Worship in Malkioni lands

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, Godlearner said:

We are beating around the bush here guys. Do full Aeolian sorcerers also achive the status of a Priest? 

How do you expect to be a full sorcerer and priest with those time constraints? Not possible IMG unless you had centuries to build up both.

[Godlearner]

2 minutes ago, Joerg said:

How do you expect to be a full sorcerer and priest with those time constraints? Not possible IMG unless you had centuries to build up both.

Those are my thoughts as well. Game rules wise it is possible, but World building wise no way. It seems that the prohibitions in the system on Malkioni are more or less statement of the Gloranthan realities stated in meta gaming terms.

[jajagappa]

20 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

We are beating around the bush here guys. Do full Aeolian sorcerers also achive the status of a Priest?

I didn't think my response did.  Zzaburi = Priest of the Invisible God.  That yields certain Caste benefits (i.e. they can store and draw upon the worshipper's MPs to cast spells).  They are NOT Rune Priests, they are still sorcerers and cast Sorcery.  What they study is spells typically associated with certain "gods" or emanations - one who has studied the emanation of Air might Summon Clouds or Winds, Separate Water from Air, etc.  But all done using sorcery and drawing upon the pools of MP's they get from the worshippers of the Invisible God.

[radmonger]

 

4 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Zzaburi = Priest of the Invisible God. 

 

My take would be that:

- the Brithini have full Zzaburi wizard-priests. These function more or less according to the normal rules for Rune Priests, but they are doing it all with sorcery. Every bit of the process of teaching  Rune spells is intellectually understood by the wizard-priest, and subject to their will alone. Orthodox Brithini would never use that flexibility, but they could. 

- the Rokari claim the same, but are less good at it. If they are honest, all but a few of the oldest and most powerful wizards have a greatly reduced menu of Rune Magic learnable. The less honest ones use techniques of bargaining or identification to manifest powers they don't fully understand. This can and has led entire congregations, or kingdoms, into Error.

- the Hrestoli Men-of-All are more runelord-wizards than wizard-priests. They rarely learn the sorcerous techniques of spell-teaching. Instead they gain magic by potentially dangerous questing. This works for them at scale because they become competent through rigorous and organised training _before_ they go on the quest.

- the Aeolians (and other full-on heresies) consider Orlanth (or whoever) to be a close enough substitute for the Invisible God that those of Zzaburi caste are allowed, indeed encouraged, to be normal Rune Priests. They are little different from Llankhor Mhy cultists, in that the cult  teaches sorcery, but knowing it is not necessarily required for advancement or status.

 

 

 

 

 

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

We are beating around the bush here guys. Do full Aeolian sorcerers also achive the status of a Priest? 

No.  They are not rune priests. 

[Darius West]

11 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Jeff posted originally in FB in March 2021.  Summary of his post here: 

 

That is interesting and useful.  Thanks Jajagappa.  The notion of the Invisible God/Malkion providing the magic points for certain spells is a very interesting idea.  I suspect the caste Rightness rules are going to need considerable fleshing out.  Will it be handled like Honor is in Land of Ninja I wonder?

[Richard S.]

19 hours ago, radmonger said:

 

 

My take would be that:

- the Brithini have full Zzaburi wizard-priests. These function more or less according to the normal rules for Rune Priests, but they are doing it all with sorcery. Every bit of the process of teaching  Rune spells is intellectually understood by the wizard-priest, and subject to their will alone. Orthodox Brithini would never use that flexibility, but they could. 

- the Rokari claim the same, but are less good at it. If they are honest, all but a few of the oldest and most powerful wizards have a greatly reduced menu of Rune Magic learnable. The less honest ones use techniques of bargaining or identification to manifest powers they don't fully understand. This can and has led entire congregations, or kingdoms, into Error.

- the Hrestoli Men-of-All are more runelord-wizards than wizard-priests. They rarely learn the sorcerous techniques of spell-teaching. Instead they gain magic by potentially dangerous questing. This works for them at scale because they become competent through rigorous and organised training _before_ they go on the quest.

- the Aeolians (and other full-on heresies) consider Orlanth (or whoever) to be a close enough substitute for the Invisible God that those of Zzaburi caste are allowed, indeed encouraged, to be normal Rune Priests. They are little different from Llankhor Mhy cultists, in that the cult  teaches sorcery, but knowing it is not necessarily required for advancement or status.

Zzaburi don't use rune magic though. They're not priests mechanically, they just have a similar role in Malkioni society; the IG doesn't give rune magic, divine intervention, spirit companions, or any of that jazz. It just gave mortals the ability to use sorcery.

[Godlearner]

39 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Zzaburi don't use rune magic though. They're not priests mechanically, they just have a similar role in Malkioni society; the IG doesn't give rune magic, divine intervention, spirit companions, or any of that jazz. It just gave mortals the ability to use sorcery.

Yes, but as we can see from above, for Aeolians, and likely some of the others, initiation is possible which would give them rune magic, divine intervention, spirit companions, and that jazz. That first step, called "sampling" in other games appears to be possible at a relatively minimal cost in terms of time and effort.

[Joerg]

59 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Zzaburi don't use rune magic though. They're not priests mechanically, they just have a similar role in Malkioni society; the IG doesn't give rune magic, divine intervention, spirit companions, or any of that jazz. It just gave mortals the ability to use sorcery.

Rokari zzabur caste members all are sorcerers, and don't use rune magic.

The Aeolian castes are endogamous castes where far from all zzabur caste members qualify for sorcery, at least sorcery at any useful level. These non-sorcerer members born into that caste may still serve in some lesser religious function, possibly wielding rune magic.

[radmonger]

3 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Zzaburi don't use rune magic though.

No, they use 'caste magic'. Which, as I understand it, is mechanically close enough it might as well be identical. Or at least it is closer to rune magic than it is to sorcery. It's described in the book of cults, which has one section for each divine or heroic caste founder.

If you think about it, it's a logical progression. A sorceror starts by enchanting their bodyguard's weapon. But keeping that enchantment at full power for weeks at a time is wasteful. It would be much better if the bodyguard could be taught a simple magical technique to trigger the start of the duration.  

Even with that, it's still wasteful of the sorcerors time if they have to refresh the enchantment every season. So the bodyguard needs to learn a little more; how to renew the enchantment.

You now have something that you might as well treat as a reusable rune spell, and so a sorceror who can fulfill the social riole of a rune priest.

 

 

[metcalph]

16 minutes ago, radmonger said:

No, they use 'caste magic'. Which, as I understand it, is mechanically close enough it might as well be identical. Or at least it is closer to rune magic than it is to sorcery. It's described in the book of cults, which has one section for each divine or heroic caste founder.

The west is not described in the Book of Cults AFAIK.  It's big enough as it is already.

As for Caste Magic being mechanistically close to Rune Magic, another way that it could be implemented is that the non-Zzaburi gets knowledge of a caste-appropriate sorcery spell (such as a warrior getting Boon of Kargan Tor or Mend Flesh) which he then provides the magic points for.  The chance of casting is a caste appropriate lore skill.  Acquisition of caste magic would be done through a Zzaburi (thus keeping them in the loop as the provider of Malkioni magic).

There's also the shamanic gifts/divine gifts route.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 10/17/2022 at 7:57 PM, Jeff said:

And this is a key to understanding the role of the zzaburi - they perform the worship of the Invisible God itself. The Invisible God is abstract, the ultimate reality in the universe. It is Brahman, the Ein Sof, the Unmoved Mover, the One. The Invisible God does not change, but is the cause of all. The Invisible God is unity, undivided, infinite, and the single binding truth behind diversity in the universe.

as I have so few  (and for some, really not) knowledge about your irl example, I m focusing on the glorantha Invisible God 🙂

 

Do the malkioni consider "their" invisible god as a smart, sentient, willing being / entity (what is the appropriate word) or is it something less "aware", something like worshipping the world/universe not as a being but more as where we are. Is the invisible god a "Who" or a "What" ?

what can you expect when your worship the invisible god ? are you strengthening the world or the "master" of the world ?

[JRE]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Do the malkioni consider "their" invisible god as a smart, sentient, willing being / entity (what is the appropriate word) or is it something less "aware", something like worshipping the world/universe not as a being but more as where we are. Is the invisible god a "Who" or a "What" ?

I suspect you are not going to like my perspective. It varies...

It varies depending on the Malkioni tradition, and it depends on the sophistication and education of the worshipper. As in the RW.

Most Zzaburi probably consider the Invisible God inapproachable and not making any actions by itself. But the actions of righteous Malkioni in principle strengthen him and set the universe in the right direction. Hrestoli complicate the things, as Joy of the Heart implies that there is a sliver of the divine in each of us, and that is what allows you to do the right actions even if they go against Malkion laws, because the divine in you (or the divine inspiration, that would be the IG acting through you, but rejecting any divinity in mortals...) knows better. It still has a high risk of getting you excommunicated, and many traditions today reject Hrestol's teachings. It is still the most influential, mainly because he supports individualism and personal responsibility, so the one most likely to change things. Both Arkat and the God Learners were Hrestoli, after all

A typical non-zzaburi worshipper may well conflate Malkion with the Invisible God, which may be even pushed by some zzaburi while others will be horrified by the confusion. So lots of bearded male guys in the sky, which actually has nothing to do theologically with the Invisible God. 

With the humans ease to adscribe personality tp inanimate or natural forces, only the most prepared of the Malkioni will avoid ascribing similar traits to the Invisible God, expecting it to be on your side and against your enemies. Combined with its silence, you have a recipe for a fragmented religion, as actually is the case.

[metcalph]

5 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Do the malkioni consider "their" invisible god as a smart, sentient, willing being / entity (what is the appropriate word) or is it something less "aware", something like worshipping the world/universe not as a being but more as where we are. Is the invisible god a "Who" or a "What" ?

what can you expect when your worship the invisible god ? are you strengthening the world or the "master" of the world ?

Non-Zzaburi: The Invisible God?  I heard the wizards talking about him between themselves once.  I asked who that was and was told to "Please Go Away".

Zzaburi:  We are the thoughts of the Invisible God.  But in our fragmented state, we can only understand its mind as an insect might see ourselves.  Only through the understanding of Rightness and acquisition of Knowledge can we be better know the Invisible God.

[French Desperate WindChild]

15 hours ago, JRE said:

I suspect you are not going to like my perspective. It varies...

you're wrong !

for sure we have not the same perspective about the gods people can see.. but this one... this invisible one I have absolutly no idea, like or dislike.

my only understanding was the invisible god of medieval-like church decades ago. And I disliked so much this one that I m happy to not understand anything about the rqg malkioni, but would prefer to understand what this new one is

 

12 hours ago, metcalph said:

Zzaburi:  We are the thoughts of the Invisible God. 

so you say the zzaburi worship "someone", am I right ? Is is your interesting interpretation or the "canon" ?

[JRE]

I wrote this for the Uninitiated thread, but I think it fits better here, with some additional ideas.

A Sartarite male Orlanthi worships Orlanth, king of the Gods, the awesomest dude ever, and also pays homage to his beautiful wife, Ernalda, his friends and comrades, and children and helpers. A Wind voice models his or her life on Orlanth's, and almost all they do is filled with mythic overtones.

A Rokari Dronali rain man (I am fully improvising here) will ask the cloud master Humath for his help, as set up in the old agreements between men and spirits, as has been done for ever. No worship, no imitating the cloud guy, no modeling his life on him. He is the guy in the village who was chosen by the previous Rain man and confirmed by the Lord and his wizards. It is possible that due to some mythic resonance his wife is the corn mother, as dealing with the land directly is reserved for the kings, but most likely she is not. He still spends his personal power to link with Humath and access his magic, and he leads his fellow villagers at least once a season to keep the old compacts, more frequently if needed. But he still is a good farmer, doing his caste duty to make sure the fields flourish and there is food for all. He still takes part in the weekly worship with the wizards, because they are the ones that keep the world on track and all those agreements that allow you to do your magic, and because the community requires it. I expect that many Rokari have a mechanistic view of God and the world, and their duty is more maintenance than worship, but our rain man gets the impression that God was more hands on in the past, when the kings really married the land and the rebel spirits needed to be clobbered in the head quite often to be kept in line. He still prefers the current days, with the high and mighty far from the affairs of the common folk.

The village wizard talks often with him, both as part of village management, but also to make sure he remains theologically firm, with no hint of idolatry or of undesired spiritual drift. No temptation to blast people with thunder or wind, at least, even if possibly he could.

[Darius West]

On 10/17/2022 at 5:24 PM, metcalph said:

Except the underclass is not pagan.  They support the wizards and receive guidance and magical support.  They acquire Rightness in their actions which allows them to use Caste Magic, a significaqnt distinction between themselves and people who are not Malkioni. 

So what about the ones who worship Saint Humath, or Saint Urox, or Saint Worlath?  The fact is, they are part of a large and separate Theistic system which only has a veneer of Malkionism separating it from the Orlanth Pantheon.  They may support wizards and gain rightness, but look again, and I see a group of people who could overthrow their Malkioni masters and still practice their caste and gain rightness, post revolution.

[metcalph]

2 minutes ago, Darius West said:

So what about the ones who worship Saint Humath, or Saint Urox, or Saint Worlath? 

You are referring to old material about the Aeolians that has since been repudiated.  The Humakti in Western Lands has pretty much the same view of Humakt as his Sartarite counterpart  The same goes for Telmor, Storm Bull, Orlanth etc.  Whether being a Priest or Rune Lord of the said cults is compatible with Rightness , I don't know.  But if they aren't, Malkioni society would be quite diverse enough to accommodate them just like every other gloranthan society.

2 minutes ago, Darius West said:

The fact is, they are part of a large and separate Theistic system which only has a veneer of Malkionism separating it from the Orlanth Pantheon. 

There's no separation and the framework of Malkionism is one that encompasses a whole society and is not a veneer.

2 minutes ago, Darius West said:

They may support wizards and gain rightness, but look again, and I see a group of people who could overthrow their Malkioni masters and still practice their caste and gain rightness, post revolution.

Practicing Rightness means believing that society should be ordered among the four castes.  How is overthrowing the masters compatible with that?

[Darius West]

2 minutes ago, metcalph said:

  Whether being a Priest or Rune Lord of the said cults is compatible with Rightness , I don't know.  

The inference of what has been written above is that yes, you can be a Rune Lord or Rune Priest of a deity, who is considered an Awakened Master, and still get Rightness, assuming you adhere to Caste.

4 minutes ago, metcalph said:

There's no separation and the framework of Malkionism is one that encompasses a whole society and is not a veneer.

When 90% of a population is involved in farming, pastoral, primary industry and artisan activities, and a further 8% is involved in the military, then the 1% Wizards a 1% Nobles are a veneer.  The 2% are also likely the only pure Malkioni in the society that they lead.  This means they need to lead EXTREMELY WELL not to be deposed.  They are a pygmy child riding a Rhino.  Control is an illusion.

9 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Practicing Rightness means believing that society should be ordered among the four castes.  How is overthrowing the masters compatible with that?

Well, for starters, Illuminates cannot be punished by breaking with Rightness, because "who is to say what is right or wrong?".  Illuminates wriggle out of everything. 

The alternative, and more important issue is that you may well lose your rightness from breaking caste and rebelling, but once your bad leaders are gone, you re-establish your caste behavior, and start rebuilding your rightness.  After all, when the peasants revolt, it is actually the Talar who has misruled them who is most likely the one to blame, and who will lose their Rightness.  Most likely when the Castes break down, everyone will start losing their Rightness, whether they follow it or not.  After all, is a Zzaburi who obeys a Talar who is not Right going to be doing the Right thing by following the orders?  Of course not.  Is a warrior who slaughters rebellious peasants following Rightness?  Maybe... Maybe not... 

The way Rightness is described, is takes the form of a social contract that pays magical dividends.  If the contract is broken in small and then larger ways, and then a Caste or a substantial portions thereof breaks away, then the entire system begins to break down, due to the system being intrinsically social and therefore relational, regardless of its logical or legal portions.  Breaches of those relationships create contradictions which destroy Rightness throughout the system.  Every system can be hacked, and a clever rebel can use that to cause the powers that be to make invidious decisions that destroy their Rightness in order to save their power.

[metcalph]

 

15 minutes ago, Darius West said:

When 90% of a population is involved in farming, pastoral, primary industry and artisan activities, and a further 8% is involved in the military, then the 1% Wizards a 1% Nobles are a veneer.  The 2% are also likely the only pure Malkioni in the society that they lead.  This means they need to lead EXTREMELY WELL not to be deposed.  They are a pygmy child riding a Rhino.  Control is an illusion.

Once again you keep harping about the Nobles being "pure malkioni' when I've just been explaining to you they worship the Gods like the other non-Zzaburi.  Their Ancestors are the Big Gods like Orlanth, Magasta and Seshna Liktia.  There is no difference in magic between them and the Horali and the leading Dronars.   All are God worshippers who also practice Rightness.  That's why talk of a Malkioni veneer misunderstands Malkioni society.  The non-Zzaburi don't care about who or what an Invisible God looks like - that's something only the Wizards waste their time with.  All the non-Zzaburi care about is supporting the Wizards in return for their magical support.  The Wizards are part of their society and are likely to cast awesome magical spells for them if asked.  Why would you want to overthrow those guys?  

 

 

 

[Darius West]

6 hours ago, metcalph said:

Once again you keep harping about the Nobles being "pure malkioni' when I've just been explaining to you they worship the Gods like the other non-Zzaburi.  Their Ancestors are the Big Gods like Orlanth, Magasta and Seshna Liktia.  There is no difference in magic between them and the Horali and the leading Dronars.   All are God worshippers who also practice Rightness.  That's why talk of a Malkioni veneer misunderstands Malkioni society.  The non-Zzaburi don't care about who or what an Invisible God looks like - that's something only the Wizards waste their time with.  All the non-Zzaburi care about is supporting the Wizards in return for their magical support.  The Wizards are part of their society and are likely to cast awesome magical spells for them if asked.  Why would you want to overthrow those guys?  

No, this makes no sense to me.  If this was true, then Arkat wouldn't be considered a Traitor by the Malkioni for joining Humakt.  In fact Arkay would likely have worshipped Humakt for most of his life since becoming a Hrestoli.  Similarly why would there be Orlanthi resistance to missionizing as it says on The Middle Sea Empire pp34-35.  And why would the Malkioni have needed to infiltrate other societies to "God Learn" their hero quests if they already practiced them?  Then on page 38 of The Middle Sea Empire we see that the Emanationists take a very dim view of the "pagans and their spirits", and are encouraged to completely destroy them and their belief systems.  This is an odd comment, considering that the Malkioni have always worshipped the same gods according to some people.  Then on page 41 we see that the God Learners were apparently quite happy about destroying the Pagan Worldview.  How can this be, if they are partaking of it, and allegedly always have?  There are too many things that don't fit the facts. 

This looks like a great big retrofit to me, and a clumsy one at best.

This is not to say that I dislike the idea of Rightness or Caste Magic, but the notion that Pagan gods are routinely worshipped in Malkioni areas seems extremely far fetched when Pagan is unquestionably a pejorative term and the whole idea flies in the face of the existing literature and established lore.

For a start, why would the Westerners essentially piggyback onto the Orlanth pantheon, and not have their own specific deities that they control the institutional structures of?  It makes no sense, given they could literally have built them during the God Learner period, and yet we know that the Orlanth Pantheon existed before time, and the Malkioni don't control it, despite the God Learner period.  Why didn't they follow the Solar Pantheon and its extremely orderly and hierarchical social system, which already mirrors Malkionism in many ways (certainly a lot more than Orlanth and his pantheon does)?  Why not the Earth Pantheon?  I could understand that, for the Dronar class at least.  Or why not a completely different Pantheon based on the abstract concepts of Sorcery?

Edited October 21, 2022 by Darius West

[hipsterinspace]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

If this was true, then Arkat wouldn't be considered a Traitor by the Malkioni for joining Humakt.  In fact Arkay would likely have worshipped Humakt for most of his life since becoming a Hrestoli. 

I think the big difference is that Arkat wasn't a Malkioni, he was a Brithini. When you contextualize it with his Hrestolism I think it makes sense, ultimately he was a Hrestoli acting in the service of justice.

As for the bigger question of the pagan gods, they probably contextualize their relationship with the gods differently. Maybe their relationship with the god is more instrumental than it would be for a non-Malkioni, but the big difference seems to be in the understanding of the gods as an emanation of the runes. I'd imagine that for them Humakt isn't a literal divine personage who owns the Death rune, but rather an emanation of the Death rune from primordial Law (Invisible God), which has been mythically personified into the archetype of Humakt.

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

It makes no sense, given they could literally have built them during the God Learner period, and yet we know that the Orlanth Pantheon existed before time, and the Malkioni don't control it, despite the God Learner period. [...] Or why not a completely different Pantheon based on the abstract concepts of Sorcery?

See: Zistor.

Edited October 21, 2022 by hipsterinspace

[Eff]

19 minutes ago, hipsterinspace said:

I think the big difference is that Arkat wasn't a Malkioni, he was a Brithini. When you contextualize it with his Hrestolism I think it makes sense, ultimately he was a Hrestoli acting in the service of justice.

As for the bigger question of the pagan gods, they probably contextualize their relationship with the gods differently. Maybe their relationship with the god is more instrumental than it would be for a non-Malkioni, but the big difference seems to be in the understanding of the gods as an emanation of the runes. I'd imagine that for them Humakt isn't a literal divine personage who owns the Death rune, but rather an emanation of the Death rune from primordial Law (Invisible God), which has been mythically personified into the archetype of Humakt.

See: Zistor.

By the time Arkat joined the Humakt cult, he was already no longer abiding by Brithini restrictions as a Hrestoli man-of-all/knight. So although there's an easy way to avoid the convolutions of trying to retrofit the Arkat backstory into a model of the Malkioni where there's no objection to non-zzaburi doing some theurgy- just say that the Brithini, who are already no longer a factor in modern Glorantha, all practiced appropriate forms of sorcery and rejected even the accommodation of the mortal Malkioni- this way does not explain why Arkat joining the Humakt cult offended his Seshnelan allies so. Certainly we can perform additional corkscrew maneuvers to make this backstory consistent, but I think at that point it's worth reminding ourselves that Arkat's backstory as we now know it was written when devout Hrestoli and Brithini alike refused to engage in theistic worship, and that if that component has been removed entirely as a Malkioni aspect, we probably need to invent a new backstory for Arkat which takes the new version into account. 

Of course, at the same time, even in the older model, there was clearly a great deal of "paganism" in the early Hrestoli societies, because otherwise the Seshna Likita and Serpent Kings materials make little to no sense, and Arkat's worship of Humakt presumably goes well beyond the "tolerable" warrior societies in some fashion. So there are difficulties or gaps whichever version we use, or to put it another way, no model of Malkioni society, old or new, is quite capable of offering a consistent picture of what we know about Malkioni societies. The new model is one where the only Malkioni that matter in description and background materials are frequently zzaburi, because they have the remnants of monotheism, the old model is one where it's exceptionally difficult to understand how the tension between "pagan" and "pious" can remain consistently alive, rather than the one or the other being extinguished- after all, the power structures of society favor "pious" Seshnelans and Loskalmi and Safelstrans, and yet "paganism" remains viable across centuries, and also clearly, "pious" Malkioni have to have some way to avoid reliance on earth goddesses for agriculture or else "pagans" would hold the balance of the power, with the food supply in their near-exclusive control. 

[Godlearner]

26 minutes ago, Eff said:

By the time Arkat joined the Humakt cult, he was already no longer abiding by Brithini restrictions as a Hrestoli man-of-all/knight. So although there's an easy way to avoid the convolutions of trying to retrofit the Arkat backstory into a model of the Malkioni where there's no objection to non-zzaburi doing some theurgy- just say that the Brithini, who are already no longer a factor in modern Glorantha, all practiced appropriate forms of sorcery and rejected even the accommodation of the mortal Malkioni- this way does not explain why Arkat joining the Humakt cult offended his Seshnelan allies so.

Lets not forget that Arkat was Illuminated before he left Brithos. It is possible that Malkioni saw him in a particular way, but then realized he was some thing else. A fallen hero is a powerful image.

[metcalph]

16 hours ago, Darius West said:

No, this makes no sense to me.  If this was true, then Arkat wouldn't be considered a Traitor by the Malkioni for joining Humakt.  In fact Arkay would likely have worshipped Humakt for most of his life since becoming a Hrestoli. 

That's correct.  There's multiple possible answers for that.  One is that Arkat was not a Horali but a Man-of-All worshipping the Invisible God.  In any event, you are using an little known event that occurred about at least thousand years ago to determine what Malkioni society must be like now.  But the Malkioni today don't really have any clue about how Arkat broke faith or why it was received so badly.  The Seshnelans would probably say that is what comes of being a Man-of-All and that is why you should trust them, unlike for example a Horali Humakti.  The Arkati would say he was practicing Common Sense.  The Loskalmi don't really care about Arkat.

 

16 hours ago, Darius West said:

Similarly why would there be Orlanthi resistance to missionizing as it says on The Middle Sea Empire pp34-35. 

Because the Middle Sea Empire (remember that it's obsolesent in terminology about missionizing) wasn't about converting the natives, but acquiring the right to rule their lands and the ability to investigate their mythology from a position of power.  Over time, places like Teshnos and Fonrit would have become Malkioni countries if the God Learners hadn't destroyed themselves first.  

16 hours ago, Darius West said:

And why would the Malkioni have needed to infiltrate other societies to "God Learn" their hero quests if they already practiced them? 

They didn't practice them.  They practiced similar religions but weren't satisfied with what they had.

 

16 hours ago, Darius West said:

Then on page 38 of The Middle Sea Empire we see that the Emanationists take a very dim view of the "pagans and their spirits", and are encouraged to completely destroy them and their belief systems.  This is an odd comment, considering that the Malkioni have always worshipped the same gods according to some people. 

The Emanationists probably believed the Monomyth gave them the true forms of the Gods that allowing the subjects of their Empire to continue to worship indigenous versions was an error.  They weren't trying to stop their subjects from worshipping the Gods, they were trying to ensure they worshipped the correct Gods.

 

16 hours ago, Darius West said:

Then on page 41 we see that the God Learners were apparently quite happy about destroying the Pagan Worldview.  How can this be, if they are partaking of it, and allegedly always have?  There are too many things that don't fit the facts. 

Well as I've pointed out to you, the MSE has a lot of language that it no longer relevant.  RuneQuest has gone back to the earlier version of the Malkioni as presented in Cults of Prax, Cults of Terror and  Wyrms Footprints.  For example

Quote

One of the early acts of the God
Learners was to bring together many peoples who had,
despite Waertagi monopolies, discovered various aspect
of ships and boatbuilding and sailing. These made the
cult of Diros which was soon subjugated within the cult
of Wachaza when the troubles with the Waertagi started.
The Waertagi naturally wished to keep their monopoly
and tried to discourage the Jrusteli with destruction
and curses. The Jrusteli fought back using the skills of
their newly adopted war god, Wachaza.

Glorantha Sourcebook p86

That's pretty hard to reconcile with a supposedly montheistic culture, no?

 

16 hours ago, Darius West said:

This is not to say that I dislike the idea of Rightness or Caste Magic, but the notion that Pagan gods are routinely worshipped in Malkioni areas seems extremely far fetched when Pagan is unquestionably a pejorative term and the whole idea flies in the face of the existing literature and established lore.

Except that pagan is only mentioned once in the Guide (p127) which is legacy text from RQ3 about an event in the Dawn Ages.  It is not used when describing the Malkioni relationships with the Barbarians and not even in the context of the Seshnelan Warrior Societies (who are practically Hsunchen in origin).

16 hours ago, Darius West said:

For a start, why would the Westerners essentially piggyback onto the Orlanth pantheon, and not have their own specific deities that they control the institutional structures of? 

Because the Westerners basically acquired the Orlanthi pantheon back in the Storm Age after Zzabur expelled them.  But unlike other gloranthans, the Seshnegi were always trying to make their gods bigger and better.  As far back as Cults of Prax, the Seshnegi 

Quote

Other distant lands
[such as Seshneg in the Dawn Ages] developed this form of
worship until they made their ancestors surpass the mighty gods
in power, or else reduced the immortals into mere superhuman
heroes or multi-national ancestors.

Cults of Prax p14

It wasn't enough that the Nobility remained true to their ancestors.  They also wanted their ancestors to be the best Gods ever and that was something their wizards were all to happy to help out with.  That lead to tragedy in the Imperial Age and a hands off from the Wizards in the Modern Age.  (And if you are wondering about the specific mention of the Dawn Age, back then Seshnela in the Dawn Age was the only stuff that Greg had written about - Imperial and Modern Seshnela  was something inchoate at the time of writing I understand.

 

16 hours ago, Darius West said:

Why didn't they follow the Solar Pantheon and its extremely orderly and hierarchical social system, which already mirrors Malkionism in many ways (certainly a lot more than Orlanth and his pantheon does)? 

The people who worship the Solar Pantheon are in Peloria and associated with Gbaji.

Quote

In the contemporary
maps made by sea-goers, all the areas beyond Dragon Pass are
labelled “Krjalki,” a word meaning “Chaos monster” or “demon.”

The map=makers never visited there, but heard only stories of
Lightbringers, who hated the distant Pelorians.

RuneQuest Companion p28

Good luck in trying to convince people to become Solars.

 

16 hours ago, Darius West said:

Why not the Earth Pantheon? 

And put the women in charge?  Are you nuts?!?

 

16 hours ago, Darius West said:

Or why not a completely different Pantheon based on the abstract concepts of Sorcery?

Because Sorcery can only be practiced by literate magicians (ie the 1%).  Trying to keep the non-Zzaburi from worshipping the Gods is an exercise in futility that makes them irrelevant as the Brithini.   The Malkioni who worship the Gods are the strongest Malkioni within Time.  Therefore the Invisible God is on their side.