BRP Ancient Greece?

[Thalaba]

I've been fanatasizing about a "Heroic Age" campaign for some time but tying into current Archaeology, Genetics and Linguistics and perhaps more properly referring to it as a "Invasion of the Sea Peoples Era" campaign . Shiploads of reavers knocking over coastal settlements, looking for a new land to set themselves up. Incorporating the Trojan War into the broader context of the period like the sack of Ugarit and Egypts "troubles" with the Sea People.

I bought this but haven't read it yet (so have no idea how good it is): http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lords-Avaris-David-Rohl/dp/0712677623

"The Lords of Avaris is one man’s journey in search of the legendary origins of the Western World.

Our story begins in a small rock-cut tomb below the desolate ruin-mound of Jericho in the Jordan Valley. This is the start of an epic journey of discovery, in the Homeric mould, which ranges across the ancient lands and archaeological sites of the Mediterranean. From Joshua’s Jericho to Romulus’ Rome, the true chronicle of our pre-Christian past is uncovered revealing an extraordinary historical picture, previously unimagined by scholars.

The epic legends of the West, which permeate the writings of Greece and Rome, appear to have been based on the exploits of genuine historical figures and actual events. There really was an ‘Heroic Age’ of brazen-clad warriors, the last of which fought before the walls of Troy, just as described in Homer’s Iliad.

At the beginning of the Middle Bronze Age – two thousand years before the assassination of Julius Caesar in the Roman Senate – a new people appeared on the stage of history to join the great civilisations of Mesopotamia and Egypt. These ‘Indo-European’-speaking tribes were chariot-riding warriors from the northern mountains and plains. They became the Hittites, the Aryan kings of Mitanni, the Vedic heroes of the Indus, and the founders of the later empires of Greece, Persia and Rome. They had many legendary names – the Divine Pelasgians of Greece, the Luwians of Troy and western Anatolia, the Rephaim and Anakim of the Bible, and the Hyksos rulers of Avaris who suppressed Egypt for generations. Their heroes and heroines are legionary: Inachus, mythical king of Argos in the Peloponnese; his daughter the beautiful Princess Io who married an Egyptian pharaoh; Danaus, the Hyksos ruler who, fleeing from Egypt to Greece, founded the Mycenaean dynasty which culminated in Agamemnon’s ill-fated Trojan War; Cadmus, the bringer of writing to the West; Minos, the Cretan high-king of Knossos who built the infamous Labyrinth; Mopsus, warrior and sage who led a vast Greek, Philistine and Anatolian army into the Levant in a daring attempt to seize Egypt in the time of Ramesses III. All these, and more, are the stuff of legend – but The Lords of Avaris reveals these Classical heroes as flesh-and-blood characters from our ancestral past."

[camazotz]

I bought this but haven't read it yet (so have no idea how good it is): http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lords-Avaris-David-Rohl/dp/0712677623

"The Lords of Avaris is one man’s journey in search of the legendary origins of the Western World.

Our story begins in a small rock-cut tomb below the desolate ruin-mound of Jericho in the Jordan Valley. This is the start of an epic journey of discovery, in the Homeric mould, which ranges across the ancient lands and archaeological sites of the Mediterranean. From Joshua’s Jericho to Romulus’ Rome, the true chronicle of our pre-Christian past is uncovered revealing an extraordinary historical picture, previously unimagined by scholars.

The epic legends of the West, which permeate the writings of Greece and Rome, appear to have been based on the exploits of genuine historical figures and actual events. There really was an ‘Heroic Age’ of brazen-clad warriors, the last of which fought before the walls of Troy, just as described in Homer’s Iliad.

At the beginning of the Middle Bronze Age – two thousand years before the assassination of Julius Caesar in the Roman Senate – a new people appeared on the stage of history to join the great civilisations of Mesopotamia and Egypt. These ‘Indo-European’-speaking tribes were chariot-riding warriors from the northern mountains and plains. They became the Hittites, the Aryan kings of Mitanni, the Vedic heroes of the Indus, and the founders of the later empires of Greece, Persia and Rome. They had many legendary names – the Divine Pelasgians of Greece, the Luwians of Troy and western Anatolia, the Rephaim and Anakim of the Bible, and the Hyksos rulers of Avaris who suppressed Egypt for generations. Their heroes and heroines are legionary: Inachus, mythical king of Argos in the Peloponnese; his daughter the beautiful Princess Io who married an Egyptian pharaoh; Danaus, the Hyksos ruler who, fleeing from Egypt to Greece, founded the Mycenaean dynasty which culminated in Agamemnon’s ill-fated Trojan War; Cadmus, the bringer of writing to the West; Minos, the Cretan high-king of Knossos who built the infamous Labyrinth; Mopsus, warrior and sage who led a vast Greek, Philistine and Anatolian army into the Levant in a daring attempt to seize Egypt in the time of Ramesses III. All these, and more, are the stuff of legend – but The Lords of Avaris reveals these Classical heroes as flesh-and-blood characters from our ancestral past."

Okay, I'm ordering that book...right...now.

Also ordering this: Chimera. Read it years and years ago, but I think it would provide a lot of inspiration to re-read it today.

[HierophantX]

Seriously.. this has pretty much dominated my idle thoughts since I read those words. I'm all reading up on the "New Chronology" and Shi'ite.

You know, frankly the traditional chronology just didn't make sense in many ways and how the Minoans, Mycenaeans, Anatolians, and the rest are so many weird jigsaw pieces that don't fit... why didn't someone do this earlier?

Maybe this forum isn't the place to hash out the whole old chronology/new chronology issue and I'm only a light-weight archaeo-nerd (2 digs, field school and a year of course-work, and it was mostly pre-contact Native American anyway) But still, there are fascinating things afoot that are changing our understanding of the period between the DNA, linguistics and archaeological record.

Maybe there needs to be a BRP monograph on this "Heroic Age" and some essays need writing!

[soltakss]

Old School: Hordes of Indo-European invaders sweep through the Near East and Europe in waves of conquests

New School: A few Indo-European farmers peacefully talk to their neighbours who speak to their neighbours, gently and peacefully spreading the language and cultures across the Near East and Europe

I'm more Old School, myself ...

I've always thought that the Minoans/Myceneans/Anatolians were connected is a huge pan-culture - after all, they traded with each other for years and had religious and cultural contacts. Look at the Greek Myths - they made no real distinction between the peoples of the Near East and Greek Islands/Mainland, at least that's how I read them.

[HierophantX]

I think this Rohl guy is more old school than hippie peacenik new school.

[Agentorange]

I think this Rohl guy is more old school than hippie peacenik new school.

And lets face it which is going to be more fun to roleplay ?

1) leaping from the wooden horse, running to the gates of Troy and letting the Greek army in whilst desperately holding back the warriors of troy for a few vital seconds

2) ambling over to a farmer and explaining the finer points of turnip growing

[rust]

I've always thought that the Minoans/Myceneans/Anatolians were connected is a huge pan-culture - after all, they traded with each other for years and had religious and cultural contacts.

Not quite, the Minoans and some of the people of the Anatolian coast had very

old high cultures, while the Mycenaeans and some of the Indoeuropean newco-

mers on the Anatolian coast remained true barbarians for a couple of centuries.

These cultures only began to merge after the desaster which almost destroyed

the Minoan culture, most probably the explosion of the Santorini volcanoe, which

made it possible for the Mycenaeans to occupy Crete and take over the previ-

ously Minoan sea trade routes. Until then the Minoan culture had more contacts

and similarity with the cultures of Egypt and Phoenicia.

[dragonewt]

And lets face it which is going to be more fun to roleplay ?

1) leaping from the wooden horse, running to the gates of Troy and letting the Greek army in whilst desperately holding back the warriors of troy for a few vital seconds

2) ambling over to a farmer and explaining the finer points of turnip growing

3) Slowly infiltrating and undermining political/cultural control/communication to obtain maximum dominance with minimal loss (which looks like #2 for some)

[seneschal]

New School: A few Indo-European farmers peacefully talk to their neighbours who speak to their neighbours, gently and peacefully spreading the language and cultures across the Near East and Europe

Riiiiight! And the whole David vs. Goliath thing was just a misunderstanding about a bad baseball play.

[camazotz]

I think there's plenty of room for conflict even in a reasonably new-school historical approach. I got Rohl's book in at last, will be reading it asap. Still plugging along...worked out a reasonable atlas of sorts for the Pellopenese region with a focus on Mycenae and its relations to the pelasgians, Minoans and so forth. I can already tell that Arcadia is going to be the "weird forestland you don't want to get lost in," for example.

Anyway, it's not a lot yet, but I've worked out a brief outline with some distinctly supernatural plots, and some key central locations in which to set the action:

Shadows over Mycenae

Within the streets of this city-state fortress a darkness surfaces. Foreigners from the north, the Pelasgian tribes have been at war with the Mycenaeans for decades, but the attacks have grown bolder. Meanwhile, the elder king Perseus and his wife Andromeda, who is herself a native of Ethiopia across the sea, where Perseus’s eldest sone Perses rules. Perses has recently sent a delegation to warn his father: cults have risen, involving the Three Sisters, of whom Perseus slew Medusa so long ago. It is whispered that her sisters Stheno and Euryaile are at last intending their revenge against his murder of their sister. The stories that the three sisters are in fact hideous monsters that can petrify men only help fuel the fire of rumor.

Elsewhere, in the northlands of the pelasgians of the mainland a new cult has arisen, which claims that the mother of all monsters, Echidna, conspires with her children to plot the freedom of her husband Typhon from his grave beneath Mount Aetna, through which a portal to Tartarus can be found. The Oracle of Echidna claims she seeks revenge against the gods (and Zeus in particular) for their imprisonment and subjugation, and plans to achieve this by freeing Typhon, her husband. The apocalyptic claims of this mysterious oracle in the north are sparking rebellion and dissention among the pelasgian tribes, who now grow emboldened and strike out against Mycenaean outposts along the northern territory.

Typhon’s portal to Tartarus is said to be located beneath Mount Aetna, on a remote Isle to the mysterious western lands of the Etrustcans (Sicily). The Oracle of Echidna believes that with enough strength, Typhon will be able to break free. To accomplish this, the oracle and Echidnae’s cultists believe they have been called forth to awaken the brood children of the Mother of All Monsters, to awaken these chthonic beings to wreak havoc against the Mycenaeans and other followers of the young gods.

Gazetteer

Mycenae

(from Wikipedia) during the Bronze Age: “During the Bronze Age the pattern of settlement at Mycenae was a fortified hill surrounded by hamlets and estates, in contrast to the dense urbanity on the coast (cf. Argos). Since Mycenae was the capital of a state that ruled, or dominated, much of the eastern Mediterranean world, the rulers must have placed their stronghold in this less populated and more remote region for its defensive value.”

The Mycenaeans are a hardy lot, engaging in athletic games, military training and civic responsibilities while managing their households. The region is a hub of farmland filled with houses and estates, surrounded and protected by the palatial fortress on the high hill.

The king of Mycenae is Perseus, who has in his middle years has settled down to manage his people and lives his glory years through the tales of orators who speak of his great deeds. Though he no longer carries the shield of Athena or the head of Medusa (which he gave to the goddess) he still carries the adamantine sword Zeus gave him in his youth. He rules with Andromeda, who remains the most beautiful woman of this era.

The Mycenaeans are worshippers of Zeus and the “greater pantheon” they have introduced to the mainland since their arrival.

Korinthos

Northward from Mycenae lies Korinthos, along the peninsular coast, where the people (all of Pelsasgian descent, worshippers of the old Titans) are ruled by the evil king Sisyphus. Korinthos and Mycenae are always at war, and have been for generations. Though no recent conflicts have been fought, the threat of the Pelasgians of Korinthos always looms, and insures the Mycenaeans remain vigilant in their military exercises.

The people of Korinthos have begun to adopt the worship of Zeus, and have looked away from the older Titans as their gods.

Kichyro and Nekromanteion

Southwest lies the city of Kichyro (late Ephyra), where the dark temple of Nekromanteion rests, acting as the eternal gateway to the land of the dead, Hades’ realm. Kichyro is the capitol of the kingdom of Thesprotia, which is another rival to the west of Mycenae. Here rules the Pelasgian king Thesprotos, a surviving son of Lycaon. Thesprotos fought and conquered all of the tribes in this region, bringing them under control and uniting them in to his kingdom. He built Kichyro as a fortress to both oversee his conquered lands and also to honor the nearby temple-shrine which protects the sacred entrance to Hades’ realm.

Worship of the cthonic gods is popular in this region. The mysteries of the portal to Hades, guarded by the priests of the Nekromanteion give the people and the land a sinister reputation. Necromancy is more common here (using necromancy as the literal process of divination from communion with the dead).

(Note: Nekromanteion may not have existed in the period I am setting this, but its just too cool to pass up)

Arkadia This land is an unspoiled wilderness in the region between Thesprotia and Mycenae, and haunted ruins found in Arkadia is where the legacy of Lycaon can be found. The oldest city lies in ruins, and it is said that lycanthropes born from the curse of Lycaon roam the region. Likewise, Pan, greatest of the satyrs, is said to roam throughout Arcadia, as do many other supernatural beings, some friendly, some dangerous to mortals.

From Wikipedia: “Geographically, ancient Arcadia occupied the highlands at the centre of the Peloponnese. To the north, it bordered Achaea along the ridge of high ground running from Mount Erymanthos to Mount Cyllene; most of Mount Aroania lay within Arcadia. To the east, it had borders with Argolis and Corinthia along the ridge of high ground running from Mount Cyllene round to Mount Oligyrtus and then south Mount Parthenius. To the south, the border Laconia and Messenia ran through the foothills of the Parnon and Taygetos mountain ranges, such that Arcadia contained all the headwaters of the Alpheios river, but none of the Eurotas river. To the south-west, the border with Messania ran along the tops of Mount Nomia, and Mount Elaeum, and from there the border with Elis ran along the valleys of the Erymanthos and Diagon rivers. Most of the region of Arcardia was mountainous, apart from the plains around Tegea and Megalopolis, and the valleys of the Alpheios and Ladon rivers.”

[Mithras]

I tried this semi-histoical approach years ago (1990?) and my players hated hated it. They wanted Zeus and everything they'd learnt in school, the 'classic' myths...hated when it was all 'debased' by archaeological realism!

I've been messing with a few resources now, still absorbing all the Mazes & Minotaurs stuff, as well as a free book I found on rpgnow called The New Argonauts. Of course GURPS Greece is pretty hard to beat, as well.

My current conundrum boils down to: Use Ancient Heroic-Age Greece for the mythology writ large (essentially set the setting in the Homeric vision of Greece), but reinterpreted through the lens of historical and archaeological information on the period. This would be a relatively dark and gritty campaign, where I extrapolate from the actual historical data on the period to reconstruct what it might have looked like in 1600 BCE Mycenae (Mukanai) during the period of conflict when the Pelasgians were (possibly) being displaced by or merging with the invading population of the Achaeans....or possibly even a case in which the local Mycenaeans (as well as the Minoans, who were on the verge of going into decline) were basically stuck between the Pelasgian populations and other Achaean tribes to whom they were related. Of course this is all happening right around the time when Thera was most likely to have erupted, which I think would make for a great story backdrop, and if I wanted to I could integrate some of the prototypes of the Atlantis tale from Plato in to the matter by suggesting that the real Atlantis was, in fact, an outlier colony of Minoans who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time when the volcano erupted.

I'm also debating how much of Graves and other advocates for the early Greek mythic transitional period to use. If I aim for a sort of quasi-archeo-historical recreation I could toy with the idea that maybe the Pelasgians were characteristic of the matrilineal "White Goddess" concept he espoused, with a society on the cusp of invasion by the Acheaeans and their patrilineal "Dyeus" (Zeus). I've also long thought that the entire myth-cycle of Zeus's triumph over Ouranos and the Titans was characteristic of a sort of relgious coup, in which the invading religion gains triumph over the beliefs of the subjugated by both absorbing and then subjugating the pantheon of local gods, which makes me think it would be interesting to emphasize the idea that many of the Titans might still be worshipped and represented in this period, but the faithful are losing ground to the Achaean invaders and their new system of belief and religion. This could make for great RPG plot fodder, as this being a fantasy setting means that there are real monsters, and the cultists of the Titans could be calling upon the monstrous children of those Titans (such as Echidna and Typhon's hideous brood of beasts like the hydra and the chimera among others) to cause as much strife as they can among the invading Achaeans (and maybe these monsters will be even more frightening and hideous than imagined...basically Greek art and tales do their best to capture the truly horrifying, mythosesque nature of the titanspawn). Of course the Achaean tribes are where all the young heroes spring from, and while noted warriors like Herakles and Perseus are destined to appear, the PCs get to play all the heroes that Homer never knew about (or whose deeds were misattributed to other heroes of the day). Most likely if I set it this far back then I could definitely make Perseus the dominant hero of the day....maybe set it in his waning years, with him ruling over Mycenae proper. This would mean Medusa is dead, but her sisters Stheno and Euryaile are still lurking and plotting the slayer of their sister's downfall.....another plot hook for young heroes.

Being fantasy there may well be some races to interact with. Obviously we have centaurs, satyrs and cyclopes, but the Telchines of Rhodes would make an interesting addition as well...possibly others.

Anyway, that's what I've got so far....

[Mithras]

I've stood at the circular hearth of Mycenae. That was my Mecca! And on the chariot ramp, the entrance into Tiryns, where Perseus undoubtedly rode up with the head of medusa hanging from his belt....

[HierophantX]

Considering what I'm up to at the moment game-wise Paul, I'd really be interested in looking at what you are doing for Zenobia.

Sadly I never did anything on mainland Greece but try to get from Athens to the ferry terminal at Piraeus. But the rich red earth of Crete with mountains covered in olive trees was something else...

[Bleddyn]

I may be wrong but, I think Pete Nash mentioned something about an Ancient Greece MRQII or BRP Supplement. It was on the Mongoose Forums. I know a few of us were trying to encourage him.

[Bleddyn]

The Lion Gate at Mycenae must have been something.... for me it would have been standing at Hissarlik/Troy. The old Micheal Wood " In search of the Torjan War" still captivates me even through the data is old and they have found the rest of the city on the plane below.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Bleddyn
Can't type to save my life

[rust]

I may be wrong but, I think Pete Nash mentioned something about an Ancient Greece MRQII or BRP Supplement. It was on the Mongoose Forums. I know a few of us were trying to encourage him.

You are right, and he also mentioned it just a few days ago here on this forum.

However, as I understood it he has a lot of projects in his new job, and so the

book about Ancient Greece had to go to limbo for now.

[Thalaba]

...the book about Ancient Greece had to go to limbo for now.

You're mixing your mythaphores, you know.

[Bleddyn]

To be honest I hope Pete and Loz do manage to find time in their respective projects to continue to expand the BRP/ "Wayfart" (MRQII had a better ring to it) Eternal Champion Line. Peter if you are out there " Achilles and Hector are waiting as well as a pantheon of other hero's of the Hellens".

[rust]

You're mixing your mythaphores, you know.

I know, but as Homer wrote in The Odyssey, "So it is that the gods do not give all men gifts of

grace - neither good looks nor intelligence nor eloquence."

[Pete Nash]

To be honest I hope Pete and Loz do manage to find time in their respective projects to continue to expand the BRP/ "Wayfart" (MRQII had a better ring to it) Eternal Champion Line. Peter if you are out there " Achilles and Hector are waiting as well as a pantheon of other hero's of the Hellens".

Don't worry I will write it. I just need to let the dust settle, clear a few more urgent projects off my waiting list, and then I can start the classical immersion research.

[dragonewt]

... and then I can start the classical immersion research.

Items for research when you are ready for the immersion:

1. Was the "linothorax" actually made of layered linen?
   
2. Is the correct term for the Hoplite shield "hoplon" or "aspis"? Does "hoplon" refer to any arms or equipment fielded by Hoplite infantry?
   

Edited May 27, 2011 by dragonewt

[rust]

1) There was a rather elaborate experimental archaeology project about the lino-

thorax. Unfortunately I have only a German description of the project and its re-

sults, but an online translation program should make it possible to understand the

basics of the content:

http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/technik/0,1518,675814,00.html

2) The correct name of the shield was "Aspis", because "Hoplon" is a general term

for military equipment (and almost the same in modern Greek).

Edit.: Found an English website about the linothorax project:

http://www.uwgb.edu/aldreteg/Linothorax.html

Edited May 27, 2011 by rust

[Thalaba]

Was the "linothorax" actually made of layered linen?

I've seen this asked before - the implication seems to be that people don't believe linen armour existed. Why the doubt? I thought it was pretty well accepted that the Egyptians used stiffened linen armour back into at least the New Kingdom, so why not the later Greeks and Macedonians?

Or am I misinterpreting the question?

[rust]

Yep, cotton, linen and silk have all been used for body armour, and they provided

a surprisingly good protection until the development of the metallurgy made im-

proved types of metal weapons with better edges possible.

[seneschal]

We think of those materials as soft and fragile ... and they are as T-shirt or bathrobe cloth. But the ancients laminated them together something in the way that old newsprint is glued to make paper mache. The result was hard and surprisingly tough. As long as you didn't get it wet, it was pretty effective.

"My dad went to Troy, and all I got was this lousy linothorax."