Bless Pregnancy

[DrGoth]

2 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'd imagine two people... the older, wiser midwife, and the younger apprentice who is learning the trade.

Makes sense to me

[Akhôrahil]

10 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

It would also take care of the "every Orlanthi has Lightning" issue... if Lightning became more difficult to acquire.

In some places (not Dragon Pass), Lightning specifically is a bit restricted, as it belongs to a/the Four Weapons subcult, and not everyone gets in there.

This would be an easy way to somewhat limit lightning. 

It’s kinda fascinating that among Orlanth worshipers, even the average Vargast doing farming or herding might break out a pretty lethal Thunderbolt or 3-point Lightning if provoked or attacked.

[David Scott]

Do we have any women in this thread who could provide a different perspective? When we were working on HeroQuest Glorantha, it was very helpful to get Claudia's (Jeff's wife) perspective on how Ernaldans work. 

[Shiningbrow]

On 6/15/2023 at 6:21 PM, Akhôrahil said:

In some places (not Dragon Pass), Lightning specifically is a bit restricted, as it belongs to a/the Four Weapons subcult, and not everyone gets in there.

This would be an easy way to somewhat limit lightning. 

It’s kinda fascinating that among Orlanth worshipers, even the average Vargast doing farming or herding might break out a pretty lethal Thunderbolt or 3-point Lightning if provoked or attacked.

It seems to me that the whole sub-cults thing is getting really stripped back to only a couple.

And in doing so, makes the availability of those specialised spells so much more open. This is not a good thing, IM(ns)HO.

[David Scott]

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

It seems to me that the whole sub-cults thing is getting really stripped back to only a couple.

As previous editions of RuneQuest. It wasn't an issue then either.

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

And in doing so, makes the availability of those specialised spells so much more open. This is not a good thing, IM(ns)HO.

As before, the limiting factor is available POW / Rune points. You will still likely have to send your adventurer to bigger temples where the sub cult exists as not all Minor temples have all the subcults, and while a greater has several, it still doesn't have all of them.

Lightning for example is an adventurous Rune spell. If you were a member of the Colymar tribe, you're limited to the Clearwine Lightbringers Temple and Larnste’s Table (shared with the Malani), both Major temples to Orlanth Adventurous or the wandering cart temple (all the other temples are Thunderous). 

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

As previous editions of RuneQuest. It wasn't an issue then either.

But the change in POW/RP economy changes this significantly. As does the change in spell selection.

Previously, when you sacrificed your POW to get a Rune/Divine spell, it was likely to be One-Use, and you were getting one and one only spell.

Now, you're getting indefinite usage of your POW sacrifice, and you get not only the one spell you want, but another dozen or so handed to you for free.

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

As before, the limiting factor is available POW / Rune points.

No so limiting when, as above, you automatically get a dozen 'free' spells along with your specialty one... and have it very reusable.

 

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

You will still likely have to send your adventurer to bigger temples where the sub cult exists as not all Minor temples have all the subcults, and while a greater has several, it still doesn't have all of them.

This needs to be made so incredibly clear...  how many new players are going to know how widespread X temple is, and what subcults are worshipped there??? (for each cult where this is relevant?) And, how about Ernalda? Currently, no sub-cults there...

[French Desperate WindChild]

45 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

But the change in POW/RP economy changes this significantly. As does the change in spell selection.

Previously, when you sacrificed your POW to get a Rune/Divine spell, it was likely to be One-Use, and you were getting one and one only spell.

Now, you're getting indefinite usage of your POW sacrifice, and you get not only the one spell you want, but another dozen or so handed to you for free.

No so limiting when, as above, you automatically get a dozen 'free' spells along with your specialty one... and have it very reusable.

 

This needs to be made so incredibly clear...  how many new players are going to know how widespread X temple is, and what subcults are worshipped there??? (for each cult where this is relevant?) And, how about Ernalda? Currently, no sub-cults there...

 

in addition there is not a big issue

you need to find the dedicated temple ONLY when you want to learn a spell. Not to "refuel" your runespell, any temple is fine for that.

So that's not a big sacrifice to say "during this season, I want to learn XXX so I will move to ZZZ between the adventures"

Players don't learn spell every "season"

 

I agree that changing [one use spell for initiate] to [one shared runepool reusable for spells]  is a big impact for the game design of course, but too for the background logic. And show some issues for some of us 🙂 Now, it is not very important if you don't focus on this background economy

[Squaredeal Sten]

It seems to me that any Ernaldan with ambitions for the priestesshood should get Bless Pregnancy and Bless Crops.  They seem so basic to Ernalda and have guaranteed demand.  And anyone else who wants them, like that midwife, will expect the priestess to know and teach them.  So that establishes a mininum.

But I don't think you should use that minimum in upur game if you want it believable or "realistic" .  Whatever that means in a fantasy game.  Why?

Beyond that, consider that a even a stead with a longhouse and extended family should provide for more than one pregnancy a year.  This is a society that is 1/3 children!  Some years the stead may not have any but other years they may have 2 or 3.

Therefore a clan of about 800 with about. 200-220 women if childbearing age will need many more Ernaldans with Bless Pregnancy than just the clan priestesses.  240 children under 16 implies 15 births a year at steady state. More if you have child mortality or are making up for the Great Winter.  How much child mortality? An answer to that is necessary if you want a better Bless Pregnancy estimate.

Next consider that an Ernaldan with BP may not want to have it perpetually in use and tightly scheduled.  That limits her other magic use.  Her family has crops and Injuries too.  She even sees a husband off to war, too often in the Hero Wars.  And it is not smart to have no RP reserve.

[metcalph]

6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

But the change in POW/RP economy changes this significantly. As does the change in spell selection.

The POW/RP economy was a big thing introduced in RQ3.  It was so restrictive that many people and official publications just simply fudged the numbers.  If anything, the RGG system is far more liberal with available magic.

 

 

[Shiningbrow]

7 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

It seems to me that any Ernaldan with ambitions for the priestesshood should get Bless Pregnancy and Bless Crops.  They seem so basic to Ernalda and have guaranteed demand.  And anyone else who wants them, like that midwife, will expect the priestess to know and teach them.  So that establishes a mininum.

But I don't think you should use that minimum in upur game if you want it believable or "realistic" .  Whatever that means in a fantasy game.  Why?

Beyond that, consider that a even a stead with a longhouse and extended family should provide for more than one pregnancy a year.  This is a society that is 1/3 children!  Some years the stead may not have any but other years they may have 2 or 3.

Therefore a clan of about 800 with about. 200-220 women if childbearing age will need many more Ernaldans with Bless Pregnancy than just the clan priestesses.  240 children under 16 implies 15 births a year at steady state. More if you have child mortality or are making up for the Great Winter.  How much child mortality? An answer to that is necessary if you want a better Bless Pregnancy estimate.

Next consider that an Ernaldan with BP may not want to have it perpetually in use and tightly scheduled.  That limits her other magic use.  Her family has crops and Injuries too.  She even sees a husband off to war, too often in the Hero Wars.  And it is not smart to have no RP reserve.

I certainly agree with same of the logic here, but I think we should also consider that being an Initiate means a sacrifice of 1 POW, and therefore it only takes another point to have a basic Bless Pregnancy... as you said, only about 15 or so needed per year - so 15 initiates (spread out over those 200-220 women).

The only thing I would question is whether those with BP are actually intending to head towards the priestesshood... and I don't think that's a requirement. Being a temporary midwife's assistant would be enough.

[Squaredeal Sten]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

........

The only thing I would question is whether those with BP are actually intending to head towards the priestesshood... and I don't think that's a requirement. Being a temporary midwife's assistant would be enough.

The priestesshood part was to establish a minimum.  It is not a book requirement for Adventurers, but would be a basic expectation for a temple priestess, for reasons I gave.

But most of my discussion was directed toward treating the NPCs more like real people, rather than attempting to minimize possession of BP for reasons of efficiency in..,what?

 

[Shiningbrow]

25 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

The priestesshood part was to establish a minimum.  It is not a book requirement for Adventurers, but would be a basic expectation for a temple priestess, for reasons I gave.

But most of my discussion was directed toward treating the NPCs more like real people, rather than attempting to minimize possession of BP for reasons of efficiency in..,what?

 

This is why I think there should be more sub-cults. There is quite a variation within Ernalda worship such that some priestesses wouldn't need to have it, such as the HQ Ernalda the Queen. (just as Orlanth Rex doesn't need to have Lightning).

[French Desperate WindChild]

26 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

The priestesshood part was to establish a minimum.  It is not a book requirement for Adventurers, but would be a basic expectation for a temple priestess, for reasons I gave.

But most of my discussion was directed toward treating the NPCs more like real people, rather than attempting to minimize possession of BP for reasons of efficiency in..,what?

 

Ernalda is a very large cult, there are the family part, but not only

I have not enough lore to give a lot of examples but

those who are "intended"  to follow Ernalda the mother should have of course bless pregnancy.

Now, those who will be/try to become  the queen may follow other ways

Or those focused on plants.

 

4 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

This is why I think there should be more sub-cults.

same idea in the same time 🙂

 

that's not the way of rqg and its background but

I would prefer  that a "big" god has 5-10 majors subcults*. medium god = 2-4 majors subcults, little god 0-2 subcults

What I call major subcult = temple dedicated to the subcult, with its own ecosystem and hierarchy.

And probably with rules explaining that it is not so easy to join several sucults, some proof to give that you really follow several ways, just not one pow, more oath, more roleplay, more "quest" to validate it.

For example being initiate of both adventurous and thunderous should be a hard process for a pc. Not to prevent it, but to transform the "I want a new spell" in a great story, with big challenges (of course same if you want to be initiates of different cults).

Cults are probably, in my humble opinion, the main factor of differentiation with other rpg ( remember me how many pages for the different cult books ?)

 

Initiation is a very good material for adventure (just see how "six seasons in sartar" is a great idea, I would say a "standard").

that's too bad the rules don't tell a lot about it, and a lot will see it as "roll three dices and that's done"

 

 

[DrGoth]

On 6/18/2023 at 6:50 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

It seems to me that any Ernaldan with ambitions for the priestesshood should get Bless Pregnancy and Bless Crops.  They seem so basic to Ernalda and have guaranteed demand.  And anyone else who wants them, like that midwife, will expect the priestess to know and teach them.  So that establishes a mininum.

But I don't think you should use that minimum in upur game if you want it believable or "realistic" .  Whatever that means in a fantasy game.  Why?

Beyond that, consider that a even a stead with a longhouse and extended family should provide for more than one pregnancy a year.  This is a society that is 1/3 children!  Some years the stead may not have any but other years they may have 2 or 3.

Therefore a clan of about 800 with about. 200-220 women if childbearing age will need many more Ernaldans with Bless Pregnancy than just the clan priestesses.  240 children under 16 implies 15 births a year at steady state. More if you have child mortality or are making up for the Great Winter.  How much child mortality? An answer to that is necessary if you want a better Bless Pregnancy estimate.

Next consider that an Ernaldan with BP may not want to have it perpetually in use and tightly scheduled.  That limits her other magic use.  Her family has crops and Injuries too.  She even sees a husband off to war, too often in the Hero Wars.  And it is not smart to have no RP reserve.

Which to me gives you the one a stead idea (or an older one plus an assistant). That would cater for the numbers involved.

In the RBopM the runes for it are earth and fertility.  In theistic societies that don't worhsip Ernalda who would have it?  Maybe Dendara for a start? 

[David Scott]

3 hours ago, DrGoth said:

Maybe Dendara for a start? 

Dendara has the same Runes as Ernalda (Plus light), as does Faranar. You'll be able to see who else is Ernalda in the Prosopaedia.

[David Scott]

On 6/18/2023 at 7:35 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

those who are "intended"  to follow Ernalda the mother should have of course bless pregnancy.

Midwives follow the Ernalda subcult of Eninta, goddess of childbirth who provides Birthing (and is likely the focus for those who would chose the other birth related magics)

[Ali the Helering]

On 6/17/2023 at 2:15 PM, David Scott said:

As previous editions of RuneQuest. It wasn't an issue then either.

If all you are interested in is function, no.  If you want meaningful complexity, yes.

[Ormi Phengaria]

On 6/15/2023 at 4:27 AM, David Scott said:

Do we have any women in this thread who could provide a different perspective? When we were working on HeroQuest Glorantha, it was very helpful to get Claudia's (Jeff's wife) perspective on how Ernaldans work. 

Eh, close enough. Sure. I am also certified to attend and assist home or field deliveries and assess potentially dangerous reproductive health situations. Here's what pops out to me about Bless Pregnancy:

Quote

For the duration of her pregnancy, she does not suffer any of the pains and sicknesses of her condition.

That can mean a lot of things, but because this spell explicitly stacks with Birthing, which specifies it grants "safe and painless pregnancy", I will assume that Bless Pregnancy is talking about the typically unavoidable miseries, difficulties, and inconveniences of pregnancy itself rather than other reproductive problems.

In a choice between Bless Pregnancy and Birthing, you should always choose Birthing. This spell is miraculous: not only does it safely heal someone of an ectopic pregnancy, it changes that pregnancy into a healthy uterine pregnancy, it prevents any of the serious complications involved in labour and even prevents any possibility of stillbirth. No deep vein thrombosis or risk of embolism. Probably the greatest spell of life/fertility in Glorantha.

Bless Pregnancy's +50% to the childbirth roll also guarantees live birth, but also increases the likelihood of twins, if I understand it correctly? The main attraction of this spell is avoiding debilitating impairment, but like the health risks of pregnancy and labour to the mother, RuneQuest doesn't come with any rules or guidelines on playing that out. Nonetheless, pregnancy comes with the risk of not being able to do much work for up to about two seasons, and losing a single person's contributions can be painful to a premodern agricultural community. Bad timing can be even worse. Bless Pregnancy solves both of those issues, and so is probably more common than a direct comparison with other Rune Spells may suggest.

[Akhôrahil]

19 hours ago, Ormi Phengaria said:

Bless Pregnancy's +50% to the childbirth roll also guarantees live birth, but also increases the likelihood of twins, if I understand it correctly? The main attraction of this spell is avoiding debilitating impairment, but like the health risks of pregnancy and labour to the mother, RuneQuest doesn't come with any rules or guidelines on playing that out. 

RuneQuest borrowed the childbirth system from Pendragon, where there is a decent risk to the mother's life. I believe the reasoning in RQG is that, unlike in Pendragon, the pregnant woman can be a PC (she technically can be in Pendragon, but it's rare), they don't want to kill PCs with a random roll.

Edited June 25, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Qizilbashwoman]

19 hours ago, Ormi Phengaria said:

This spell is miraculous: not only does it safely heal someone of an ectopic pregnancy, it changes that pregnancy into a healthy uterine pregnancy, it prevents any of the serious complications involved in labour and even prevents any possibility of stillbirth. No deep vein thrombosis or risk of embolism. Probably the greatest spell of life/fertility in Glorantha.

I have always said that nothing so fundamentally changes Glorantha's relationship to real life premodern societies than the safety and surety of women and children's health. This is also why I've always said that the population would much more resemble the modern world's than any premodern society. Nobody needs 18 children to ensure some survive, and women don't suffer and die.

There absolutely must be ways to control population growth ("silphium", but also preventing pregnancy, or maybe spells) because no society can survive a tenfold growth every generation. Milk supplements are available in ancient herding cultures, meaning women are once again fertile rapidly after birth, and since this is also a factor in Glorantha, there must be routine ways to control births.

Edited June 25, 2023 by Qizilbashwoman

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I have always said that nothing so fundamentally changes Glorantha's relationship to real life premodern societies than the safety and surety of women and children's health. This is also why I've always said that the population would much more resemble the modern world's than any premodern society. Nobody needs 18 children to ensure some survive, and women don't suffer and die.

There absolutely must be ways to control population growth ("silphium", but also preventing pregnancy, or maybe spells) because no society can survive a tenfold growth every generation. Milk supplements are available in ancient herding cultures, meaning women are once again fertile rapidly after birth, and since this is also a factor in Glorantha, there must be routine ways to control births.

Another important factor is the ability to control the sex of the baby using the spell. We know how that's abused in for instance India even today.

Sartarites are reasonably egalitarian, but it's only too easy to imagine how it would be misused among patriarchal Yelmalio cultures (or worse, Dara Happan, assuming Dendara has the spell).

[Ironwall]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Nobody needs 18 children to ensure some survive, and women don't suffer and die.

I must point out they still harvest by hand, not to mention all the small tasks that are still important in a agrarian bronze age society that need to be done. Families are likely larger than an average family in a modern industrial society by a decent margin. Also considering that most women are in the ernalda cult thiers is probably a social and religious pressure to have large families.

[Shiningbrow]

17 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

There absolutely must be ways to control population growth ("silphium", but also preventing pregnancy, or maybe spells) because no society can survive a tenfold growth every generation.

Agreed, but i wonder who would supply that spell...? I can't see Ernalda going against her most primal instinct, and it doesn't seem right for either the Maiden or the Crone. Babeester Gor maybe? Maran Gor??

 

 

15 hours ago, Ironwall said:

I must point out they still harvest by hand, not to mention all the small tasks that are still important in a agrarian bronze age society that need to be done. Families are likely larger than an average family in a modern industrial society by a decent margin. Also considering that most women are in the ernalda cult thiers is probably a social and religious pressure to have large families.

I wouldn't agree with this too much - slightly larger families, maybe. Look at our current farming culture in industrialised areas (which, granted, aren't the same), but given the high rate of people living into their teens, I would think most families would only have 3-4 kids, with 5-6 being unusually large.

Also remember that farming is much more communal, and extended families will work together (and live close by).

[JRE]

I place the anticonceptive magic as something between charm and minor magic, below even MP cost, and I assume that there are many such magics that are below the game scale but that show that this is a magical world. From cleaning your tools or clothes to killing vermin, and all things that improve quality of life.

I assume anticonceptive magics go with Death affinity, which is why I expect the use of charms, as many people will have high Life/Fertility affinities and therefore would be bad at anticonception. But I also consider high Death affinities are naturally infertile, and will need active magic (of the kind that requires MPs or RPs) to be able to conceive, so this may well be a minority view.

Easy anticonception fits with the saying: "Sex is easy, Marriage is hard" as indicating few teenage pregnancies among the Orlanthi.

Just remember to leave the Death charm at home when going to an Ernaldan rite, or there may be consequences, usually that it burns out and no longer works...

As for who makes and supplies these charms, I would expect that is why people attend the Maran Gor shrines in Ernalda's temples, and a similar reason would keep Gorgorma's shrines in Dendara's temples, despite the displeasure of the male dominated cults. BG could justify it, and may supply such magic to its initiates, but it is not her real role, unlike the blasted Earth.

Even in combat areas, I expect most people will be using magic to look better and be attractive, to protect food sources, from plant diseases to mice eradication, and to amuse yourselves in the long Dark and Storm seasons nights. And without spending tons of Magic Points. A small blessing to keep your breath sweet before a dance, or the wheat from spoiling. I consider their use is part of the normal skills or stat rolls, and the effect is mainly atmospheric, a reminder that magic is widespread.

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

Agreed, but i wonder who would supply that spell...? I can't see Ernalda going against her most primal instinct, and it doesn't seem right for either the Maiden or the Crone. Babeester Gor maybe? Maran Gor??

would say ernalda herself

after all, trees grow where there is enough space water and sun

beasts grow if there parents are able to feed them

 

 

and as gods and goddess may have a different conception/manner of giving life I would say the primal instinct of Ernalda (subcult-mother) is more to take care of the living children. Having both attribute of lust and motherhood the only option she has is to choose what she wants (being mother or having pleasure and prevent pregnancy)

Her body, her choice 🙂

I m like @JRE no need of any "named" rune spell or spirit spell, no need of any mp, it is part of the secrets women learn during their initiation. Is it magic, is it only physical, don't know ... and i will let it as a "mystery"