Humakti Honor

[Brootse]

On 1/14/2023 at 9:14 AM, HreshtIronBorne said:

Does running at a Lunar patrol and shouting, "I am Blargh, son of Flargh of Clan Flan, I am here to kill you for being Lunar scum!" Count as an ambush, or is Honour obliged by being Not Secret in your murdering of perceived enemies?

In the games I've ran that wouldn't count as a real ambush. There's a wonderful pic in the King of Dragon Pass that I have used for "Humakti ambushes" where Humaktis stand on a road with drawn weapons and unhidden cult symbols declaring that this is an attack.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/Qu7XkE5.png[/img]

[Brootse]

On 1/28/2023 at 5:03 PM, soltakss said:

Both could be Humakti. Don't forget that Humakti can kill Humakti in battle.

Of course they can. The honour is gained by carrying out a rightful execution, according to the law. Humakt is a god of Death and lawful execution is a good use for a Humakti.

 

The first situation is where the opponent has been dragged out of bed, so has no armour or equipment, but just has a random weapon thrown to them.

The second situation is where the opponent is fully armed and armoured, with equipment.

They are two different situations.

 

Romans and Medieval and Early Modern Europeans thought that executioners were ritually impure. In some places the taboo was so strong that if you sat on a chair that was meant for the executioner, you could lose your own honour and essentially become an outlaw. IMG Humaktis think that executions and executioners are dishonourable. Most if not all of the people Theyalans would condemn to be killed would be oathbreakers of some sort, so it would be a job for Babesteer Gorites.

[Akhôrahil]

On 1/14/2023 at 12:43 AM, Erick Eckberg said:

This got me thinking....    Humakt, and his cult, embody Death and the Death Rune.  Just as Orlanth embodies Air & Movement and Ernalda Earth & Harmony.  Many other deities/cults share these runes, but these deities own them.  How is Death necessarily honorable?  Death is uncaring of such human inventions.  Why would the Humakt cult put such a huge emphasis on honor?  To stymie death?  (your foe surrenders and drops his weapon, honor bound you must spare him, robbing death).

I think that’s the point - Death Itself is uncaring of these things, and many weilders of Death are dishonorable. It’s just that Humakt isn’t, and Death ended up primarily with him. Presumably, things could have gone differently.

[Akhôrahil]

On 1/14/2023 at 7:45 AM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Maybe I'm a softie, but I definitely think that honor should apply to animals.  One should not ambush and kill and entire group / family of deer or wolves.  Kill what you need for food, or to scare away the predator, but don't slaughter them all.

Humakt seems to only care about the deaths of people (anyone with personhood). What you suggest here is typical for hunter cults, though, which also tend to pack the Death Rune.

[Darius West]

On 1/14/2023 at 10:43 AM, Erick Eckberg said:

Another player said, "Whoa!  A Humakti would never act so dishonorably!"   He read an excerpt concerning honor in general, as well as one aimed particularly at the Humakt cult.  

Not really.  Captured bandits only count as "unarmed foes" and thus attacking them is only a -5% Honor penalty.  The easier way to deal with them is to simply ignore their cries of surrender and offers of ransom during combat, as you are not obliged to accept them in that situation, and no penalty applies as they are armed.  As to attacking from ambush, no penalty applies as your enemies are armed, they just haven't drawn their weapons, and whose fault is that but that of their own incompetence?  If a Humakti has a geas against ambushing, that is a different matter again.

On 1/14/2023 at 10:43 AM, Erick Eckberg said:

Humakt?  Yeah, there's the attachment to the Truth Rune, but truth doesn't necessarily equate to honor.  Death Rune = Cold, Merciless, Cruel, Relentless.  Honorable?   I don't think so.  Death knows nothing of honor.  Visit a battlefield and see.         

There are many gods of war apart from Humakt, but Humakti do hold themselves to a warrior's code of conduct.  What is true of war and the battlefield in your example is true of Zorak Zoran, and many other warrior deities, but Humakti derive a measure of their power by being honorable.  Honor is a passion, and it inspires them in battle, while limiting their conduct and encouraging them to avoid the cruel excesses of warfare.  The Humakti thus hold themselves to be morally and spiritually superior to their enemies, and thus deserving of victory.  Humakt is Death serving the world, not wanton mayhem.

Edited August 19, 2023 by Darius West

[Brootse]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Not really.  Captured bandits only count as "unarmed foes" and thus attacking them is only a -5% Honor penalty.  The easier way to deal with them is to simply ignore their cries of surrender and offers of ransom during combat, as you are not obliged to accept them in that situation, and no penalty applies as they are armed.

If the bandits drop their weapons, they can't be attacked honorably. A humakti can't just act like he doesn't see their surrender and keep on killing them. Well, at least without losing 5% Honour for each attack.

[Joerg]

6 hours ago, Brootse said:

If the bandits drop their weapons, they can't be attacked honorably. A humakti can't just act like he doesn't see their surrender and keep on killing them. Well, at least without losing 5% Honour for each attack.

They cannot be slain honorably. They may still be subdued using non-lethal force, and rather than accepting their ransom they may be sold into slavery or indenture.

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 1/13/2023 at 5:43 PM, Erick Eckberg said:

The players were tasked, by their patron, to capture or kill a group of bandits harrying the lands.  Upon dispatching the lone sentry and bursting into the ruins they used as a hideout, the Humakti moved to slay the scoundrels.      

Nothing in that description says that  the bandits surrendered.   Have the bandits committed dishonorable outrages, deserving of final punishment?  We are not told.

IMHO if the bandits surrender  the Humakti "should" (with respect to honor)  capture them, perhaps sell them into slavery, perhaps turn them over to his employer's justice. (Which may be rather final.) But until they do surrender, all that is hypothetical and someone is going to die.  By default following the wishes of his patron is honorable, unless some specific situation contradicts that. 

[Akhôrahil]

7 hours ago, Brootse said:

If the bandits drop their weapons, they can't be attacked honorably.

Toss them a knife. Anyone catches it on instinct, you have a few seconds to kill them before they realize what just happened.

[French Desperate WindChild]

8 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

  Have the bandits committed dishonorable outrages, deserving of final punishment?  We are not told.

that is not (in my opinion / understanding of Honnor in glorantha)  because your opponant is dishonorable that  you are allowed to do dishonorable things.

Maybe they did things that thr humakti wants to kill them abd accepts the price of the loss of honor:

a conflict between different passions: revenge and honor (good material for tragedy, even more if only a part of the bandits were guilty but all are killed !). Something that Bab's maiden have decided honor is less a value than a complication

 

8 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Toss them a knife. Anyone catches it on instinct, you have a few seconds to kill them before they realize what just happened.

Lying to oneself !

Some would say that, but if they meet any divine judge (Daka Fal, Humakt, etc...) during heroquest or their last travel, would face their own breach of honor and truth

 

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Some would say that, but if they meet any divine judge (Daka Fal, Humakt, etc...) during heroquest or their last travel, would face their own breach of honor and truth

Humakt isn’t remotely about even fights, though. Cutting down poorly armed peasants (while claiming it’s dishonorable for them to gang up on you!) is perfectly alright. It’s not your fault that guy you tossed the knife to wasn’t good enough with it!

[Runeblogger]

How much Honor do you think Naimless from “The Travels of Biturian Varosh” lost after the duel in Tourney’s Altar? 🤨🤔🤔🤔

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

Cutting down poorly armed peasants (while claiming it’s dishonorable for them to gang up on you!) is perfectly alright.

i totally agree about the very "relativism" of any kind of honor (in glorantha or elsewhere)

but the difference, imo, from the dragon pass honor perspecive I understand, is the poorly armed is (seen as) armed, when the surrender, hands in the air, even with knives on them, or why not axes, etc but not "accessible", is (seen as) not armed.

Note that my point is not based on my values but on what I understand about their (dragon pass) values

for me , if you are a trained/professional/heroic fighter there is no honor , there is even dishonor -if it means something-, to kill someone who is not able to face you, when you are able to just stun your opponent without risk for anyone on your side. But that's not the humakti version I think 😛

 

Edited August 20, 2023 by French Desperate WindChild

[Brootse]

12 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Toss them a knife. Anyone catches it on instinct, you have a few seconds to kill them before they realize what just happened.

No. You can strangle people with belt, but not everyone who wears a belt is armed. A knife is foremost a tool, and almost everyone in Glorantha carries one. Only if a someone threatens or stabs you with a knife it becomes a weapon.

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Humakt isn’t remotely about even fights, though. Cutting down poorly armed peasants (while claiming it’s dishonorable for them to gang up on you!) is perfectly alright. It’s not your fault that guy you tossed the knife to wasn’t good enough with it!

Humakti code isn't about fair fights, that is true. If poorly armed peasants gang up on a Humakti he is allowed to kill them all. But if they drop their weapons and surrender, he can't attack them anymore without losing honour.

36 minutes ago, Runeblogger said:

How much Honor do you think Naimless from “The Travels of Biturian Varosh” lost after the duel in Tourney’s Altar? 🤨🤔🤔🤔

None. Magic is allowed in Humakti duels:

3. Any Rune or Battle magic is allowed except Sever Spirit. The use of allied spirits is certainly allowed.

[Squaredeal Sten]

The new Lightbringers book [pages 103-104] gives us the Humakt honor code. Or rather codes as the wording changes by level in the cult, and many things in the previous discussion are not in it.  It seems to me to be directed to interactions with other Humakti.

At the lay member level,

"Every lay member must take the Honor Passion and
uphold the Code of Humakt. This code of honor requires
that a member must:
. Always fight other members fairly.
. Honor the fallen.
. Maintain strict truth and confidence with one another.  "

 

At the initiate level.

All Humakti must uphold the Code of Humakt. This
means that a member must:
. Always fight other Humakti fairly.
. Honor the fallen.
. Maintain strict truth and confidence with one another.

[italics are my emphasis to point out the difference in wording.]

So it looks to me as if the qualifier "other members" or "other Humakti" is important.  You are to be fair to them,  Non-Humakti are a different case.  What that implies may vary according to your taste, and any geases are still in effect, but in the absence of a geas I don't see how this honor code prevents you from using an advantage in combat against the bandits referred to in the original post, unless they are Humakti.

Similarly, truth and confidence with "one another".  As I read it that is with other Humakti,

That doesn't mean that I'm saying a Humakti with a high Truth rune can lie all the time.  But the god's retribution is not going to fall on you for misleading the enemy by means of feints and distractions.  The third rule of that code would seem more directed against making false, incomplete, or misleading reports.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 20, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

So it looks to me as if the qualifier "other members" or "other Humakti" is important.  You are to be fair to them,  Non-Humakti are a different case.  What that implies may vary according to your taste, and any geases are still in effect, but in the absence of a geas I don't see how this honor code prevents you from using an advantage in combat against the bandits referred to in the original post, unless they are Humakti.

Similarly, truth and confidence with "one another".  As I read it that is with other Humakti,

I think this is the difference between breaking cult rules and "merely" taking a hit to your honor. The occasional -5% is likely going to be alright.

If we compare with Pendragon, you're only ejected from Knighthood at Honor 0. Some unknightly behaviour now and then is something you can manage (and may often be a good idea if the alternative is likely death).

Edited August 20, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Darius West]

On 8/20/2023 at 1:13 AM, Brootse said:

If the bandits drop their weapons, they can't be attacked honorably. A humakti can't just act like he doesn't see their surrender and keep on killing them. Well, at least without losing 5% Honour for each attack.

I debate the -5% per attack, the honor table says -5% per unarmed foe.

[Brootse]

3 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I debate the -5% per attack, the honor table says -5% per unarmed foe.

The quote is "Attacking an unarmed foe", so it could be read either way. If it happened in my table, I'd probably rule it to be per target attacked, regardless how many blows were struck. It could also be read so that you can attack your unarmed friends without penalty.

[Darius West]

On 8/21/2023 at 11:07 PM, Brootse said:

The quote is "Attacking an unarmed foe", so it could be read either way. If it happened in my table, I'd probably rule it to be per target attacked, regardless how many blows were struck. It could also be read so that you can attack your unarmed friends without penalty.

So essentially an opponent who is skilled in unarmed fighting like a Kralori martial artist cannot be fought by Humakti.  That's a problem imo.

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

So essentially an opponent who is skilled in unarmed fighting like a Kralori martial artist cannot be fought by Humakti.  That's a problem imo.

Hmmm yes a challenge indeed. The Humakti could reasonably conclude that they are skilled enough that their fists count as weapons. And whilst there's no specific prohibition against parrying someone's fist attacks with your sword, again you're into splitting hairs. "Yes, I swung my sword up, and my sword connected with his arm and severed it, but that was a parry, not an attack". Gloranthans don't know about the details of the RuneQuest melee round mechanism.

[Malin]

Honestly, that's a fascinating situation. I can see a staunch Humakti refusing to duel a Kralori martial artist simply because they are not armed.

[Akhôrahil]

25 minutes ago, Malin said:

Honestly, that's a fascinating situation. I can see a staunch Humakti refusing to duel a Kralori martial artist simply because they are not armed.

"His hands are deadly weapons!"

[Joerg]

Do all Kralori martial artists practice unarmed combat? The famous female in the conflict with the criminal organisation is a sword user.

[Darius West]

On 8/25/2023 at 9:16 PM, Akhôrahil said:

"His hands are deadly weapons!"

Are they though?  Even using the Martial Arts skill, they don't do much damage really, and their SR is always about as bad as it can possibly be.  I have yet to meet a MA master IRL who wouldn't immediately admit that an armed person will always have the advantage over an unarmed person.  We need to face facts... To be a successful unarmed fighter, capable of standing against an armed enemy, a person needs to be a mystic of extraordinary skills and accomplishment.

[Akhôrahil]

6 minutes ago, Darius West said:

 I have yet to meet a MA master IRL who wouldn't immediately admit that an armed person will always have the advantage over an unarmed person.  

Sure, but Kralori Martial Arts are surely magical, something real-world practitioners don't have the advantage of? Anything in Wuxia movies should be within reach in Glorantha.