Dwarven weapon skills

[Barak Shathur]

So I’m about to play an Iron Dwarf. Reading about Mostali in the Bestiary I see their preferred weapon is Warhammer, a weak weapon that, given most dwarves won’t even have damage bonus due to their small size, doesn’t benefit them whatsoever. Why would an Elder Race that is so used to war, and has so many enemies, choose to handicap themselves in this way? Can someone explain?

[HreshtIronBorne]

I dunno about warhammers. Probably some mythical reasoning. The sample in the bestiary has a battle axe and a 1 handed hammer. PC generation for Iron Dwarf adventurers has melee weapon +40%, so you can pick whatever is most advantageous. Also, ALL their equipment is IRON. Which is both immensely expensive and incredibly fearsome. Double penetrating damage versus trolls and elves. Great defenses and nigh unbreakable gear. 

 

In our Glorantha Dwarfs use all sorcery, so the Iron Dwarf can take the crazy expensive Stabilize Iron or whatever that costs POW to cast or just take Boon of Kargan Tor and other awesome War Magic buffs. Even a warhammer without any DB or Special Effect bonus does decent damage with a 2 or 3d6 Boon of Kargan Tor, much less something better suited like a battle axe, broadsword, or what have you. You could give them Enhance CON or STR based on how Enhance INT works maybe, if you thought they were weak?

 

In our campaigns a squad of iron dwarf warriors on the horizon is terrifying because the players know they have guns and know how to use them. Lol. Then there are the powder kegs and all sorts of other hardware. Dwarfs are scary because they are smart, not brutes. Those are the trolls. Except the mistresses, they are terrifying AF. 

Edited October 27, 2022 by HreshtIronBorne

[g33k]

Cultural.

Same way farmers adapted farming implements into pole-arms (or nunchucks, or what-have you) and poachers became bowmen:  a smithying people will adapt blacksmith tools.

Personally, I allow Dwarves any "head on short haft" weapon like axes, hammers, picks, etc.

[Barak Shathur]

53 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

I dunno about warhammers. Probably some mythical reasoning. The sample in the bestiary has a battle axe and a 1 handed hammer. PC generation for Iron Dwarf adventurers has melee weapon +40%, so you can pick whatever is most advantageous. Also, ALL their equipment is IRON. Which is both immensely expensive and incredibly fearsome. Double penetrating damage versus trolls and elves. Great defenses and nigh unbreakable gear. 

 

In our Glorantha Dwarfs use all sorcery, so the Iron Dwarf can take the crazy expensive Stabilize Iron or whatever that costs POW to cast or just take Boon of Kargan Tor and other awesome War Magic buffs. Even a warhammer without any DB or Special Effect bonus does decent damage with a 2 or 3d6 Boon of Kargan Tor, much less something better suited like a battle axe, broadsword, or what have you. You could give them Enhance CON or STR based on how Enhance INT works maybe, if you thought they were weak?

 

In our campaigns a squad of iron dwarf warriors on the horizon is terrifying because the players know they have guns and know how to use them. Lol. Then there are the powder kegs and all sorts of other hardware. Dwarfs are scary because they are smart, not brutes. Those are the trolls. Except the mistresses, they are terrifying AF. 

A big part of the problem is that crushing weapons are so weak visavi slashing and impaling weapons, due to the Special damage rules. Crushing weapons only make sense to use if you have at least +1d6 DB, and barely so even at that. At +2d6 DB they become fearsome. So why would a dwarf, given their stats and the extant weapon rules, choose a weapon that is in practice an inferior choice? According to the mythology, the first weapons they learned to make were axes and swords, so shouldn't those be their preferred weapons of choice? And if you want to give them hammers due to their smithying habits, a great hammer is a much better choice. 

Of course, if I was GM I might houserule something to balance this out. For example, I might nerf the slash special effect, since slashing weapons tend to have the highest damage dice anyway, either using the bleeding effect of BRP, or Drakar & Demoner's maximum damage for special successes. Slash seems overpowered compared to the other special effects in RQG. It would also make impaling weapons a bit more attractive, then being the only ones that do double damage. Or I might give warhammers Impale, as in RQ3, since a warhammer "often has a spike at the impact point rather than a flat head, and is used as a pick instead of a hammer. A nasty weapon, ideal for punching through armor". Under RQG rules, they are not ideal for anything.

But currently I am not the GM, so I'm stuck with what the rules say.

 

[Akhôrahil]

One of the things about RQ weapons is that there’s no particular armor-piercing quality, which means that weapons that were used mostly for that purpose (like maces and war hammers) suck.

House-rule such a property, upgrade the damage, or give them axes instead (which should be a much more reasonable weapon against both trolls and elves anyway).

Edited October 27, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Scotty]

1 hour ago, Barak Shathur said:

So I’m about to play an Iron Dwarf. Reading about Mostali in the Bestiary I see their preferred weapon is Warhammer, a weak weapon that, given most dwarves won’t even have damage bonus due to their small size, doesn’t benefit them whatsoever. Why would an Elder Race that is so used to war, and has so many enemies, choose to handicap themselves in this way? Can someone explain?

I'm not sure where you're referencing this from, but:

Quote

Dwarf fighters are usually pictured with axes and hammers because they are loath to even show their best weaponry to outsiders who will covet them and even try to imitate them. However, their expertise extends far beyond the simple weapons which humans can craft.

RQ Bestiary, Dwarf Weapons, page 59

and 

Quote

It doesn't actually specify, what the weapon is:

Skills: Medium Shield +40%, Melee Weapon +40%, Missile Weapon +40%, Secondary Weapon +25%.

Equipment: Melee weapon, missile weapon, medium shield,

RQ Bestiary, Creating a Dwarf Adventurer, Iron Dwarf, page 58

Only Copper Dwarfs have War Hammers.

The Iron Dwarf illustrated on page 54 has an axe to fool stupid humans, on its back it has a bowling ball autoloader with three balls. But for outdoor work only has a pistol.

[Godlearner]

In previous rules, I believe warhammers could crush or impale. So, have them impale as by default.

[Barak Shathur]

51 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I'm not sure where you're referencing this from, but:

Bestiary, p. 57 has dwarves using 1H hammer at 80%, and Battle axe at 60%. If it was the other way, I might understand it. Keep your smith's hammer as a backup, why not?

51 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Only Copper Dwarfs have War Hammers.

Well yes, when creating a PC I can do whatever I want. What I'm talking about is the standard NPC dwarf, which seems nerfed for no good reason.

 

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

One of the things about RQ weapons is that there’s no particular armor-piercing quality, which means that weapons that were used mostly for that purpose (like maces and war hammers) suck.

RQ3 was the pinnacle of BRP weapon design. Crushing weapons halved the AP of flexible armour, while warhammers could Impale. This has never been taken up in subsequent editions, forever dooming blunt weapons to not being very useful unless you're a troll.

 

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

House-rule such a property, upgrade the damage, or give them axes instead (which should be a much more reasonable weapon against both trolls and elves anyway).

I always wind up houseruling way too much. I shouldn't have to do that. I really wish we could have an official correction or something. Best would be to nerf slash special and bring back balance and usefulness to all weapons. Second best, add Impale to warhammers. Best of all, do both.

Anyway, I’m not the GM. And my current GM doesn’t house rule. 

Edited October 27, 2022 by Barak Shathur

[Scotty]

25 minutes ago, Barak Shathur said:

Well yes, when creating a PC I can do whatever I want. What I'm talking about is the standard NPC dwarf, which seems nerfed for no good reason.

Apologies, I thought you were creating an adventurer:

3 hours ago, Barak Shathur said:

So I’m about to play an Iron Dwarf.

I didn't realise you were referring to the sample Iron Dwarf. These are just standard Iron Dwarfs (same as RQ2) that you would find in the surface world, as with all NPCs just tailor them to suit your group needs. For the full experience just give them their proper weapons: Muskets (2D10) and Pistols (2d6+2), both impale.

[Barak Shathur]

37 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Apologies, I thought you were creating an adventurer:

I didn't realise you were referring to the sample Iron Dwarf. These are just standard Iron Dwarfs (same as RQ2) that you would find in the surface world, as with all NPCs just tailor them to suit your group needs. For the full experience just give them their proper weapons: Muskets (2D10) and Pistols (2d6+2), both impale.

Sorry if I was unclear. In the process of making a dwarf, I discovered that standard issue dwarves are nerfed. 

I thought gunpowder companies were a rarity, only used under special circumstances. And having muskets doesn’t obviate the need to be well equipped for close combat. 

[HreshtIronBorne]

Just because the 1 sample dwarf shows 1 handed hammer and it isn't a particularly good weapon for Iron dwarfes definitely doesn't mean EVERY iron dwarf uses hammer as main weapon. Just give them whatever. It really isn't  that big a deal. 

[Akhôrahil]

5 hours ago, Barak Shathur said:

RQ3 was the pinnacle of BRP weapon design.

I think Pendragon, personally.

[Barak Shathur]

27 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Just because the 1 sample dwarf shows 1 handed hammer and it isn't a particularly good weapon for Iron dwarfes definitely doesn't mean EVERY iron dwarf uses hammer as main weapon. Just give them whatever. It really isn't  that big a deal. 

Most GMs I've come across hate houseruling or changing anything. They go strictly by the book. 

[Barak Shathur]

14 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I think Pendragon, personally.

This I haven't played since about 1985 and I don't remember much about it, so I admit that's possible. What are the upsides in your opinion?  

[Akhôrahil]

10 minutes ago, Barak Shathur said:

This I haven't played since about 1985 and I don't remember much about it, so I admit that's possible. What are the upsides in your opinion?  

No need for often fairly arbitrary weapon tables - weapon types merely have properties, with the damage based on Str + Siz. And plus, shields are fantastic, where they are kinda crap in RQ (two-handed weapons are the good picks in RQ, Greatsword and Halberd in particular).

[Mark Mohrfield]

9 hours ago, Barak Shathur said:

RQ3 was the pinnacle of BRP weapon design. Crushing weapons halved the AP of flexible armour,   

Did they? I don’t remember this. Do you have a citation?

[Barak Shathur]

1 hour ago, Mark Mohrfield said:

Did they? I don’t remember this. Do you have a citation?

It's in the Errata.

"When a flail, mace, or maul is used against soft armor, the value of the armor
protection is halved (round fractions up). Soft armor overlapped with hard armor
counts as hard armor."

[davecake]

Note that pistols and muskets aren’t the standard Mostali missile weapons, the average Mostali would still use a crossbow, though they do have the neat repeating crossbows. The slow reloading of gunpowder weapons probably means that pistols are only for Iron dwarves closing to melee. 

It’s said that the iron weapons were in the first age civil wars used by the Nidan Decamony, who invented black powder, used it as a weapon against the Dragon Pass era Opendandist heretics, which would include the Dwarf of Dwarf Run. Obviously they dwarves of Dragon Pass and Greatway have access to gunpowder now, but it’s quite possible that dwarves outside Nida still have restricted supplies, and/or still have some trained in crossbows. 
This may even be part of the reason why the Cannon Cult are human not dwarven. 

Edited October 28, 2022 by davecake

[davecake]

5 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

And plus, shields are fantastic, where they are kinda crap in RQ

Shields are weirdly bad in individual melee in RQG - they actually have a mild disadvantage (you can’t parry with a shield in the round you attack with it, which isn’t true for other weapons), and don’t seem to have any particular advantages, and amalgamating attack and parry means many other weapons are just as good at parrying. On the other hand, passive use of shields to block missile attacks is great, allowing advancing under fire, and shield walls are great. One of the net effects is small shields are virtually useless.
 

13 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

In our Glorantha Dwarfs use all sorcery, so the Iron Dwarf can take the crazy expensive Stabilize Iron or whatever that costs POW to cast or just take Boon of Kargan Tor and other awesome War Magic buffs.

The iron armour Iron Mostali wear is mostly unenchanted iron. I don’t know whether the Mostali have some means of casting sorcery that does not have the negative modifiers from unenchanted iron (their spells that specifically target iron maybe do?  ) or they just go all out to massively boost their cast chance with ritual etc. But it might be difficult to cast too much in combat - their boon of Karagan Tor etc are likely long duration casts made out of combat. On the upside, they are very difficult to cast magic against. 

I’ve figured the most common weapons for Iron Mostali are axes - perfect tool for chopping vegetation such as elves, war trees, etc. and work fine against trolls too.
 

But warhammers and such are possible - and I think it’s quite possible that some Iron Mostali even have Enhance STR cast to give them a damage bonus. I think their may be reasons to use warhammers and other blunt weapons when fighting other dwarves, which will have been quite a lot of the action many Iron Mostali have seen, considering the various dwarven civil wars. 

Dwarves did occasionally have need to fight predating the invention of Iron. And what weapons did they use? They don’t appear to use bronze, and most of the other metals don’t hold a good edge, so they’d be using blunt weapons. I’m sure they have at least the same skill in creating lead weapons as trolls, for example -and may still use lead when creating war hammers etc. Their continued use of blunt weapons may descend from such ancient practices, and they may have some magic or other techniques to boost them somehow. 

Their ancient edged weapons, such as for fighting Aldryami before the creation of Iron, were probably of sharp rock such as obsidian - and interestingly, one Mostali spell for this is known, because they taught it to the Caladra and Aurelian cult, who have it as an associated cult spell, and it’s fairly potent, the equivalent of Bladesharp 8! It’s also interesting that the Mostali seem to have abandoned this entirely (or virtually so), perhaps sharing it with humans only because it is regarded as superseded, antique, technology, quite unreliable (and such weapons do break often). 
Some specialised units of Iron Mostali probably learn to fight in tight formation with pole arms as secondary weapons, and probably fight in shield walls etc and use other socialised tactics - the infamous pike and musket regiment is an example. And they also have siege equipment (including, but not only, cannons and other artillery) and such things as war jolanti (some of huge size) and alchemical and magical equipment. But such units are unlikely to be seen much on the surface outside of actual warfare, most small squads of Iron Mostali encountered on the surface will be more flexible general melee and missile skirmish troops. 

[Barak Shathur]

This turned into quite a wonderful discussion. 
 

I think the main problem is that stats for dwarves (and other things, like the above mentioned warhammer) were carried over from earlier versions, without the mechanics that were essential to make them function as intended.

[davecake]

1 hour ago, Barak Shathur said:

I think the main problem is that stats for dwarves (and other things, like the above mentioned warhammer) were carried over from earlier versions, without the mechanics that were essential to make them function as intended.

This is absolutely a factor. Some of the rules changes in RQG have quite far reaching consequences that are not obvious as they interact with other parts of the rules. 

[JRE]

This will not apply to player characters as they would be outcasts or single scouts on a mission, but IMG Iron dwarves have lots of long duration sorceries on them, some cast by them but most cast by silver dwarves before they leave their tunnels, intended to last for a little more than the expected mission. The more veteran, therefore valuable, the more magic will be used on them. I am sure there is a manual and magic procedure depending on the mission, number of dwarves, and environment that is obsolete but still rigorously adhered (including limiting them to one canteen each in Prax because water is plentiful there, according to the plan), or supplying limited iron quarrels because there are no trolls in the Zola Fel valley...

Comparing 3d6 from a season long Boon of Kargan Tor and the effect of a +4 STR from the same intensity of Enhance STR, strength just is not worth it (though many veterans will be enhanced as well), And with 3d6 bonus damage, the intrinsic weapon damage is not so important anymore. Of course casting that requires INT 20 and Enhance INT 5, so right for a silver dwarf but quite excessive for a simpler iron dwarf, specially as I would not allow him the Enhance INT spell (but he could get it from the same Silver dwarf, if it is listed in the procedure... A typical iron dwarf could manage 1d6 for a few days, or 2d6 for an hour or two, always assuming enough MPs, as depending on techniques they may be doubled or even quadrupled.

I use lots of nilmergs with the dwarves, both to separate them from the typical fantasy dwarves, and so highlight the narrow abilities of most dwarves. So my typical NPC iron dwarf will have a bullet or quarrel retrieval nilmerg, a time controller (Six watches since the last nutrition ingestion! Time to open a can! 18 watches since the last rest period, time to rest!), a blood removal weapon maintenance expert and a keep armor shiny specialist. That also explains why (with a bunch of gorgers following up if dwarves lose) there are no precious iron remnants after a dwarven skirmish. They just bring it all back. 

[Barak Shathur]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

This is absolutely a factor. Some of the rules changes in RQG have quite far reaching consequences that are not obvious as they interact with other parts of the rules. 

Well, it’s been a few years. Just for fun, what are some things that work less well and could do with a bit of tweaking? 
 

I have a couple of candidates. Change Slash special to something more modest (keep Impale as it is, the risk of getting your weapon stuck balances it). Change the Passion effect to +/-10 with simple success or failure. 20 is just so extreme. Give shields some kind of defensive bonus, such as add half shield AP to the locations covered. And finally my bête noir of BRP games, reduce DB somewhat. +/-1d4 is too big a jump from 0, while large animals like bisons doing +3d6 is just insanely excessive. +2d6 is enough, when human limbs have only 4-5 hp. 

[Barak Shathur]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

Better in fact, as the "response damage" on parrying can really add up against natural weapons.

Something must be done. This is a travesty.

5 hours ago, davecake said:

In our Glorantha Dwarfs use all sorcery, so the Iron Dwarf can take the crazy expensive Stabilize Iron or whatever that costs POW to cast

Regarding this, have I got this right that you actually sacrifice POW to cast dwarven sorcery? In which case it's something to only use in exceptional circumstances? In the Bestiary it says "expend" rather than "sacrifice", but I take it this means the same thing?

Edited October 28, 2022 by Barak Shathur

[metcalph]

8 minutes ago, Barak Shathur said:

Regarding this, have I got this right that you actually sacrifice POW to cast dwarven sorcery? In which case it's something to only use in exceptional circumstances? In the Bestiary it says "expend" rather than "sacrifice", but I take it this means the same thing?

It's intentional.  Dwarves don't like magic, viewing the material world of Glorantha as the highest form of reality.  The spirit world, the middle air, the world of the Gods being increasingly magical are viewed as inferior realms worthy only of condemnation.  Dwarves prefer to use gunpowder, iron and alchemy than mess about with Boon of Kargan Tor or Bladesharp.  Even the magic they have to use is taken as a sign that the Gods War is not over yet.  

That doesn't preclude dwarves from using sorcery in your campaign or even dwarves using magic in canonical glorantha.  Many dwarves have taken to experimenting with magic (individualists! *spit*) and so could have any assortment of spells.  I'm pretty sure if Rockheart Veinseeker (Griffin Mountain) were rewritten for RQG, the writers would keep the fancy rune spells that he has and explain if off as a minor variation of Openhandism (using non-dwarvish magics to worship Mostal)  that has so far escaped Nida's attention.