How much agency will a Wyter have?

[Squaredeal Sten]

A wyter is the spirit that binds a group together (Group can be a clan, tribe, temple, regiment, guild, ship's crew, etc.)

Per RQiG pages 286-287 , the wyter “does not know everything going on” in its area (which can be large if its POW is large), but must be directed to search for things by the priest.  It is linked to, and its magic can be directed by, the priest.  Those who sacrifice MPs to it/him, must take a Passion for the group, and can communicate prayers to the wyter which can pass them on to the priest.

So how much awareness and agency would YOU give a wyter in your game?

Would you say that it doesn't know what is going on unless one of its group members prays to it? 

Or would you say that it does know what is going on in the line of sight of whatever item it is bound into?  (This does raise the question of whether it has senses in the Middle World.)

Or would you say that it only becomes aware of anything its priest directs it to pay attention to in its area, even if that is out of sight of its binding object?  So the priest must essentially make a set of standing orders, or program the wyter?

Would you say it would take independent action against a threat it was aware of (say a fire starting in its temple or guild building), or does it have to wait for the priest's direction?  The only written example I recall is from Chris Gidlow's Citizens of the Lunar Empire, in which a wyter of an insula in Glamour (a water elemental) will put out fires in its building.

What actions would it take to hold the group together?

Is the simple fact of having sacrificed MPs to the wyter (and therefore taken a Passion for the group), all the wyter does to bind the group?  Or does it somehow suppress disagreements and arguments?  If so, how? 

Will the wyter take action on its own, or will it only take action as directed by its priest?

Edited October 10, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
spelling / typing

[g33k]

I would generally go with the "MGF" answer.

Note that some Wyters are bound into living animals -- those can certainly see, and learn about the environs.  Some wyters can presumably see the Material world via other means.  I presume not all of them can.  Again, I look to "MGF" for cues.

A priest might periodically direct the Wyter to "go along every roadway, looking for problems, and come back here to tell tell us what you found" ond "go to Village <X>, study the auras there for a day and a night, and then return here to tell me about them" (hitting every village by turns, over the course of a month or two), and so forth.  Such wyters will be MUCH more informed about the clan lands.

Edited October 10, 2022 by g33k

[Bill the barbarian]

3 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Per RQiG pages 286-287 , the wyter “does not know everything going on” in its area (which can be large if its POW is large), but must be directed to search for things by the priest.  It is linked to, and it magic can be directed by, the priest.  Those who sacrifice MPs to it/him, must take a Passion for the group, and can communicate prayers to the wyter which can pass them on to the priest.

So how much awareness and agency would YOU give a wyter in your game?

Interesting, the priest mentioned above has (according to the rules) less agency than most on the lozenge. (90 percent of their time and income is spoken for). His or her behaviour also has restrictions, and he or she is obligated to fulfill certain roles and duties in society. 

One might assume the Wyter therefore has even less agency. 

Now that is by the rules, but to my way of thinking the Wyter can be a great GM tool. Like setting, characters, plot, and theme. But more so... It can propel a plot forward, and give it theme. 

NOTE: there is so much variety in wyters that all the following thoughts will have to be a little general. 

 

3 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Would you say that it doesn't know what is going on unless one of its group members prays to it? 

 

Hm by the rules above it seems that it would not know. But what if story needs or something obvious the rules could not account for point to it having its own idea?

 

3 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Or would you say that it does know what is going on in the line of sight of whatever item it is bound into?  (This does raise the question of whether it has senses in the Middle World.)

 

I would think it depends on the story's need and MGF. But there would be some kind of boundary depending on its nature and form as well as senses and story/myth behind the wyter.

 

3 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Or would you say that it only becomes aware of anything its priest directs it to pay attention to in its area, even if that is out of sight of its binding object?  So the priest must essentially make a set of standing orders, or program the wyter?

 

Hm, this is a bit difficult, I will pass on this one. 

 

3 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Would you say it would take independent action against a threat it was aware of (say a fire starting in its temple or guild building), or does it have to wait for the priest's direction?  The only written example I recall is from Chris Gidlow's Citizens of the Lunar Empire, in which a wyter of an insula in Glamour (a water elemental) will put out fires in its building.

 

This is probably within the myth/story of the wyter to act in this manner. I wonder what Chris was thinking (myth-wise) as he set that characteristic up. 

 

3 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Is the simple fact of having sacrificed MPs to the wyter (and therefore taken a Passion for the group), all the wyter does to bind the group?  Or does it somehow suppress disagreements and arguments?  If so, how? 

 

I would think there would be much more... The knowledge of the fact that without a wyter there is no community would be known and be a brake on misbehaviours but I would hope there to be more. The myth that tied the wyter to the community would have to  be taken into account as well. 

 

3 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Will the wyter take action on its own, or will it only take action as directed by its priest?

In my games it would be constrained as our many by forces beyond itself. 

For many of your thoughts I would let MGF and the needs of story dictate... and the rules as well, of course. 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[Videopete]

I ran it as, the spirit only knows what it is told to through prayers and what it sees either it's own eyes if embodied or what it perceives when discorporated.  Obviously not many people wish to risk thier wyter by using it as a scout, but it is a option. But remember that it's range is only 2 miles per point of pow iirc.

[Bill the barbarian]

36 minutes ago, Videopete said:

I ran it as, the spirit only knows what it is told to through prayers and what it sees either it's own eyes if embodied or what it perceives when discorporated.  Obviously not many people wish to risk thier wyter by using it as a scout, but it is a option. But remember that it's range is only 2 miles per point of pow iirc.

Hey VP, been awhile. So, you fly by the rules then, eh?

 

ETA 

@Squaredeal Sten, will you be giving us your take on those questions?

Edited October 10, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[David Scott]

10 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

A wyter is the spirit that binds a group together (Group can be a clan, tribe, temple, regiment, guild, ship's crew, etc.)

Per RQiG pages 286-287 , the wyter “does not know everything going on” in its area (which can be large if its POW is large), but must be directed to search for things by the priest.  It is linked to, and its magic can be directed by, the priest.  Those who sacrifice MPs to it/him, must take a Passion for the group, and can communicate prayers to the wyter which can pass them on to the priest.

So how much awareness and agency would YOU give a wyter in your game?

The main wyter in my game is the Wyter of Apple Lane, it has the abilities of

• Kill all insects and blights that would harm apple trees in a single hide for 1 magic point
• Adds its POW as a % to the harvest roll for apples only.

10 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Would you say that it doesn't know what is going on unless one of its group members prays to it?

It's the main apple tree spirit is the area and as such is in touch with all the other apple trees in Apple Lane. It knows who is picking apples and what bug problems there are. Its spirit can travel between the trees, so can only sense things as a discorporate spirit.

10 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Or would you say that it does know what is going on in the line of sight of whatever item it is bound into?  (This does raise the question of whether it has senses in the Middle World.)

No. It has no eyes, but likely feels the wind and sun.

10 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Or would you say that it only becomes aware of anything its priest directs it to pay attention to in its area, even if that is out of sight of its binding object?  So the priest must essentially make a set of standing orders, or program the wyter?

Wyters aren't bound, they reside in their object/item. If the thane of Apple Lane directs the wyter it will go there. It probably roams the apple trees periodically.

10 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Would you say it would take independent action against a threat it was aware of (say a fire starting in its temple or guild building), or does it have to wait for the priest's direction?  The only written example I recall is from Chris Gidlow's Citizens of the Lunar Empire, in which a wyter of an insula in Glamour (a water elemental) will put out fires in its building.

It can take independent action, the Harvest bonus is an example of that - it keeps the trees healthy using its bug zapper ability.

10 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

What actions would it take to hold the group together?

Is the simple fact of having sacrificed MPs to the wyter (and therefore taken a Passion for the group), all the wyter does to bind the group?

As the spirit of the community, it supports the main income of the hamlet. The passion is Loyalty (Apple Lane), so most will do something to support the hamlet in need. 

10 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Or does it somehow suppress disagreements and arguments?  If so, how?

Only if they are at odds to Apple Lane, I'd allow passion vs. passion rolls.

10 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Will the wyter take action on its own, or will it only take action as directed by its priest?

The wyter doesn't force any action, the passion does. 

[PhilHibbs]

9 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Interesting, the priest mentioned above has (according to the rules) less agency than most on the lozenge. (90 percent of their time and income is spoken for). His or her behaviour also has restrictions, and he or she is obligated to fulfill certain roles and duties in society. 

Depends how you define "agency" - yes the priest's time is spoken for in a general sense, but day to day the priest decides how to allocate quite a bit of that time. If a town or village priest decides that it is their cult duty to lead a band of heroes to slay a giant demonic boar that has terrorised the hills for decades, then that's entirely reasonable.

So in the case of the wyter, I'd interpret the question of "within the bounds of serving the community, can the wyter decide how to do that in a day to day sense, or is their every action more or less directed in detail by their priest". There's a lot of scope for variation within that.

[Squaredeal Sten]

17 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

.....

@Squaredeal Sten, will you be giving us your take on those questions?

I have a new wyter to GM.  Who / which I had only thought through in outline.  As always the adventure grows more detail the closer I get to running it.

I do see the reference to special magical rules.  I am grateful to David Scott for his wyter of Apple Lane as an example.

In this case the wyter is not the prize of a heroquest, but instead is the result of a Divine Intervention. So it doesn't have a legendary source.  The wyter is essentially a volunteer cult spirit.

This wyter is the spirit of an innkeeper whose inn was burned by the Lunars in their 1625 retreat.  The adventurers have become the god's answer to his DI, which was primarily for the inn to be saved (or rebuilt.)  After appearances as a ghost, and after Divinations, the ghost is becoming a wyter resident in the old  hearthstone: Wyter of the caravanserai which is being (re)built.  

After the discussion so far I believe I will make the wyter aware of events in the caravanserai so long as members of the MP sacrificing inn staff are aware of them, plus events in the co- located spirit world. He is not a water Elemental nor an insect exterminator, and has no Extinguish spell so will not douse fires.

He has a modest POW, that is what remains after the DI plus one POW sac'd to him so far.  Most of his cult spirit and rune magic will have only rare application to events in or around the caravanserai, because I am only giving him magic suitable for a live non-adventuring NPC.  

It strikes me that a shaman might be persuaded to educate the wyter with more magic.  But that would be a major cost to the business.  A player decision if they think about it.  

As Bill pointed out, the wyter's main support of the community is via the Loyalty which will be taken, IF the Adventurers make that MP sac a requirement when hiring staff.  We will see whether they think to do that.  It  will be a test of how much the players' minds are in Glorantha.  

I have got to think about how much the wyter will communicate with the staff other than the priest / primary owner.  Seems to me he will have to materialize, probably at a cost in MPs. Or he will appear in dreams on site.  

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I have a new wyter to GM.  Who / which I had only thought through in outline.  As always the adventure grows more detail the closer I get to running it.

I do see the reference to special magical rules.  I am grateful to David Scott for his wyter of Apple Lane as an example.

In this case the wyter is not the prize of a heroquest, but instead is the result of a Divine Intervention. So it doesn't have a legendary source.  The wyter is essentially a volunteer cult spirit.

This wyter is the spirit of an innkeeper whose inn was burned by the Lunars in their 1625 retreat.  The adventurers have become the god's answer to his DI, which was primarily for the inn to be saved (or rebuilt.)  After appearances as a ghost, and after Divinations, the ghost is becoming a wyter resident in the old  hearthstone: Wyter of the caravanserai which is being (re)built.  

After the discussion so far I believe I will make the wyter aware of events in the caravanserai so long as members of the MP sacrificing inn staff are aware of them, plus events in the co- located spirit world. He is not a water Elemental nor an insect exterminator, and has no Extinguish spell so will not douse fires.

He has a modest POW, that is what remains after the DI plus one POW sac'd to him so far.  Most of his cult spirit and rune magic will have only rare application to events in or around the caravanserai, because I am only giving him magic suitable for a live non-adventuring NPC.  

It strikes me that a shaman might be persuaded to educate the wyter with more magic.  But that would be a major cost to the business.  A player decision if they think about it.  

As Bill pointed out, the wyter's main support of the community is via the Loyalty which will be taken, IF the Adventurers make that MP sac a requirement when hiring staff.  We will see whether they think to do that.  It  will be a test of how much the players' minds are in Glorantha.  

I have got to think about how much the wyter will communicate with the staff other than the priest / primary owner.  Seems to me he will have to materialize, probably at a cost in MPs. Or he will appear in dreams on site.  

I would presume the Wyter has Rune Spells as per whatever the innkeeper had, in life... Issaries rune-spells?

Or at least, potentially has (at least) those... maybe needing some Heroquesting or Spiritquesting to unlock/recover?

 

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

...  

As Bill pointed out, the wyter's main support of the community is via the Loyalty which will be taken, IF the Adventurers make that MP sac a requirement when hiring staff.  We will see whether they think to do that.   ...  

If the players don't think of it, I would prompt them.

Honestly, I think very poorly (as both player and GM) of the GM'ing style wherein the GM sees an "obvious in-character knowledge/action" and just blankly allows multiple player-characters to do the in-character "obviously-wrong thing" just because the players don't know any better.
 

Edited October 10, 2022 by g33k

[Squaredeal Sten]

3 hours ago, g33k said:

I would presume the Wyter has Rune Spells as per whatever the innkeeper had, in life... Issaries rune-spells?

Or at least, potentially has (at least) those... maybe needing some Heroquesting or Spiritquesting to unlock/recover?

 

If the players don't think of it, I would prompt them.

Honestly, I think very poorly (as both player and GM) of the GM'ing style wherein the GM sees an "obvious in-character knowledge/action" and just blankly allows multiple player-characters to do the in-character "obviously-wrong thing" just because the players don't know any better.
 

Issaries rune spells, yes.  So the wyter can Lock a door.  But note, POW is expended casting them, and for spirit magic, wyters regenerate no MPs.  And has Issaries specialty spirit spells.  But the MPs must be those sacrificed to him, so this wyter is not going to power through situations.

I appreciate your observation on GMing style. 

 I can have the wyter complain in a dream that people are not sac"ing MPs.   Maybe since you suggest it I will have him complain even before the end of construction, that he expected to get some MPs from this gig, and no one is communicating with him.  That should be a decent in game reminder of the group membership mechanics issue.

The hiring decisions and offers are going to be role played. Though not drawn out  Since two of the group have more RQ GMing time than I do, I don't feel that I have to nurse them through the implications of the background.  On the other hand maybe other folks don't make our Issaries role play as much business in his business as I do.  On the third hand after the session (Like Orlanth you can portray me with lots of hands😄)  I gave him my pro forma income statements  for generic caravanserais, rather than making him work it out.  ( I am the one with the MBA, so it was not my first rodeo. )   But that does not include a wyter on the staff.  I think the wyter priest issues may be new to both of us. They certainly are to me, which is why I raised the topic here.

 

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
spelling, clarification

[g33k]

Hmmm.,,

Maybe make the wyter a lot like an Issaries priest?
Complete with the new wyter-to-be bargaining  for various rights & responsibilities in the forthcoming "wyter" role?

[Squaredeal Sten]

10 minutes ago, g33k said:

Hmmm.,,

Maybe make the wyter a lot like an Issaries priest?
Complete with the new wyter-to-be bargaining  for various rights & responsibilities in the forthcoming "wyter" role?

Not al. that much like an issaries priest -  he never made priest in life -  but he will certainly insist on his due, a contract is a contract.  Let's not open ourselves to a Spirit of Raw Greed here.   We are both Issaries together, after all. (Oratory roll - oh that's only for use on NPCs).

He was glad to get the wyter role because the inn is what he DI'd for, you'd say he already achieved his bargaining goal there. 

I think he might be consulted on running the inn.  Certainly on staff recruitment as several prospects used to work for him and others will be members of his clan. 

[Darius West]

On 10/10/2022 at 9:00 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

Will the wyter take action on its own, or will it only take action as directed by its priest?

This is the nub of what you want to know, from what I can tell.  I think the telling thing is that Wyters have no INT.  How can you have agency without INT?  Well, the Wyter may have a sort of animal level of "spirit" instinct, but that would be the limit of it. It will likely defend itself or flee if attacked, for example, and perhaps seek sustenance. There is in Western occultism a nice fit for the Wyter in what is called an Egregore.   Egregores have been compared to the otherwise soulless legal fictional person of a Corporation within US Law (and those of countries that have adopted similar legal instruments).

Edited October 11, 2022 by Darius West

[Martin Dick]

7 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

On the third hand after the session (Like Orlanth you can portray me with lots of hands😄)  I gave him my pro forma income statements  for generic caravanserais, rather than making him work it out.  ( I am the one with the MBA, so it was not my first rodeo. )

That sounds interesting, any chance you might post it here?

[Squaredeal Sten]

2 hours ago, Martin Dick said:

That sounds interesting, any chance you might post it here?

Little chance right now. Because (1) it is long, and (2) right now, subject to the actual role playing and of course further development of the whole adventure, I think it might make a piece of a Jonstown Compendium publication.  

But I will give you a summary: Using mostly numbers from Chaosium material, a caravanserai in a well chosen location with occupancy in good seasons similar to that of a successful modern hotel can make a lot of money.  "Well chosen " is the critical thing though.  

 

 

[Martin Dick]

17 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I think it might make a piece of a Jonstown Compendium publication. 

Cool! I look forward to buying it 😄

[Squaredeal Sten]

6 hours ago, Darius West said:

This is the nub of what you want to know, from what I can tell.  I think the telling thing is that Wyters have no INT.  How can you have agency without INT?  Well, the Wyter may have a sort of animal level of "spirit" instinct, but that would be the limit of it. It will likely defend itself or flee if attacked, for example, and perhaps seek sustenance. There is in Western occultism a nice fit for the Wyter in what is called an Egregore.   Egregores have been compared to the otherwise soulless legal fictional person of a Corporation within US Law (and those of countries that have adopted similar legal instruments).

I am not sure that wyters in general have no INT.  IMG this one does.  The one in Six Seasons does too. And the one in Citizen's of the Lunar Empire. The Bestiary says some spirits have INT, and specifically a ghost does.

Edited October 11, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
Verified references

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 10/10/2022 at 12:00 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

Would you say that it doesn't know what is going on unless one of its group members prays to it? 

depends on the wyter, and the wyter form. Probably a "wyter in beast form" will know everything the beasts (at least her specie) will know. Same for a tree. But probably nothing for a sword, spear, wheel. Note that I consider the form as solid-a true sword- or not -like the not solid shaman's fetch for example - so is your wyter a deer (with CON, can be "killed" by weapon) or a kind of "deer ghost" (with no CON) is not important for the knowledge, in my opinion

 

On 10/10/2022 at 12:00 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

Or would you say that it does know what is going on in the line of sight of whatever item it is bound into?  (This does raise the question of whether it has senses in the Middle World.)

of course, except very rare and weak wyter (corrupted ? cursed ? ) I don't consider any senses in middle world issue. An allied spirit in a tool knows what happens, same for the "solid" wyter and "non solid" wyter

 

On 10/10/2022 at 12:00 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

Or would you say that it only becomes aware of anything its priest directs it to pay attention to in its area, even if that is out of sight of its binding object?  So the priest must essentially make a set of standing orders, or program the wyter?

not only but in addition to the previous options

 

On 10/10/2022 at 12:00 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

Would you say it would take independent action against a threat it was aware of (say a fire starting in its temple or guild building), or does it have to wait for the priest's direction?  The only written example I recall is from Chris Gidlow's Citizens of the Lunar Empire, in which a wyter of an insula in Glamour (a water elemental) will put out fires in its building.

it depends on the wyter character :

- it may do what it is set to, nothing more

- it may do what it is set to AND what it is ordered to (maybe some "coward" or "dumb" wyter would stay in option "nothing more" because they can't do more)

- it may be a free spirit, doing what it can, what it wants, what it doesn't hate / fear, what it enjoys only (imagine a wyter of donandar troop)

 

 

 

On 10/10/2022 at 12:00 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

 

What actions would it take to hold the group together?

Is the simple fact of having sacrificed MPs to the wyter (and therefore taken a Passion for the group), all the wyter does to bind the group?  Or does it somehow suppress disagreements and arguments?  If so, how? 

Will the wyter take action on its own, or will it only take action as directed by its priest?

same as anything else, it depends on the wyter character.maybe it doesn't care about this guy, maybe it needs this guy. Maybe it is able to help the group to stay bound (the wyter in my opinion is the result of the group binding, not the cause), maybe it is not able and will just complains, seeing the end of the group and it own end

[Videopete]

On 10/9/2022 at 11:20 PM, Bill the barbarian said:

Hey VP, been awhile. So, you fly by the rules then, eh?

 

ETA 

@Squaredeal Sten, will you be giving us your take on those questions?

I try to and with a bit of tailoring with the material I've read in the Guide to Glorantha, the Glorantha Source Book, material from the Stafford Library and other sources.  Now I do have some wierd ideas on how heroquesting works but that is a topic for another day.

Now on wyters, they are still scary powerful when released to thier full potential but don't wyters have issues with regaining magic points. Ie have to have worshipers sacrifice for them to regain it.  Plus wyters also generally are try to stay with in the bounds of thier city/community and are more useful for fending off dark spirits and curses that target the area, you know the things referred to as temple magic (something a step above rune magic, which is what the Lunars weaponized with their Colleges of Magic and Argrath took and refined with Sartar Magical Units)

[Steve]

I seem to remember being said a while back that the GM book will have more on wyters.

 

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Steve said:

I seem to remember being said a while back that the GM book will have more on wyters.

Yes, one mention is here in the Q&A: 20. Notes on Wyters from the RQ Campaign book. Others may find the other Q&As on Wyters in that section useful.