Baron Wulfraed Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 On 10/20/2022 at 9:05 PM, svensson said: Where I live is one of the more expensive regions of the country. A two-bedroom apartment rents for $1200 /mo plus utilities. And home builders don't built CHEAP! I was paying that for a one-bedroom apartment (680 sq. ft.) in the low-cost area of the city... OVER A DECADE AGO! I once looked into prices for newer apartments -- and found they wanted closer to $2000 for 1BR (600 sq.ft.!). For what I paid in rent over 30 years, I should have owned the apartment! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Absentia Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 7 minutes ago, Baron Wulfraed said: For what I paid in rent over 30 years, I should have owned the apartment! Which is why land "lordship" is a fundamentally criminal enterprise. !i! 1 ...developer of White Rabbit Green Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill the barbarian Posted October 22, 2022 Author Share Posted October 22, 2022 16 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said: Which is why land "lordship" is a fundamentally criminal enterprise. Oh sure, you tell New York landlord Donald Trump that! I ain't going near him! ... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svensson Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 24 minutes ago, Baron Wulfraed said: CHEAP! I was paying that for a one-bedroom apartment (680 sq. ft.) in the low-cost area of the city... OVER A DECADE AGO! I once looked into prices for newer apartments -- and found they wanted closer to $2000 for 1BR (600 sq.ft.!). For what I paid in rent over 30 years, I should have owned the apartment! So, I was talking to the familial Minister of Finance [my wife] and I was way off on my rent estimate. Like 5 years off. According to zillow, the median rent in my area is [averaging bedrooms, etc.] is $1900, cheaper than Seattle up North by about 10%. The Puget Sound region is the 6th most expensive region in the US, WAY below NY/LA prices, but one of the more expensive [4th] as a percentage of median income. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svensson Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 1 minute ago, Bill the barbarian said: 18 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said: Which is why land "lordship" is a fundamentally criminal enterprise. !i! Well, I don't entirely disagree with the idea of property ownership. It used to be one of the ways that someone could solidify their place in the Middle Class, after all. The idea was that you bought a house, outgrew it, and then bought another. You then rented your old house for costs +10 or 15% and that lowered your payments on you new house. That's all well and good so far as it went. But builders quit building the small houses. Now they build McMansions and Garage-Mahals that cost $500K and nobody who doesn't work for Microsoft can afford one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill the barbarian Posted October 22, 2022 Author Share Posted October 22, 2022 (edited) 17 minutes ago, svensson said: Well, I don't entirely disagree with the idea of property ownership. It used to be one of the ways that someone could solidify their place in the Middle Class, after all. I must say I disagree with it entirely as it exists today. But then I prefer socialism. Of course, not only is it legal up here (and has been for close to a century) we have a party dedicated to democratic socialism that is steps away from government... Now as I created this as a humorous forum I would love to find a joke to insert here but when I think I have zero housing rights in capitalism run amok Alberta, I can only cry when I think of the amount of money I get charged for rent, that I will never get anything back should I leave here and I can be kicked out in three months without cause or recourse. Oh, and this is after having paid 170,000 canuck bucks over 17 years! Edited October 22, 2022 by Bill the barbarian 1 1 ... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDLeary Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 (edited) All I have to say on the Rent front is... San Francisco Bay Area. 🙂 SDLeary Edited October 22, 2022 by SDLeary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svensson Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 1 hour ago, SDLeary said: All I have to say on the Rent front is... San Francisco Bay Area. 🙂 SDLeary And a bunch of techies moved up here and jacked up the housing market. 'Gentrification' and all that.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali the Helering Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 I am always puzzled as to why people don't expect a capitalist system to have capitalist outcomes. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agentorange Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 On 10/20/2022 at 6:56 PM, Ali the Helering said: Yeah, despite the fact that some Tories thought her a Little Gem, eventually they saw reason, told her she couldn't Romaine in post and sent her off on a Rocket.😁 Apparently she didn't even have time to Pak her bags...though I understand she does have a celery for life....... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svensson Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 On 10/22/2022 at 12:27 AM, Ali the Helering said: I am always puzzled as to why people don't expect a capitalist system to have capitalist outcomes. Truth. Like I said, I don't mind the idea of owning property. What I dislike is the manipulation of the market so as to jerk over most of the people living in that market. I grant you 'capitalism' and all that, but you'll find similar manipulations of housing market or systems in any government type in the world. Sure, a worker in Beijing is going to have an apartment, but they never have the right to own a house or improve their living conditions beyond that which the State prescribes. And the material quality of the buildings they live in is lousy by and large. Electrical outages, plumbing and sewage problems, even concrete that isn't allowed to set sufficiently and begins to fall apart after only a few years of occupancy, and that's not even getting into the aesthetics of a building that looks like a warehouse. And no one to appeal to in order to get direct action on the problems discovered. 'Socialism' isn't as 'glorious' as Comrade Ulyanov would have anyone believe, ya know? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill the barbarian Posted October 23, 2022 Author Share Posted October 23, 2022 (edited) 16 minutes ago, svensson said: And no one to appeal to in order to get direct action on the problems discovered. 'Socialism' isn't as 'glorious' as Comrade Ulyanov would have anyone believe, ya know? China is not socialist. I have no idea what to call it, but socialist it is not. Do they still call themselves communist? Edited October 23, 2022 by Bill the barbarian 2 ... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill the barbarian Posted October 23, 2022 Author Share Posted October 23, 2022 (edited) 30 minutes ago, svensson said: Truth. Like I said, I don't mind the idea of owning property. What I dislike is the manipulation of the market so as to jerk over most of the people living in that market. I grant you 'capitalism' and all that, but you'll find similar manipulations of housing market or systems in any government type in the world. Sure, a worker in Beijing is going to have an apartment, but they never have the right to own a house or improve their living conditions beyond that which the State prescribes. And the material quality of the buildings they live in is lousy by and large. Electrical outages, plumbing and sewage problems, even concrete that isn't allowed to set sufficiently and begins to fall apart after only a few years of occupancy, and that's not even getting into the aesthetics of a building that looks like a warehouse. And no one to appeal to in order to get direct action on the problems discovered. 'Socialism' isn't as 'glorious' as Comrade Ulyanov would have anyone believe, ya know? Sir, I did not create this topic to be an argument about what socialism or what capitalism is or is not, I created it as a way to have a bit of fun at the expense of a head of lettuce as I recover from a devastating year of horrible health. Can you please create a forum on the evils and benefits of socialism or capitalism elsewhere in this fine tavern. We are now totally off topic and it is not looking pretty. Let's keep this are light and civil, SVP! Edited October 23, 2022 by Bill the barbarian 1 ... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilHibbs Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 On 10/21/2022 at 10:28 PM, svensson said: Has his Executive Privilege been quashed by a court? I ask because I honestly don't know. We've seen POTUS' dodge Congressional supoenas before, after all. Only the president has executive privilege. He may claim to be the president for all we know, nothing should surprise us. As Morgan Freeman said, if his head splits open and an alien spaceship flies out, we should be expecting it. On 10/21/2022 at 10:28 PM, svensson said: Don't get me wrong here... Cheeto Benito absolutely needs to answer for the used kitty litter that was his tenure, but I'm not at all certain he'll actually end up answering for 6 JAN like he ought to. I'm expecting the phrase "the fifth" to occur a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g33k Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 On 10/22/2022 at 12:27 AM, Ali the Helering said: I am always puzzled as to why people don't expect a capitalist system to have capitalist outcomes. I think you're mistaking the sentiment. We understand the downside outcomes. We expected the downside outcomes. We just don't see any good options; so we're complaining. ( I think the sentiment in favor of "good options" is increasing... Basically, closing a bunch of loopholes, and returning to tax structures from years back, where the upper margins weren't capped in the mid-30%'shttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_tax#/media/File:TopTaxIncidence_PikettySaez2007.png ) C'es ne pas un .sig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali the Helering Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 58 minutes ago, g33k said: We just don't see any good options; so we're complaining. Don't get mad, get organised! Join the IWW for heaven's sake... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svensson Posted October 24, 2022 Share Posted October 24, 2022 12 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said: China is not socialist. I have no idea what to call it, but socialist it is not. Do they still call themselves communist? Marxist, Leninist, Stalinist, Maoist... it doesn't matter. It's still the same murderous dictator. The point is that communism/socialism is as failed a system of government as fascism or anarchism is. This doesn't mean that I'm 100% in love with capitalism either. To paraphrase the great Robert Heinlein, 'Capitalism is poor economic system, but it's better than any other system anyone has tried.' [Heinlein's actual quote is from 'Stranger in a Strange Land': "Democracy is a poor system of government at best; the only thing that can honestly be said in its favor is that it is eight times as good as any other method the human race has ever tried.”] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill the barbarian Posted October 24, 2022 Author Share Posted October 24, 2022 (edited) 36 minutes ago, svensson said: Marxist, Leninist, Stalinist, Maoist... it doesn't matter. It's still the same murderous dictator. The point is that communism/socialism is as failed a system of government as fascism or anarchism is. As long as you never call them... the murderers socialist again... I will be happy... now again I ask this conversation be moved to another thread... It has no place here and worse... I do not like to be made kin of murderers It irks me a lot! Edited October 24, 2022 by Bill the barbarian 1 ... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svensson Posted October 24, 2022 Share Posted October 24, 2022 4 hours ago, Ali the Helering said: Don't get mad, get organised! Join the IWW for heaven's sake... Well, if you can find a union that isn't mobbed up or bought out by political interests, that'd be peachy. But the fact remains that one reason why most people have lost faith in unions is that they became part of the same hypocrisy that generates the robber barons. I don't mean to sound as if I have all the answers. I absolutely do not. I'm not a genius, and I don't play one on TV, ya know? A lot of people who are way smarter than I am have devoted their entire careers in trying to sort out a really just and equitable economic system and have failed miserably at it. But I am an observer of how people feel in Western society. People don't trust unions. That trust has to be re-earned. With the post-COVID anti-work movement maybe that trust is returning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill the barbarian Posted October 24, 2022 Author Share Posted October 24, 2022 (edited) If this continues I will be asking the management to shut this thread down... this is incredibly insulting to me as a socialist and a trade unionist! And a fan of the IWW... Edited October 24, 2022 by Bill the barbarian 2 ... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svensson Posted October 24, 2022 Share Posted October 24, 2022 @Bill the barbarian Well, Bill, you're going to have to find different heroes then, because Marx was just as full of shit as Henry Ford or Adolph Hitler was. Every single 'socialist' government granted absolute power has turned into murderous dictatorship. Unless that socialism has a VERY strong democratic system that has the power to oust socialist system if it fails, of course. But then, if it has a strong democratic component, it's not really socialism, is it? The fact is that top-down central control economies simply don't work. Period. Everybody who's tried has failed miserably. And, as you say, even China has given up on it. Not that that's improved the lives of the Chinese any... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svensson Posted October 24, 2022 Share Posted October 24, 2022 And for the record, I'm NOT being 'insulting' by point out flaws in your arguments. We're friends enough that we've called each other out in more than one discussion. I'm not saying I have all the answers, nor am I making this personal. You're a socialist, I'm not. That's all fine. Your vote counts for exactly as much as mine does and that's also fine. You have every single right to your opinion, and I wouldn't dream of denying that to you. But I have the same right to disagree with it and explain why. And we can respect each other's opinion and remain friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trifletraxor Posted October 24, 2022 Share Posted October 24, 2022 Locked upon request from the threadstarter. 2 2 Ef plest master, this mighty fine grub! 116/420. High Priest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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