Dragon Pass Sun Dome/Sun County

[svensson]

Is there any information detailing the Sun County next to the Lismelder Tribe in Dragon Pass?

I've looked, but I haven't found any reference.

[DrGoth]

Don't know about detailing, but the best I can find outside of fanzines in a couple of paragraphs on p.255 of Sartar Kingdom of Heroes. There's a few other references in the book, but that's the largest piece. Not much, I admit.

[svensson]

3 minutes ago, DrGoth said:

Don't know about detailing, but the best I can find outside of fanzines in a couple of paragraphs on p.255 of Sartar Kingdom of Heroes. There's a few other references in the book, but that's the largest piece. Not much, I admit.

Yeah, just passing references but that's it.

I ask because Prax Sun County's harsh environment and isolation has made it a hard, stern, dare I say 'Islamic' or 'Arabic' styled state. Rigid social control has allowed the Praxian Yelmalions to survive, but I wonder where the rigidity of the cult ends and the society starts. Using my Islamic analogy again, it's difficult to separate the influences of Arabic culture, Bedouin culture, and the Muslim faith. All are inextricably linked. For that matter, good freaking luck separating Catholicism from Italian culture.

So I'd like to see what a Sun County without the deprivation of the desert and the constant assault by the nomads might look like. I'd like to see the original Yelmalio culture that's more in tune with the 'frontier defender of the Sky pantheon among the hill barbarians' description we've seen in the past. After all, the Sun County of Prax is a transplanted religion the furthest away from its foundations in Peloria.

[7Tigers]

Wyrms Footnotes #15
&
https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/the-sun-dome-temple-in-sartar/

[Scotty]

You can also do a tag search on the Well of Daliath for Sun Dome (Sartar)

[DrGoth]

Doesn't say too much about what they are like.  None of the other Yelmalions - in Sartar or in Peloria - underwent the Solitude of Testing that Sun County in Prax did. I've always viewed them as like Sparta or Prussia. Remember the old saying "Every country has an army, except in Prussia, where the army has a country".   So in some ways, maybe not too much different to the Cult in Prax ;-).  I wonder if the big difference is, in Peloria, they are much more integrated. they know their place. Yelmalio is the Son of Yelm.  People worship the Solar Pantheon.  So maybe not less rigid (Solars I think re always rigid in their ways), but possibly less paranoid

[Nick Brooke]

Wyrms Footnotes #15 (print), Pegasus Plateau, my Gloranthan Manifesto, the old Dragon Pass board game, and some of the Sun County Backgrounds in Tales of the Sun County Militia will help you out.

Edited March 30, 2023 by Nick Brooke
Added links

[Nick Brooke]

And I’ll mention in passing that Jeff thinks he got some stuff badly wrong in WF#15, most notably the size of the helot “ergeshi” population (of former Kitori).

[Nick Brooke]

But is this “the original Yelmalio culture”? It’s a recent invention or discovery by Monrogh, who had visited Sun County in Prax and learned from its Templars before re-founding the Yelmalio cult in Sartar. The Praxian Sun Dome has been there for 700 years or so; the Dragon Pass Sun Dome is only half a century or so old (in its current incarnation, before that it had been a depopulated ruin since the end of the Second Age).

[Ludo Bagman]

Here are some recent notes from Jeff:

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/the-sun-dome-temple-in-sartar/

Note that the current temple and their government is relatively new, some 50 years old.

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

And I’ll mention in passing that Jeff thinks he got some stuff badly wrong in WF#15, most notably the size of the helot “ergeshi” population (of former Kitori).

Stab in the dark (i.e. without looking at the number in WF#15): turns out the helot population is smaller?

[Richard S.]

28 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Stab in the dark (i.e. without looking at the number in WF#15): turns out the helot population is smaller?

I mean, technically that's correct.

IIRC, Jeff's just gotten rid of the Ergeshi idea entirely, so the Sartar Sun Dome no longer relies on slave labor.

[mfbrandi]

14 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Sartar Sun Dome no longer relies on slave labor.

Done setting wide — not even the most depraved broo could imagine taking a slave — that could be quite refreshing.

[Richard S.]

9 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Done setting wide — not even the most depraved broo could imagine taking a slave — that could be quite refreshing.

They definitely aren't going that far. Slavery is presented as a chaotic act, and not common, but places like Fonrit are still alive and well. I'd guess it was removed from the Sun Dome largely because most Yelmalian PCs will be from there.

[Nick Brooke]

Well, Jeff reckons he screwed up the helot population numbers, but there was also a lot of pushback. (Remember, this is the guy who put a contemporary cult of Elmal into S:KoH. His track record on Sun Dome related matters isn't that great!)

[svensson]

I'll look into WF 15, though I'm not a big fan of chattel slavery as practiced by the Lakadaimonians..

The other references I have read or own [including your own excellent Sandheart series]

Edited March 31, 2023 by svensson

[Nick Brooke]

Martin @M Helsdon has a toned-down version of the ergeshi in his Armies & Enemies, which is also a great source for variations between Sun Dome Temples.

[Nick Brooke]

Oh, and I only did the layout for Sandheart, and wrote that family history appendix, and a hauntingly familiar Praxian ritual song in Book 4. The books are by Jon Webb and MOB.

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, Richard S. said:

I'd guess it was removed from the Sun Dome largely because most Yelmalian PCs will be from there.

That was the thinking behind my original sarcastic comment. White Hats vs. Black Hats.

I understand the thought that slavery is too icky — or too real-world sensitive — to include in a setting. I really do. It is not as if any of us here are fans of real-world slavery, chattel or otherwise. But then no one in Glorantha would do it.

But I am not a huge fan of “we are good guys, we would never; they are villains, they do it all the time — and to their own mothers!” I guess that being British, I am used to thinking that we are not good guys.

[M Helsdon]

11 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Martin @M Helsdon has a toned-down version of the ergeshi in his Armies & Enemies, which is also a great source for variations between Sun Dome Temples.

My source was the article in Wyrms Footnotes 15. The Sun Domers in Sartar there treat their helots far better than the Spartans treated their helots....

I assumed a wide variety of military cultures among the Sun Domes (though phalangite phalanxes are common), which often suggest variations in their civic culture. And of course there are Yelmalion regiments in Saird who don't fight with pikes: the White-Legs of Vanch (described in Greg's notes) are quite distinct.

[Jeff]

39 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

That was the thinking behind my original sarcastic comment. White Hats vs. Black Hats.

I understand the thought that slavery is too icky — or too real-world sensitive — to include in a setting. I really do. It is not as if any of us here are fans of real-world slavery, chattel or otherwise. But then no one in Glorantha would do it.

But I am not a huge fan of “we are good guys, we would never; they are villains, they do it all the time — and to their own mothers!” I guess that being British, I am used to thinking that we are not good guys.

That's not why I dropped the idea of the helots - rather it didn't make sense as I really looked carefully at the development of the Yelmalio cult. Greg liked the helots idea, and I am sure there are places where that social structure exists, but Sun County isn't one of them.

[Bren]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

That's not why I dropped the idea of the helots - rather it didn't make sense as I really looked carefully at the development of the Yelmalio cult.

Jeff, would you please explain a bit about why it now doesn't make sense to you? (Apologies, if you have explained elsewhere, but if so, I missed it.)

[hipsterinspace]

9 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

I understand the thought that slavery is too icky — or too real-world sensitive — to include in a setting. I really do. It is not as if any of us here are fans of real-world slavery, chattel or otherwise. But then no one in Glorantha would do it.

Slavery is still all over the place in Glorantha. The Orlanthi may be generally averse to it, but the Lunars are said to have widespread slavery within their empire and Fonrit has an entire social order based materially and metaphysically around slavery. Of the big player cultures, Esrolia has a lot of unfree labor through what amounts to a corvee system exercised by the Earth temples, but don't seem to have a tradition of chattel slavery natively. That said, Nochet has a neighborhood called Bluetown where I would imagine enslaved Fonritians live as chattel slaves of their Mazarin merchant owners.

As the Ergeshi go, personally I find the idea of the Yelmalio cult constantly trying to recapitulate a mythic victory of light over darkness in their social structures interesting. One of the most appealing options to me that it sets up is the potential for a Kitori Spartacus rising up as a PC or campaign hook, but it does make the Sun Domers a far less sympathetic group.

Edited March 31, 2023 by hipsterinspace

[svensson]

Well, I got WM 15 and I have to say that @Jeff's article is VERY interesting.

My concerns about chattel slavery are alleviated but Jeff's repeated use of the word 'serf'. Absolutely no disrespect is intended when I say that I'm assuming that Jeff knows the definitions [and most importantly the differences] between the terms 'slave', 'peasant' and 'serf'. A LOT of people confuse the terms and there are important legal distinctions.

- A peasant is anyone, free or bound, who works the land and is somewhat backward. It isn't that they're stupid, necessarily, but 'book-learnin' isn't part of their upbringing. On the other hand ask them about every trail, hillock, boulder, and dell within 5 miles of their home and they'll give you chapter and verse on how to get there, what lives there, the local folklore about the place, and what you'll find there in every conceivable weather.

- A serf is bound to the service of a landowner. They provide skilled labor in many trades including, farming, wood-copping, herding, veterinary, building, and carpentry. In exchange for their service they are provided with an equal share of the harvest [according to the acres they farm] after taxes, the protection of the landowner [both physical and legal], and have a specific 'place' in society. A serf is one of last people in a society to starve during a famine, for example, because the basis of property law entitles him to food even in famine. The urban poor have no such protections.

- A slave is actual property, no different from an ox or pig. They can be bought, sold, fed slop, beaten with impunity.

The Ergeshi are a conquered people and are not free, but the DO have rights of a sort and a specific place in society. They are not bought and sold and their families are not broken up for profit.

Yes, I fully grant you that none of the is morally or ethically right in 2023 Earth. But in 1600ST Glorantha the only other option was to massacre the Kitori.

[Squaredeal Sten]

3 hours ago, svensson said:

Well, I got WM 15 and I have to say that @Jeff's article is VERY interesting.

 the terms 'slave', 'peasant' and 'serf'. ......

- A serf is bound to the service of a landowner. They provide skilled labor in many trades including, farming, wood-copping, herding, veterinary, building, and carpentry. In exchange for their service they are provided with an equal share of the harvest [according to the acres they farm] after taxes, the protection of the landowner [both physical and legal], and have a specific 'place' in society. A serf is one of last people in a society to starve during a famine, for example, because the basis of property law entitles him to food even in famine. The urban poor have no such protections.

It's my impression that there is still some vagueness and / or regional variation in serfdom., as follows: 

In western Europe, a serf was bound to the land, which is slightly different from being bound to the landowner.  The place in society was connected to the geographic place.   Corvee labor for x many days per week was customary, not just sharecropping.  And yes there were customary protections, though periodic rebellions would indicate that the lords' power to interpret those protections could be very arbitrary.

However i am also aware that in Russia, prior to the emancipation of the serfs in the 1860s, ( https://www.britannica.com/event/Emancipation-Manifesto ) serfs were bought and sold, as well as removed from their ancestral lands.  I am not sure what distinguishes that "serf" status from slavery, and would be interested in an explanation from someone expert in Russian history.

 

As to how all this relates to Glorantha and the Ergeshi,  who am I to complain when their status and numbers are retconned?  I can see the desirability of softening the presentation of a player-character cult option.

But I do see the Kitori/Ergeshi episode as an echo of the repeated Real World events in and around Mesopotamia, in which defeated peoples were relocated as groups to farm the conquerors' under-used land.  (It appears that cities were chronically unhealthy places, tending to spawn epidemics,so they and their hinterlands had consistent negative population growth.)   This treatment of whole communities as moveable assets explains the depopulated /ruined cities that Xenophon mentions in Anabasis, and a specific example is the Biblical "Babylonian captivity".  However nasty this was for the victims, it is factual and I would not delete it from history any more than I would practice other censorship.  The legal position of these captive peoples was probably analogous to serfdom.