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Thoughts on running a Scorpion Man Horde


Squaredeal Sten

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I have GM’d and also played against  vanilla scorpion men as depicted in the Bestiary pages 104-105, and found them suitable and dangerous opponents for new characters:  If you run 1 scorp vs. 1 fairly new Adventurer the scorps have the edge of a second (sting) attack plus poison, and are really dangerous.

But now GMing for essentially a rune level party, a squad of these – or a squad drawn from the RQ2 supplement  Creatures of Chaos 1 – dies pretty easily.  (In the latter case, it doesn’t help the poor Chaotics  that their RQ2 supplement weapons skills are below the example that the Bestiary shows, so review and boost those when running RQiG).

So tell me whether the following makes sense to you and is consistent with the background:

I took another look at Cults of Terror pages 33-37 with a view to making a scorpion man horde, or at least a platoon, and here is the scheme I came up with:

‘1) The scorpion men will organize according to the Bagog ‘s pyramidal  hierarchy, with about three to  five lay members (sword fodder) per initiate and four or five initiates per Rune Lord.  Thus a platoon of about 17-31.

2) The lay scorpion men will have skills of 35-50%, know Mobility or Heal 3, and that’s about it .  Only their roughly 35% chance of a Chaotic feature makes them really dangerous. 

3) The initiates will have at least one weapon skill above 50%, know Mobility & Healing 3,Ironhand, Protection 2.  Occasionally another spirit magic spell or two, assuming they have devoured some hapless human(s).  No Rune magic (though that may change when the Bagog entry in Cults of Glorantha come out next year.).   But they will average a point or two greater POW due to natural selection in the devouring game.

 

4) The Bagog Rune Lords will be truly dangerous:

First, they are likely to have more spirit magic:  Darkwall, Healing up to 6, and Protection 4.

Second, they can have Rune spells .  And although most of the Bagog magic is unimpressive, the big prize spell is Carapace, a 2 pointer which combined with Protection can make the Rune lord near impenetrable.  Your scorpion Rune Lords should never leave home without it because it even protects their tails against being cut off in parried sting attempts. 

The next best Rune spell, Venom Boosting, does make the sting a little more deadly but does not increase its penetrating power, so he is still relying on 2D6 to penetrate the human’s armor and magic -  in other words a low probability event against  iron armor.

Summoning a small darkness elemental,  Shield, and Multispell are all useful.    

Third, they will have weapons skills of 90%(+), making them competitive with high level humans even though the scorp is still likely to only have a club.

 

Fourth they will have an allied spirit to cast healing as a first priority and then other magic.  This spirit’s MPs will be especially valuable as the RL himself has POW constrained by the low species maximum.

 

5) Of course the Bagog Rune Lords may also have looted human weapons.  These will only have a slight damage advantage over a large club, but will be more durable.  And who knows, your scorp may have picked up something horrendous like a Great Ax, though he should have a much lower skill than with his club due to only gaining the first 25% of the devoured former owner’s skill.

6) Finally the Rune Lords should have an even higher chance of a chaotic feature and better POW, just because of natural selection.

7) It seems to me that the scorpion man horde should operate in platoons:

Against an enemy in open order, the platoon will: Deploy with a skirmish line of 12 lay level slingers supervised and healed by three initiates,  and behind them a hard knot of the Rune lord, two initiates, and about eight lay members.   With their chitinous skin they should win or break even in most slinging fights.   If enemy go down early the skirmishers seize them for later devouring.  Meanwhile the hard knot picks out a leading enemy and rushes him using Mobility, may try for knockbacks, and will outnumber him heavily if he doesn’t have close left and right hand supporters.

Against an enemy in close order / shield wall they should be much less effective because the scorpion men’s chaotic inclination will make it unlikely that they drill themselves, so will not be in phalanx themselves (and they are unlikely to have shields anyway).  But against this close order enemy they should extend their line and try to overlap the human phalanx.  If there are enough scorpion men a Cannae should result as the humans’ flanks collapse and their center moves forward.

 Against an enemy in rough terrain the scorpion men should exploit their multilegged climbing advantage and try to jump down from trees and boulders onto the humans. Scorps also will unexpectedly swarm up walls and slopes that humans would have a hard time climbing.

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Firstly, re: Initiates... I'd give them a higher POW and thus chance of Chaotic Feature - as per Natural Selection. Maybe even slightly higher stats. This is working on the idea that in order to get initiated, they'd need to have survived for a while first, and the stats would be important here.

Secondly, the definition of 'initiate' is one who has Rune spells, as part of the Initiation ceremony and the sacrifice of POW.

 

For the Lay Members, I'd give them all Speedart, as one of their major roles is slinging. Bludgeon also makes sense (for everyone). Both spells are listed in Bestiary as being typical.

Any RL is likely to have armour scavenged from their victims, so increase the torso AP by a good light scale and above.

There's not really a good reason they shouldn't also be skilled with shields. Or other weapons (although, metal ones would be less likely - except scavenged).

While I like the thinking, the 'platoon' idea is problematic with a species with an average INT of only 7 (although, as per my thoughts on initiates, RLs should probably have a higher INT - again, natural selection). With that INT, I can only imagine that they'd immediately just do whatever is most pro-survival for each individual, and to blindly rush in to attack. There wouldn't be any tactics. Combine this with the Chaoticness of their existence, and there's no way you'd form a coherent platoon or organised formation.

(I have an image of young kids, about grade 3 or 4, as having an INT of about 7... have you ever tried organising a class of them?)

 

ETA:

I'd also up the % for the Initiates. You say "over 50%", but I'd clarify that to the 70's and higher.

Also, they should probably have their Ironhand cast on their stingers - especially if a more intelligent RL or Initiate. Combined with Venom Boosting, this can really make them challenging! (and then add in the Carapace!!)

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Remember that RQ2 starting skill percentages are lower than RQG. That woudl be why the Creature of Chaos NPCs have the skill levels they do - they were scaled to oppose the adventurers of RQ2.  

As Shingingbrow says, I wouldn't expect too much discipline and organisation from them. I think maybe better then8-10 year olds.  Just having to survive will have taught them a thing or two about co-ordination.  But sophisticated tactics would be unusual.  Swarming to overwhelm would be more the style I'd expect.  Some standard tactics of softening up from the skirmishers, followed by a rush by initiates and maybe RLs.  I suspect Scorpionmen rely on numbers and surprise (and their sting) more than anything else.  Think of army ants.

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6 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

‘1) The scorpion men will organize according to the Bagog ‘s pyramidal  hierarchy, with about three to  five lay members (sword fodder) per initiate and four or five initiates per Rune Lord.  Thus a platoon of about 17-31.

2) The lay scorpion men will have skills of 35-50%, know Mobility or Heal 3, and that’s about it .  Only their roughly 35% chance of a Chaotic feature makes them really dangerous. 

3) The initiates will have at least one weapon skill above 50%, know Mobility & Healing 3,Ironhand, Protection 2.  Occasionally another spirit magic spell or two, assuming they have devoured some hapless human(s).  No Rune magic (though that may change when the Bagog entry in Cults of Glorantha come out next year.).   But they will average a point or two greater POW due to natural selection in the devouring game.

Don't forget Chaotic Features, they are what makes Scorpionfolk dangerous. Extra armour, casting Befuddle every round, increased CON or DEX, all can make a big difference in combat. Explodes on death is always a good one, as is Attacks slayer on death in Spirit Combat.

Also, give Scorpionfolk Ironhand, it increases the damage and attack chance. Fanaticism is also good, as it increases skills to a more dangerous level.

6 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

4) The Bagog Rune Lords will be truly dangerous:

First, they are likely to have more spirit magic:  Darkwall, Healing up to 6, and Protection 4.

Ironhand 4 is a must, I think, for Rune Lords of Bagog.

6 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

The next best Rune spell, Venom Boosting, does make the sting a little more deadly but does not increase its penetrating power, so he is still relying on 2D6 to penetrate the human’s armor and magic -  in other words a low probability event against  iron armor.

Even 2D6+4 gives an average of 11, enough to penetrate most iron armour. 

An average Scorpionfolk has 1D6 damage, beefier or larger ones easily get 2D6 damage bonuses, which means the average for1D6+2D6+4 becomes 14-15, enough to penetrate iron armour plus Protection 4. Really big ones can get +3D6 damage, punching through iron armour and Protection 4 with ease. Add in extra SIZ or STR from Chaotic Features and you get something that scores a hurting blow each time. You only need to do one point for damage for the venom to have an effect. If you have a Double Effect Chaotic Feature then an average CON 10 Scorpionfolk will do 20 points of damage, or 10 on a failed roll to overcome, add in Venom Boosting and it now becomes a fearsome opponent.

 

6 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

5) Of course the Bagog Rune Lords may also have looted human weapons.  These will only have a slight damage advantage over a large club, but will be more durable.  And who knows, your scorp may have picked up something horrendous like a Great Ax, though he should have a much lower skill than with his club due to only gaining the first 25% of the devoured former owner’s skill.

Rune Lords who underwent the Ritual of Rebirth retain their old skills so could have high weapon skills anyway, they would also retain theior old weapons.

6 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

6) Finally the Rune Lords should have an even higher chance of a chaotic feature and better POW, just because of natural selection.

Don't bother rolling for a chance of Chaotic Features for Rune Lords, just pick them, they are elite.

6 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

7) It seems to me that the scorpion man horde should operate in platoons:

Against an enemy in open order, the platoon will: Deploy with a skirmish line of 12 lay level slingers supervised and healed by three initiates,  and behind them a hard knot of the Rune lord, two initiates, and about eight lay members.   With their chitinous skin they should win or break even in most slinging fights.   If enemy go down early the skirmishers seize them for later devouring.  Meanwhile the hard knot picks out a leading enemy and rushes him using Mobility, may try for knockbacks, and will outnumber him heavily if he doesn’t have close left and right hand supporters.

Against an enemy in close order / shield wall they should be much less effective because the scorpion men’s chaotic inclination will make it unlikely that they drill themselves, so will not be in phalanx themselves (and they are unlikely to have shields anyway).  But against this close order enemy they should extend their line and try to overlap the human phalanx.  If there are enough scorpion men a Cannae should result as the humans’ flanks collapse and their center moves forward.

 Against an enemy in rough terrain the scorpion men should exploit their multilegged climbing advantage and try to jump down from trees and boulders onto the humans. Scorps also will unexpectedly swarm up walls and slopes that humans would have a hard time climbing.

They are rarely that organised, although those that are are much deadlier opponents.

Sure, they can use slings to shoot at enemies, but 8 points of damage isn't a lot against properly protected opponents.

Their strength is their stings, and the poison they deliver, so they prefer fighting in melee combat.

Also, don't forget their Natural Defence, if you hit a leg it effectively makes no difference to them, but that has not carried through to RQG.

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55 minutes ago, soltakss said:

An average Scorpionfolk has 1D6 damage, beefier or larger ones easily get 2D6 damage bonuses, which means the average for1D6+2D6+4 becomes 14-15, enough to penetrate iron armour plus Protection 4. Really big ones can get +3D6 damage, punching through iron armour and Protection 4 with ease. Add in extra SIZ or STR from Chaotic Features and you get something that scores a hurting blow each time.

Strength spirit magic spell would be quite nasty here, often giving a +3D6 DB (if not even higher!)

56 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Sure, they can use slings to shoot at enemies, but 8 points of damage isn't a lot against properly protected opponents.

While true, that Special or Crit can still be nasty... and when you've got a dozen slingers firing, there's a reasonable chance to get a Special every round.

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Re. Organization and INT (and effect on tactics) Cults of Terror indicates lay scorps are assigned to Initiates, initiates to Rune Lords.  So if the Initiates are smart enough to understand "skirmish line", or more likely "spread out and sling" then they should make it happen. 

My thought process is that with species 2D6 INT, averaging 7, and natural selection in Devouring,  the Initiates should average 8-9 ,(essentially throw away one 1 when rolling INT: The 2INT ones get eaten early.) Most Rune Lords should have iNT in  the 8 to 12 range, only lower if they have an impressive and durable  Chaotic Feature.  

This INT will not give them characteristic  bonuses for Battle skill, but the scorpion men as a species will have developed simple  skirmishing and envelopement tactics: "spread out and sling", "surround them" (this is harder and takes supervision), and "rush them NOW".    

I might be inclined to allow the Rune Lord to change tactics on a D100 roll vs. INTx5.  So the rush may be delayed until the dice roll right.

 

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9 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

.......

Secondly, the definition of 'initiate' is one who has Rune spells, as part of the Initiation ceremony and the sacrifice of POW. .....

Yes that RQ2 to RQiG transition.  It is hard to estimate how the Cults book will treat that for Bagog. 

It is possible that the Bagog concept will be different from other cults, since in the RQ2 cult no spirit magic was taught to lay members.(p.34 of Cults of Terror.).

Exactly how do the lay members  get to their suggested Mobiliry or Healing spells?  It must be by Devouring.  But the chance of learning a given spell by Devouring other scorpion men  is only INT+POW /2, an average of 7%; lower yet for Devouring other species,  an average of 14/4 = 4%.  At that rate it seems to me the road to getting the Mobility or Healing magic  to qualify for  initiation is hard and long. 

Recognize that with a low species max POW (It's 14: max rolled=12 + min rolled =2) and a starting average of 7, the Initiates can't afford to sacrifice much.  Worse, their  original RQ2 list of typical  spirit spells does not include any that help build POW like Disruption does.  It should take a very fortunate scorp to build much POW.  It looks to me as though the Sacred Time opportunity may be their major chance.

 

 

Edited by Squaredeal Sten
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I am prepping a Scorpion man squad for tommorrow. I have settled on eight lay members drawn from the stats in Smoking ruins. 3 of them have chaotic features , High strength, High Dex and regeneration. Their leader is a former Orlanthi I have given him skills comparable to a good begginngin warrior, 90% sword and some other weapon skills, he has real armour on his torso and head. I have also given him Bagog rune magic. He also has the chaotic feature to jump around 14 metres. I also gave the leader as a reborn scorpion man human level intelligence although he is barking mad. The leader also has a full set of spirit magic, Heal, Ironhand, Mobility and Bladesharp as well as a human level POW

The mook scorpion men have very little sprit magic and not many magic points

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Speaking of Ritual of Rebirth:

It was not re published in the Red Book of Magic.  I wonder whether this was intentional....

ANYWAY assuming Ritual of Rebirth reappears ,  ...

 It seems to me that the scorpion queen will just make a strategic division of the captives of a raid.  Some to be Devoured by the rank and file to distribute their knowledge, and some for her to eat to lay unusually talented eggs as an HR strategy. 

If she wants an interpreter and ambassador, eat an Issaries.  For administration eat a Lankhor Mhy.  For management and HR,  eat an Ernaldan?

On another related subject,

I do see this flat contradiction between Cults of Terror page 35 and RQiG as written: In COT one requirement for acceptance as a Bagog  Rune Priest is to have 18+ POW.  Clearly that is not going to happen with a species max of 14.  I would expect this to be resolved when the appropriate Cults of Ruequest volume is published.  Meanwhile I can run with POW 14 Bagog priestesses.

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1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Speaking of Ritual of Rebirth:

It was not re published in the Red Book of Magic.  I wonder whether this was intentional....

 

It is in the early release versions of the Cult books but is a ritual not a spell , it just takes place on sacred days. 

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5 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Speaking of Ritual of Rebirth:

It was not re published in the Red Book of Magic.  I wonder whether this was intentional....

Probably.  There's some theological issues with it.  Not as bad as some of the other cults but still raises the question of "how could that even happen?" 

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12 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

While true, that Special or Crit can still be nasty... and when you've got a dozen slingers firing, there's a reasonable chance to get a Special every round.

Which, excepting high-roll criticals to the head, will be pretty easy for a pc party to heal up from. Meanwhile  5 scorpion men were just taken out by arrow fire.

Their default mode of attack is an all-in swarm. Being an unusually competent scorpion man tactician is mostly about recognizing the cases where that is a bad idea. The response is more likely to be withdrawing than attacking in a cleverer way. Plenty of scorpion men are not competent, and will launch attacks that are almost certainly going to end in them being wiped out.

Scorpion men have one key tactical advantage, the extra attack. What that means is they are very deadly when they have numbers. If the PCs pick a defensible location where they can't be flanked and can heal their casualties, they probably won't lose anyone, and the fight will seem pretty easy. Any competent combatant in melee with one scorpion men will very likely win, because they will have better armour, magic, damage and skill. 

The same PC fighting 2 is in deep deep trouble; if they try to parry all 4 attacks, the last parry is at -90%. If they get surrounded and swarmed, then as soon as one PC goes down, the others will likely follow. Any time you stage a fight with scorpion men, remember that the stakes are a TPK.

Luckily, while scorpion men don't take ransom, they do normally take their captives alive back to the queen to be eaten. Assuming you don't want to continue the campaign with them in their new form,  this provides plenty of of opportunity to have someone rescue the PCs. if that someone is unfriendly, they would then be well within their rights to claim ransom. Otherwise, a favor will be owed.

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20 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

... Thus a platoon of about 17-31 ...  Only their roughly 35% chance of a Chaotic feature makes them really dangerous ... 

Numbers alone can be dangerous in RQ.  The odds of (at least some) Specials and Criticals become rather high.

When one side has a substantial numerical advantage, the other side needs to be a lot better, or there's a real risk of PC-death.

 

41 minutes ago, radmonger said:

Which, excepting high-roll criticals to the head, will be pretty easy for a pc party to heal up from...

Assuming that the PC's win the fight quickly enough.  It's not like it's D&D5 with 3 successive melee rounds of death-saves before the PC is "all the way" dead.  Maybe they have a spirit who can heal, and not take a PC out of action... or maybe not.
 

41 minutes ago, radmonger said:

...

Their default mode of attack is an all-in swarm...

Scorpion men have one key tactical advantage, the extra attack. What that means is they are very deadly when they have numbers ...

The all-out swarm -- with extra attacks -- is actually quite tactically dangerous, particularly if you have a PC down & urgently needing to be healed.

 

41 minutes ago, radmonger said:

... If the PCs pick a defensible location where they can't be flanked and can heal their casualties, they probably won't lose anyone ...

In buildings (including ruins) and most underground locations (natural caves or crafted tunnels) such locations are pretty common.

In the wilderness, such locations can be much harder to find ...
 

Edited by g33k
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19 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

It is possible that the Bagog concept will be different from other cults, since in the RQ2 cult no spirit magic was taught to lay members.(p.34 of Cults of Terror.).

Exactly how do the lay members  get to their suggested Mobiliry or Healing spells?  It must be by Devouring.

I took that to mean that they can't get their spells from within the cult structure. There's no reason they couldn't get spells from a different source (eg, some shaman somewhere).

And, if so, then not only through devouring...

(Granted, this does presume they'd have the knowledge/INT to figure this out.... or even that the spells exist.)

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41 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I took that to mean that they can't get their spells from within the cult structure. There's no reason they couldn't get spells from a different source (eg, some shaman somewhere).

And, if so, then not only through devouring...

(Granted, this does presume they'd have the knowledge/INT to figure this out.... or even that the spells exist.)

What shaman will teach magic to scorpion men?  The Bestiary says "no one will teach it to them."  And lay (relatively young)  scorpion men will rarely have cash to pay, presumably at standard prices.  They rarely have jobs other than hunter  or raider.  They get to keep 10% of their loot and their catch, IAW Bagog cult rules.

I can imagine a broo shaman teaching them.  But the broo will not be teaching out of the kindness of his heart. 

And while Cults of Terror says broo may sometimes work with scorpion men groups, it seems likely the relationship is with the group / the queen,  and is  motivated by the advancement of Chaos,  not casual individual relationships.  LIving with them (scorps)  sounds dangerous.  After all a broo headed  scorpion man means that a broo ally got eaten.

So yes I can imagine a scorpion man buying spell teaching from a broo shaman, but it must be a rare event. That will not account for most lay scorps having magic.  A few yes, most no.

 

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25 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

The one you just grabbed, ate, and did the Ritual of Rebirth on? 🙂

Which brings up interesting points: Ritual of Rebirth says the reborn comes back with all skills and [spirit magic] spells.  But what happens to the fetch?  No fetch, no shaman.  And after all the old shaman is dead.  And reborn as a scorpion man meaning lower species maximum POW.  

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2 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

What shaman will teach magic to scorpion men?

Thed is an associate cult, so Thed shamans.

2 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

The Bestiary says "no one will teach it to them." 

Thed shamans are no one.

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32 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Which brings up interesting points: Ritual of Rebirth says the reborn comes back with all skills and [spirit magic] spells.  But what happens to the fetch?  No fetch, no shaman.  And after all the old shaman is dead.  And reborn as a scorpion man meaning lower species maximum POW.  

It says "the actual person", so I would assume everything is as intact as it can be, including in principle initiation status, rune levels, and so on. A lot of cults will likely be impossible to maintain, but in principle you could even snatch a god-talker, create lay members to the cult, and teach spirit magic that way. K'rana in Lords of Terror maintained her Humakt worship and teaches it (as best she can) to her tribe.

Being dead and returning to life can't destroy your fetch, or self-resurrection would be impossible. The person's spirit is still there in the reborn Scorpionperson, after all, and your fetch is just your magical self.

Edited by Akhôrahil
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By the way, two sessions ago we finally saw one PC go all-in with his crap-ton of Rune Points in a Scorpionman fight, doing a full Odayla bear transformation, Protection 6, some Impede Chaos, and Berserk. That was quite a sight, and at least two heads were ripped clean off, along with any number of limbs (one of them his own foreleg)! 

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23 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

It says "the actual person", so I would assume everything is as intact as it can be, including in principle initiation status, rune levels, and so on. A lot of cults will likely be impossible to maintain, but in principle you could even snatch a god-talker, create lay members to the cult, and teach spirit magic that way. K'rana in Lords of Terror maintained her Humakt worship and teaches it (as best she can) to her tribe.

Being dead and returning to life can't destroy your fetch, or self-resurrection would be impossible. The person's spirit is still there in the reborn Scorpionperson, after all, and your fetch is just your magical self.

Do you have a different version of Ritual of Rebirth, perhaps from the pre-final version of the Cults book?

What it actually says in Cults of Terror page 36 is:

[You may occasionally quote small sections of text, as long as you make clear where the text is from. By “small sections” we mean up to a sentence or two.]

That does not include the words "the actual person".

All that is specified that they keep is

' The upper torso and head will remain identical to the one
devoured; the lower body will now be that of a scorpion. Old
weapon skills of the devoured will remain intact, as will former
knowledge;
... "

So specifically weapon skills, generally "former knowledge" -  and that MAY be interpreted to include spirit magic. I am inclined to say that,  though it is not specifically there.  I would think knowledge includes non-weapon skills, languages, area lore, even memory of the family and friends,  etc

(So the scorp can present itself as your Adventurer's former friend or relative,  can recognize you and tell you how great it is to be a scorpion, come be on the wining side, hold still and let the Queen eat you, it will be over quickly.  But remember, he or she is now  one of them, are you really dealing with the former friend or is this essentially a recording being played by an inhuman and Chaotic enemy?  Horror movie stuff, drama for the game.)

But it does not specify that the person has not died.  Being eaten pretty much tells me they are dead.  Their spirit is reborn a season later, it is not in the Underworld, but in the interim they died and it is way past the usual seven days for resurrection even if you could reconstitute the body from scorpion crap. 

It does not specify that the reborn has his or her former cult status, Rune spells, allied spirits, or fetches.  Or Rune affinities.  Or characteristic stats.  I am pretty sure the characteristics will be revised to reflect scorpion man stats. 

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14 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Do you have a different version of Ritual of Rebirth, perhaps from the pre-final version of the Cults book?

Lords of Terror: "...the actual person emerges as a member of the scorpion race. He retains all his former skills and spells..." (this is for the more advanced use of the spell)

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On 3/26/2023 at 3:02 AM, DrGoth said:

Remember that RQ2 starting skill percentages are lower than RQG. That woudl be why the Creature of Chaos NPCs have the skill levels they do - they were scaled to oppose the adventurers of RQ2.  

 

Very true

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