queen.  E.g. House Norinel traces their lineage back to Queen Norinel.  Clans outside the Great Houses will also honor their founder/ancestors, but might not formalize worship of them.

 

[Agentorange]

6 hours ago, metcalph said:

 

 

 

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

All the Great Houses honor their ancestors (as well as worshiping other preferred deities), so you'll have shrines to them in most clan halls.  (Keep in mind that the ancestors come to visit annually from the Necropolis!  You want to keep them happy...)

As David noted, it follows Daka Fal, but would typically include an important founder, often a Queen.  E.g. House Norinel traces their lineage back to Queen Norinel.  Clans outside the Great Houses will also honor their founder/ancestors, but might not formalize worship of them.

 

And what about out in the islands ?  I envisage the fisher folk or merchant families there as being very self sufficient, rather clannish and secretive bound to each by family ties and obligations and the toughness of their lives and environment. I could see ancester worship playing a large part there...

[Bill the barbarian]

Thanks for the topic @Agentorange. I am really beginning to like the idea and am planning the Godmother movies, parts one to three! Look out Mario Puzo!

 

Oh hell, wrong thread I have reposted this to the correct one...

Set phasers on ignore!

Edited June 18, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[jajagappa]

On 6/18/2022 at 12:36 PM, Agentorange said:

And what about out in the islands ?  I envisage the fisher folk or merchant families there as being very self sufficient, rather clannish and secretive bound to each by family ties and obligations and the toughness of their lives and environment. I could see ancester worship playing a large part there...

I don't see why they wouldn't also worship their ancestors.  But they've got a range of deities to worship: Choralinthor, Diros the Boatman, Pelaskos and Poverri the fishing gods, Golod and Triolina; and they certainly need to propitiate Magasta.

[Agentorange]

14 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I don't see why they wouldn't also worship their ancestors.  But they've got a range of deities to worship: Choralinthor, Diros the Boatman, Pelaskos and Poverri the fishing gods, Golod and Triolina; and they certainly need to propitiate Magasta.

I've assumed acertain level of worship for each of those, i wanted to check that ancester worship or veneration was also a possibility and not a totally  mad idea

[Squaredeal Sten]

Since the dead (or their spirits) return from the necropolis in an annual procession to Nochet, I would expect that a lot of Nochet houses are closer to their ancestors than most foreigners.  But evidently from the counts given Daka Fal is much less popular as individuals' primary cult to Worship  than he might be in Prax or Peloria.  Ernalda or Esrola seems to be a strong #1.  Seems to be a cultural thing.

[Darius West]

Surely Ty Kora Tek is more important as a deity of death than Daka Fal in Esrolia/Nochet?

[Qizilbashwoman]

9 hours ago, Darius West said:

Surely Ty Kora Tek is more important as a deity of death than Daka Fal in Esrolia/Nochet?

death, not ancestors, but 100%. that doesn't mean a Daka Fal cult isn't popular, though, in the situation described you would probably have both cults.

[jajagappa]

21 hours ago, Darius West said:

Surely Ty Kora Tek is more important as a deity of death than Daka Fal in Esrolia/Nochet?

Yes, she rules and tends all the Necropoli.  But that doesn't preclude Daka Fal, who is still the Judge of the Dead and determines whether the ancestor will go to Ty Kora Tek's Caverns of Silence, or elsewhere for their afterlife.  And the Esrolians regularly bring gifts to their ancestors in the necropoli to ensure they are satisfied (and once a year the dead march out of the necropoli and come into the cities and villages to see their descendants).

[FlamingCatOfDeath]

It was mentioned in a previous thread that Daka Fal’s ancestor spirits and the Ty Kora Tek ghosts are made up of different parts of the soul (at least that was my interpretation of what Jeff said) so I wonder how they would interact if both were summoned? Which rune points from the ghosts former life do Ty Kora Tek ghosts have to: associate cults, all Theyalan earth cults, or all Theyalan cults? (Or some other group of cults)

Edited June 21, 2022 by FlamingCatOfDeath

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

and once a year the dead march out of the necropoli and come into the cities and villages to see their descendants).

how do Humakti feel about this?

[SDLeary]

47 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

how do Humakti feel about this?

"OK! Time for some training!" 😆

SDLeary

[Squaredeal Sten]

52 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

how do Humakti feel about this?

That would be a good question for an Esrolian campaign. 

As i understand it this procession of the dead is not their physical corpses, but instead is their spirits manifesting.  But my understanding may be wrong.  All I have to go on is Esrolia, the land of Ten Thousand Goddesses. 

What was Greg Stafford's concept?

Now as for the Humakti, maybe it's time to split hairs; These are not undead in my understanding, though that term seems not to be defined in RQ references.   As I understand it undead = animated corpse.  And they are not ghosts, which are "always tied to a specific site or object" (RQB p.170) and are classified as genius loci!. They seem to just be the dead on annual holiday.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 21, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
spelling and capitalization

[Darius West]

The dynamic between the various deities on the matter of death is interesting.

Humakt is neutral to pretty much everyone, except he seriously hates the worst excesses of Chaos and likes Orlanth.

Daka Fal likes racial ancestor deities like Aldrya, Kyger Litor, and even Thed, but is hostile to nearly all other deities.

Ty Kora Tek is tied to other Earth Pantheon deities, and not much more can be said for certain.

4 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

As I understand it undead = animated corpse.  And they are not ghosts, which are "always tied to a specific site or object" (RQB p.170) and are classified as genius loci!. They seem to just be the dead on annual holiday.

The rule of thumb these days seems to be that Undead have magic points but no POW.

[jajagappa]

19 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

As i understand it this procession of the dead is not their physical corpses, but instead is their spirits manifesting.  But my understanding may be wrong. 

Yes, not physical corpses shambling along.

Humakti have no issue with ghosts (or summoned or bound spirits for that matter) - they are not considered undead.

19 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

They seem to just be the dead on annual holiday.

This is a Day of the Dead festival.  It's honoring the ancestors even if they do come to complain and moan about the lack of filial piety by the latest generation.

If anyone is going to care or complain it would be Ty Kora Tek as the "keeper" or "guardian" of these departed spirits.  But she is the one who releases them to go and ensure that the living are paying proper respect to the dead.  

[jajagappa]

22 hours ago, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

are made up of different parts of the soul (at least that was my interpretation of what Jeff said) so I wonder how they would interact if both were summoned?

I don't think I'd worry about the divisions of the soul in this case.  If you Summon the Ancestor, you get the ancestor with whatever capability they had.

22 hours ago, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

that Daka Fal’s ancestor spirits and the Ty Kora Tek ghosts

I'd look at it more in the way of the traditions.

If you're a Daka Fal/ancestor worshiper, then after you die you follow the path of the dead to Daka Fal's court and are judged.  He directs your spirit/soul to attend him in the city of the dead in the Underworld.  When his shamans summon the ancestors, they come from there.

If you're an Earth cult worshiper, then after you die you follow the path of the dead to Daka Fal's court and are judged.  The earth goddesses attend your judgment and speak on your behalf (for or against you depending on what you did in life).  Some are directed to Ernalda's Gardens, some are sent to Ty Kora Tek's Cavern of Silence, and there may be a few other places that Earth cultists go.  (The Esrolian necropoli are undoubtedly part of the Earth cult Otherworld even if they partially exist in the mundane world.)  When an Earth cultist summons ancestral cult spirits, they come out of the Earth cult Otherworld.

[FlamingCatOfDeath]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I don't think I'd worry about the divisions of the soul in this case.  If you Summon the Ancestor, you get the ancestor with whatever capability they had.

Except that they don’t have their rune points from cults not associated with Daka Fal (so no Orlanth rune points but yes Kiger Liter runepoints). Daka Fal doesn’t have access to the parts of the soul that unaffiliated rune points are in. Jeff made that much very clear.