Spirit Cults Rune magic questions

[Godlearner]

A shaman and his followers may be worshiping multiple spirits. If these spirits grant Rune magic how do the are these pools reagianed? Would they have to have individual Worship <spirit> skills? Seems excessive.  Can they also know their CHA worth of Rune magic from each spirit?

[Richard S.]

Yes and yes.

Each cult has their own worship skill, but given the time commitments of being an initiate it's very unlikely you'll have more than two, maybe three.

Rune points per cult are capped at CHA.

[hipsterinspace]

Often shamans will be part of one or more spirit societies, a collection of similar spirits worshipped together as a single group and sharing a single rune point pool. We have examples of a few Praxian spirit societies and their patron great spirits in David Scott’s Prax thread (page 8 for the most up to date version); the big ones are the Sky Gazers (Polestar), the Burners (Oakfed), Thirstless (Zola Fel), Shadow People (Dark Eater), and the Hidden Ancestor/Twin Stars (Twin Stars) Societies. Air spirits are part of an Orlanth Society, but my understanding is that that’s broadly just being a part of the Orlanth cult.

So, for example, most shamans of the Thirstless society are probably initiated into the spirit cult of Zola Fel, the patron spirit of their society, some might even be Horned Man shamans who are a part of the Zola Fel’s rune cult. They are likely to be initiated into the other Praxian water spirit cults: Frog Woman, River Horse, and Dew Maid. Some might also be initiated into more peripheral or situationally useful water-aligned spirits like Diros, Moonbroth, or Rainbow Girl.

Edited June 30, 2023 by hipsterinspace

[Godlearner]

20 minutes ago, hipsterinspace said:

They are likely to be initiated into the other Praxian water spirit cults: Frog Woman, River Horse, and Dew Maid. Some might also be initiated into more peripheral or situationally useful water-aligned spirits like Diros, Moonbroth, or Rainbow Girl.

And what if they are not? That would be 6 Worship skills.

[hipsterinspace]

1 minute ago, Godlearner said:

And what if they are not? That would be 6 Worship skills.

My understanding is that if they are not a part of the spirit society it would be 6. If they are, it’s 1.

[David Scott]

8 hours ago, Godlearner said:

A shaman and his followers may be worshiping multiple spirits. If these spirits grant Rune magic how do the are these pools reagianed?

At their weekly worship ceremony per Congregation in the Core Rules, page 378.

8 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Would they have to have individual Worship <spirit> skills? Seems excessive.

Yes, this is the basis for spirit cults. As you start to worship more spirit, you need to have a different worship skill for each one (start

8 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Can they also know their CHA worth of Rune magic from each spirit?

Yes, however most spirit cults give only a few points of spirit magic. So having your CHA of Rune points is more likely if unusual.

[jajagappa]

18 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

Often shamans will be part of one or more spirit societies, a collection of similar spirits worshipped together as a single group and sharing a single rune point pool.

Yes, agree that this makes sense. If you start to cross into spirits from multiple traditions, then things become more difficult and require distinct Rune point pools, Worship, etc.

[Godlearner]

18 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

My understanding is that if they are not a part of the spirit society it would be 6. If they are, it’s 1.

Makes sense, but it seems that its a house rule for now. Is that correct?

[hipsterinspace]

1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

Makes sense, but it seems that its a house rule for now. Is that correct?

Per this post from David Scott:

“A spirit society is a collection of spirit cults that are culturally shared. Your rune points go into a shared pool, but you still have to ally each spirit individually.”

It seems straightforward enough to me.

[Richard S.]

That is still a houserule though

[French Desperate WindChild]

11 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Makes sense, but it seems that its a house rule for now. Is that correct?

Or see the seven mothers cult

each mother provides its own spell(s) but at the end of the day you worship one community of gods

 

so for me it is more how you see these spirits. Do they share something strong enough to be seen (and they have to accept too) as a community of spirits?

i mean a shaman should not create a community of spirits just because she wants one « rune pool » and one « worship day ». The spirits by themselves must be  « allied »

of course after lot of bargain sacrifice and heroquest, a shaman may create such alliance but at this time she would be so powerful that the reason would be more important than just have a personal advantage

[soltakss]

On 6/30/2023 at 12:49 AM, Godlearner said:

A shaman and his followers may be worshiping multiple spirits. If these spirits grant Rune magic how do the are these pools reagianed? Would they have to have individual Worship <spirit> skills? Seems excessive.  Can they also know their CHA worth of Rune magic from each spirit?

I play that Shamans can belong to a Spirit Tradition that allows them to pool their spirits together. So, a Shaman belonging to the Blue Pool Spirit Tradition could gain spells from Frog Woman, Bluegloom, or River Horse, as they are water spirits, but Blue Pool Rune Points can be used to cast any of the spells of the Spirit Lords in that tradition.

 

[soltakss]

On 6/30/2023 at 11:14 PM, hipsterinspace said:

Per this post from David Scott:

“A spirit society is a collection of spirit cults that are culturally shared. Your rune points go into a shared pool, but you still have to ally each spirit individually.”

It seems straightforward enough to me.

Yes, that is exactly how I play it.

[Shiningbrow]

17 hours ago, soltakss said:

I play that Shamans can belong to a Spirit Tradition that allows them to pool their spirits together. So, a Shaman belonging to the Blue Pool Spirit Tradition could gain spells from Frog Woman, Bluegloom, or River Horse, as they are water spirits, but Blue Pool Rune Points can be used to cast any of the spells of the Spirit Lords in that tradition.

 

While I get the basic premise, I'm a lot more confused about what would be considered a 'tradition' (or, as per @David Scott's "culturally shared".

Could that include spirits that are opposed or hostile to each other?  Does it include propitiary worshipped spirits?

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

While I get the basic premise, I'm a lot more confused about what would be considered a 'tradition' (or, as per @David Scott's "culturally shared".

Could that include spirits that are opposed or hostile to each other?  Does it include propitiary worshipped spirits?

It might help to look over @David Scott notes on the Praxian Traditions. Here's the Pantheon layout. The thread is here: Praxian tradition thread

Repeating from one of his posts down the thread: 

"It's straight from Nomad Gods with a few slight changes and additions from TOTRM 14,15 & 16.

The Burners - Spirits of Fire (RQG - The Lowfires but no Gustbran), headed by Oakfed.

The Sky Gazers - the rest of the Spirits of Fire, headed by Pole Star.

The Thirstless - Spirits of Water, headed by Zola Fel plus all of the Oases spirits.

The Shadow People - Spirits of Darkness, headed by Dark Eater (does include Mallia only when needed to be propitiated).

The Twin Stars - Themselves plus other Moon spirits (moonbroth, Redwood, Silver Deer).

The spirits of Air are part of Orlanth.

The Spirits of Earth are part of the Paps."

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Could that include spirits that are opposed or hostile to each other?  Does it include propitiary worshipped spirits?

As it's based on the concept of real world spirit societies, it is very variable as it's based on the shaman who heads the society. Societies are very unlikely to contain hostile or propitiated spirits. For example a shaman that leads the Shadow People, may be a member of Malia is times of great broo attacks and the spirit is added to the society for a while, but no worshipper learns rune magic. They just pay the propitiatory magic points. When the danger is over, they stop, the shaman no longer includes Mallia in the ceremony. Another shaman may not include Mallia like this (for many reasons), the worshippers would have to have a separate Worship (Mallia) skill.

[Godlearner]

7 hours ago, David Scott said:

For example a shaman that leads the Shadow People, may be a member of Malia is times of great broo attacks and the spirit is added to the society for a while, but no worshipper learns rune magic. They just pay the propitiatory magic points. When the danger is over, they stop, the shaman no longer includes Mallia in the ceremony. Another shaman may not include Mallia like this (for many reasons), the worshippers would have to have a separate Worship (Mallia) skill.

Ok, then why not have a single Worship Lightbringers skill to cover both Orlanth and Issaries?

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Godlearner said:

then why not have a single Worship Lightbringers skill to cover both Orlanth and Issaries?

Because they are gods, not small spirits....

[Godlearner]

33 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Because they are gods, not small spirits....

What's good for a goose is good for the gander.

[JRE]

Gods are jealous, spirits seldom are, unless you deal with their traditional enemies. So it will not be easy to join the Thirstless if you are already a Burner, but otherwise, as long as you do the right sacrifices, you get the magic without a continuous commitment like a god. More like Spirit magic, of course.

[David Scott]

10 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Ok, then why not have a single Worship Lightbringers skill to cover both Orlanth and Issaries?

Although theism doesn't really follow any spirit society model. but if you want to do that in your game that's fine. If my players were based in Clearwine, and only worshipped at the Lightbringer temple I'd likely allow it.

[Akhôrahil]

15 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Ok, then why not have a single Worship Lightbringers skill to cover both Orlanth and Issaries?

Or a Seven Mothers cult to cover all the individual mothers... oh wait.

Presumably, it would be possible to worship the Lightbringers collectively, but this Cult of the Lightbringers wouldn't have access to all the spells of the individual deities, much the way 7M don't. I could see such a thing existing in a place where Lightbringer worship was introduced but didn't fully take hold, and they retreated to a collective cult with wide but more shallow magic and myths.

Edited July 4, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[jajagappa]

1 minute ago, Akhôrahil said:

Presumably, it would be possible to worship the Lightbringers collectively

Temples to the collective Lightbringers do exist. I'd expect you'd only have the spells most relevant to the Lightbringer quest available there to learn, but could replenish Rune points for any of the associated deities.

[Akhôrahil]

11 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Temples to the collective Lightbringers do exist. I'd expect you'd only have the spells most relevant to the Lightbringer quest available there to learn, but could replenish Rune points for any of the associated deities.

Seems reasonable. I could easily imagine something like this existing in for instance Seshnela, or even in the Lunar Empire if they want to downplay Orlanth while maintaining worship. Or in other places due to cultic or historical reasons.

Edited July 4, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[French Desperate WindChild]

52 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Temples to the collective Lightbringers do exist. I'd expect you'd only have the spells most relevant to the Lightbringer quest available there to learn, but could replenish Rune points for any of the associated deities.

the big issue in my opinion is how awesome would be an initiate of "the lightbringers" (of course it may be less than 10 like the seven mothers but pretty sure some people will complain there is not this one, or this one)

so many "feats" were done in this quest, so many spells an initiate may learn... all of them usefull for an adventurer, would we have in the sartarite camp players who will choose any other cult than this one ?