B.Gor "man-hunter" ... dual-Initiate?

[g33k]

As we know, Babs has a dual-role:  Earth-Protector, Earth-Avenger.

As "Protector," the Axe Sisters will often be found protecting Earth-temples, and bodyguarding Earth-priestesses.

As "Avenger," she goes after anyone who looted or despoiled temples, attacked priestesses.  Also, notably, kinslayers & oathbreakers (I note FWIW that the "and rapists" element is gone from the core-book, and the image shows the goddess with a peplum of hands not ... "members."  OK, so the grognards leaned-in too hard on the "psycho man-hater" trope, so We Can't Have Nice Things; My Glorantha can still have the scary Gorii (I always thought that was reasonable, not psycho; plus it set up an interesting B.Gor / Thed tension); honestly, though, this isn't my main point.).

THE MAIN POINT:

There's a lot of scope for other non-combat stuff for B.Gor in the "Avenger" element.  Sometimes the offender needs to be found, hunted-down.

A cult of hunters -- Yinkin, perhaps, or Odayla -- seems like a natural pairing, tracking down bandits/etc (though Babs has "Track" on the Cult shortlist of skills, making the co-Cult seem less-useful; still, in some ways that only strengthens the argument that a dedicated "hunter" cult is a good fit, for the ancillary skills such as Scan & Survival).

In an urban context, the Truthy investigatory powers of a Lhankor Mhy lawspeaker could be invaluable, seeking out the guilty party from the untrackable masses.

Many times, dealing with ghosts & other spirits may make a Shaman's aptitudes key.

Now, a "Swiss-Army PC" -- multi-initiated to B.Gor/Yinkin/LM + also a Shaman -- would be ridiculously munchkin (and in neither the spirit nor the letter of the RAW), but maybe a dual-Cult Initiate might work.  Babs is "Friendly" to both Odayla & Yinkin (though only "Neutral" to LM).  P.275 of the RQG corebook only says the cults must be "compatible," but doesn't specify if "Friendly" is compatible-enough; let's say they are (Neutral may be a stretch).

As a "travelling hunter" (Yinkin/Odayla) they might not rouse suspicion (and further fleeing) when they catch up to the guilty party/ies.

Alternatively, a Shamanic type is also often a "wanderer;" and some spirits' oaths/bargains/taboos/geasa might well set a Shaman on a very "Babsy" path...

 

... I guess I'm kinda thinking out loud, here.  Looking for peoples' thoughts, suggestions, cautions, encouragements, etc.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

We have a new PC coming into our campaign who, at least tentatively, will be BG / Yinkin.  I think that's a reasonable combination.  Not sure how it will work in practice, but we will find out!

Note: the player is a bit of a mini-maxer, and really wanted Bear's Strength for use in combats, but we both agreed that Yinkin was a much better fit than Odalya for the character concept.  So we gave the PC a Bear's Strength rune matrix as a starting magic item.

I had a similar concept for an NPC who appeared for a few episodes.

[JRE]

I usually look first for associated deities, as they are the ones that may share shrines and would be the good candidates for dual initiation, though BG only has Ernalda and Maran Gor, which do not really fit in the concept. It may be better with the Earth pantheon book.

I see Yinkini as mostly loners, while Avenging Daughters, while they may be alone in a mission, actually are a part in the bigger Earth structure, so not so fitting as a lone hunter except in a very personal quest.

I envision them more straightforward, announcing publicly their mission and then casting Detect Enemies to see who may object, or pursue whoever starts running when they arrive. Play to your strengths.

[radmonger]

As a _character_ concept, you could have a hunter who decided that the standard Orlanthi punishment of exile didn't work all that well on other skilled deep hunters. So now they go out into the wilds, sometimes for seasons at a time, to hunt down the guilty.

As a _campaign_ concept, an Avenging Daughter comes to say Jonstown, pursing a bad guy. As a condition for her operating in the city, the Rex tasks a misfit group, led by an apprentice scribe, with the job of stopping her from killing anyone who doesn't need it.

[Shiningbrow]

I don't see the need for dual initiation. And I don't see any reason why you couldn't just start with a hunter occupation, but have Babs as the chosen cult - just create a background (not hard - perhaps one of the character's parents suffered - rape would be the obvious route, although some sort of oathbreaking which led to real hardship also works - and the daughter feels the need for revenge).

TBH, for me, the dual initiation thing for this just rings a bit too much like a D&D multiclassing. Especially since neither Yinkin nor Odayla really lend themselves to the manhunter/bountyhunter archetype.

 

As for the mention of LM and hunting, a sorcerer with Geomancy would be extremely useful in such a band of vigilantes.

 

[g33k]

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I don't see the need for dual initiation. And I don't see any reason why you couldn't just start with a hunter occupation, but have Babs as the chosen cult - just create a background (not hard - perhaps one of the character's parents suffered - rape would be the obvious route, although some sort of oathbreaking which led to real hardship also works - and the daughter feels the need for revenge).

I suppose the Hunter occupation works, though I admit I usually think of "occupations" as pairing with some relevant Cult magic; so most hunters will go Foundchild/Odayla/Yinkin &c... and what an amazing asset the "Identfy Scent" Rune Spell would be for the "manhunter"!

I think one could invent any number of Babs-relevant backgrounds, sure...  Could have been an attack on the Stead, or the local Temple, etc etc etc.

But IMG, sometimes the player's choice of Cult is not the character's choice/intention, per se...  They had another plan.
But then -- in the middle of the Initiation ceremony (which is essentially a mini-heroquest) -- they were called to a different service than they expected...

So one doesn't have to create the prior trauma to justify a Cult choice.

 

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

... TBH, for me, the dual initiation thing for this just rings a bit too much like a D&D multiclassing. ...

To the degree that a "Cult" in RQ has some parallels to a "Class" in D&D (and some parallels are there!) I think multiple cults  are  kinda like multiclassing.  But realize there's nothing in Glorantha that correspond's to a "one-level dip" or similar careful "builds" in D&D/PF/etc -- you're only in the Cult so long as you keep living up to the ideals (or at least legitimately trying-to).

I don't see this concept as being notably better or worse about it than most other "dual initiate" concepts.

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

... Especially since neither Yinkin nor Odayla really lend themselves to the manhunter/bountyhunter archetype.

Yinkini have a social aspect to them, though (Charm is a Cult skill; Glamour & Charisma are Cult magics).
I think Yinkin is the one that pretty clearly fits.
Not seeing it as well for Odayla or Foundchild.

[g33k]

18 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

...
Note: the player is a bit of a mini-maxer, and really wanted Bear's Strength for use in combats, but we both agreed that Yinkin was a much better fit than Odalya for the character concept.  So we gave the PC a Bear's Strength rune matrix as a starting magic item...

Odaylans are pretty tight with Yinkini, in both Cult's write-ups, so I think it's reasonable to say that the Yinkini inherited a magic-item from an Odaylan grandparent, aunt/uncle, or just a special favor from the Yinkini's master's best-bud the Odaylan runelevel (though honestly, I don't recall a Rune magic item as part of a starting-PC's stuff, only Spirit magic items).

Edited July 6, 2023 by g33k

[g33k]

On 7/6/2023 at 12:14 AM, JRE said:

I usually look first for associated deities, as they are the ones that may share shrines and would be the good candidates for dual initiation, though BG only has Ernalda and Maran Gor, which do not really fit in the concept. It may be better with the Earth pantheon book.

Maran Gor has nothing "police"-ish, AFAIK; though Ernalda -- who embodies social harmony &c -- could likely offer a fair bit of useful magic.  Interesting thought about the Earth Pantheon's book!
 

On 7/6/2023 at 12:14 AM, JRE said:

... I see Yinkini as mostly loners, while Avenging Daughters, while they may be alone in a mission, actually are a part in the bigger Earth structure, so not so fitting as a lone hunter except in a very personal quest ...

Mostly loners, sure.  But they do like their occasional socializing!

I'm thinking of this B.Gor a bit like the wandering marshal of the Old West... coming into town, looking for the criminal...

 

On 7/6/2023 at 12:14 AM, JRE said:

...

I envision them more straightforward, announcing publicly their mission and then casting Detect Enemies to see who may object, or pursue whoever starts running when they arrive. Play to your strengths.

Detect Enemies won't spot someone who just wants to escape from the suddenly-revealed Axe Sister... they don't want to attack her, they want to be as far away as possible!!!

Also, that sort of "honorable" stand-up challenge / duel mentality isn't IMHO quite right (or at least, not by default).  The person who earned the Axe Sister's attention has already demonstrated they aren't honorable, cannot be trusted, and don't deserve to be treated as if they were.

Edited July 11, 2023 by g33k

[Shiningbrow]

6 hours ago, g33k said:

But IMG, sometimes the player's choice of Cult is not the character's choice/intention, per se...  They had another plan.

This!!

Which is pretty much what I was trying to get at - players have this idea, but in-world, isn't that likely. However, we can all make up a backstory that could justify anything, really... want a half-dragonewt, half-mistress race troll - no problem! It was part of the dragonewts 'experience' in order to gain karma, and the troll needed to forge an alliance for some reason.

 

6 hours ago, g33k said:

So one doesn't have to create the prior trauma to justify a Cult choice.

Nooooo.... but one normally doesn't enter into Babeester Gor, the Avenger, lightly. Without the trauma, the only way I can reasonably make sense of it (which probably shows my lack of imagination) would be if they were born into the cult. But then, you'll lose Yinkin... (well, maybe not! Perhaps she got sick and tired of city life, and went out on her own into the forests and hills for a while).

 

6 hours ago, g33k said:

To the degree that a "Cult" in RQ has some parallels to a "Class" in D&D (and some parallels are there!) I think multiple cults  are  kinda like multiclassing.  But realize there's nothing in Glorantha that correspond's to a "one-level dip" or similar careful "builds" in D&D/PF/etc -- you're only in the Cult so long as you keep living up to the ideals (or at least legitimately trying-to).

Well, that's the point. If your character is 'dipping' into a cult just for the spells, then it's basically the same as a 1-3 level dip in D&D - especially if the cults aren't all that compatible (e.g., Babeester Gor & Odayla). There should be a *strong* religious reason for joining a cult to Initiate level (Lay Membership would be normal). After all, even though both Orlanth and Ernalda are hugely important in Sartar, most people only actually initiate into one of those, and remain at Lay level for the other.

(remember that other than the Rune Spells, associated cults can get skills and spirit magic cheaper, and friendly cults would just have easy access to them. So, your BG could still get training in either - for a reasonable price. So that begs the question - other than getting one's hands on Identify Scent, what's the actual reason for joining Yinkin?? (presuming that's the secondary cult). As @Rodney Dangerduck suggested, just give them a matrix... which is no problem, as the book is merely a guide! That's their heirloom...)

So, yes, your "legitimately trying to [live up to the ideals]" is really important.

 

6 hours ago, g33k said:

Detect Enemies won't spot someone who just wants to escape from the suddenly-revealed Axe Sister... they don't want to attack her, they want to be as far away as possible!!!

Then just add in Detect Oathbreakers (or whatever you're going for) -either Rune or Spirit (or both!!)

 

6 hours ago, g33k said:

I'm thinking of this B.Gor a bit like the wandering marshal of the Old West... coming into town, looking for the criminal...

But is the stead big enough for two of them??? That's the really important question here!

[French Desperate WindChild]

there are different things in my opinion

 

first, the cult role is as you describe. It means, for me, that the community of bab's sisters should have the skills to find the the truth

And noone says that one sister should have all the skills.

And noone says that sisters should not require  help from other more specialized cults.

 

If I had to build an "avenger" pc, I would probably not choose to find a second cult as soon as possible.

First I will decide what would be the priority:

- axe master (90+ skill, runespells, bladesharp and other spirit spells) or just good fighter (75+ skill, runespells, not figh spirit spells)

-tracker, guard, detective or diplomate (using occupation or personal skills, depending on the first target "axe master" or "good fighter", and with help of spirit magic if accessible... well detect ennemy and that's all ^^)

 

now I m a tracker ? I expect my temple to send me in mission with a clear named target. Of course my cult reputation and my intimidation skill will help me if my friends can't. Then my progression focus will be on investigation skills (i will become better fighter just by experience) and a shaman able to teach me some useful spells

not a tracker but a guard ? My role is to protect the temples, but the other specialists may need protection so as a axe master I will accompany them and do the final job. And if I want to follow the way of track and investigation, then my progression focus will be on these skills and a shaman able to teach me some useful spells

a detective ? maybe at some point if truth is important, in addition to improve my search, my insight and others skills I will join first as lay member (spirit spells and skills teachers !) and why not at the end of the end if I have not enough success LM cult or equivalent. (of course as detective i've got a good truth)

 

a diplomate ? Yes less good investigator than the detective but... with my relationships, my orate and bargain skills  and the power of the Earth temple I have not a lot of difficulties to "hire" hunters, scholars and other to do the job. At the end, it will be me who will cut the heads (or other thing...) My progression focus will be on loyalties, favors

 

 

so somewhere, I (player) expect my GM to build/adapt adventures to my character when the scenario is about babeester. As for any other pc of course.

As a GM it is what I do, what are the pcs ? are they powerful enough (in all senses) to solve a scenario ?

Should I adapt the opponents skills ? Should I propose directly some npc help if I know there is a lack of skills in the party ?

Or, because I know the players, I bet that they will, by themselves require help in return of some loyalty / oath / or i don't know ?

 

 

note that I don't say "dual initiation is bad" just that there are some roleplay alternative I consider nice to explore before the "easy way" of rune spell

[JRE]

We all know that the lone Marshal wandering the frontier bringing Justice Truth is clearly Humakt's territory. I always see BG as part of a system of two triads, the fertile and unfertile Maiden - Mother - Crone triads, though we will see how it is developed in the Earth pantheon book. BG is the Maiden of the Death triad, so her path leads to Maran Gor and Ty Kora Tek, though unlike the others she still could take the Ernalda-Asrelia path, though it will not be easy, unless her Death is low and she has been focusing on Earth rune affinity. Although it is not foreordained, that means, for me, that the cultists are not as self-reliant and isolated as the Humakti, because usually they have access to specialists, as said above. If the mission requires someone with people skills, maybe an old but still hale Asrelia priestess may join to supply additional skills and magic, or one of Mom's husbands may be pressured to join to help, with needed magic or skills. A quite different community than Humakt's dudebros.

One fights because he is good at it, and wants to be even better. The other fights because it is necessary, and some people merit a whooping, or a traumatic castration, or to be annihilated, and nobody else can do it. One spurned his family, the other is first and foremost a daughter.

All of this coming from a male, so it certainly needs a female point of view.

[DrGoth]

4 hours ago, JRE said:

We all know that the lone Marshal wandering the frontier bringing Justice Truth is clearly Humakt's territory. I always see BG as part of a system of two triads, the fertile and unfertile Maiden - Mother - Crone triads, though we will see how it is developed in the Earth pantheon book. BG is the Maiden of the Death triad, so her path leads to Maran Gor and Ty Kora Tek, though unlike the others she still could take the Ernalda-Asrelia path, though it will not be easy, unless her Death is low and she has been focusing on Earth rune affinity. Although it is not foreordained, that means, for me, that the cultists are not as self-reliant and isolated as the Humakti, because usually they have access to specialists, as said above. If the mission requires someone with people skills, maybe an old but still hale Asrelia priestess may join to supply additional skills and magic, or one of Mom's husbands may be pressured to join to help, with needed magic or skills. A quite different community than Humakt's dudebros.

One fights because he is good at it, and wants to be even better. The other fights because it is necessary, and some people merit a whooping, or a traumatic castration, or to be annihilated, and nobody else can do it. One spurned his family, the other is first and foremost a daughter.

All of this coming from a male, so it certainly needs a female point of view.

BG didn't cut herself off from family - that's Humakt's area.  So, on the model of cultists following in the path of their deity, a BG cultist won't be as isolated as a Humakti. Part of her is the protector, which implies some sort of bond with the protected. Humakt doesn't have that world view.

And really, do we want the cults to mirror each other? 😄

[jajagappa]

21 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Without the trauma, the only way I can reasonably make sense of it (which probably shows my lack of imagination) would be if they were born into the cult.

Orphans. As Defenders of the Earth, the Axe temples will take in, protect, and raise orphans. They will be raised within and known to the cult, and can naturally become initiates without a specific trauma. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

7 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Orphans. As Defenders of the Earth, the Axe temples will take in, protect, and raise orphans. They will be raised within and known to the cult, and can naturally become initiates without a specific trauma. 

by the way, it is a trauma too 🙂

 

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

by the way, it is a trauma too 🙂

Yes, you are right! Had more in mind the foundling left at the temple, but there's a full range of traumatic events leading to being an orphan.

[DrGoth]

I've always thought of the stereotypical BG cultist as someone who experiences great loss. BUt ther emust be many other types as well. Including those who are called at initiation, because that's the right thing for them.

[kara]

In the game I currently run there is a PC who was Ernaldan, with a child from pregame. But we are playing prior to Starbrow's Rebellion and they are experiencing more & more of the events building up the pressure till it blows in 1613. The character was always active in the militia and made the move across to Babeester Gor as her way to help the Colymar. Regret at what she's leaving behind but determination to assist her clan & temple (Ernaldori so heavily Earth cultic) as best she can. Thus no individual trauma but part of the collective response.

Note that, as a woman, I've never been wholly comfortable with the older versions of Babeestor Gor cultists as stereotypically portrayed & written about (by men). They said more about those men than about Glorantha to my mind.

So in my game I have portrayed Babeestor Gor cultists as being no more extreme than Humakti cultists. And far more highly regarded by the Clearwine Earth Temple.

 

Edited July 9, 2023 by kara

[g33k]

3 hours ago, kara said:

... Note that, as a woman, I've never been wholly comfortable with the older versions of Babeestor Gor cultists as stereotypically portrayed & written about (by men). They said more about those men than about Glorantha to my mind. ...

If you're talking about the "berserk psycho man-hater" sorts of ideas... yeah, I can only apologize to you for some others of my gender...

I've always been willing to say that was part of  B.Gor (as in, at least 1 B.Gorii was that way (or had been, historically)), that it was acceptable (she's got the Berserk Rune-spell after all, and a "Hate()" Passion, as elements of the Cult).

But equally-so the skilled & disciplined warrior, in the mode of Athena; probably much MORE so, in fact, given how many B.Gor are Temple Guardians -- can't have them going crazy on random passers-by!

And (as I'm discussing in this thread) the "hunter" and the "law-enforcement"/"lone ranger" tropes are also B.Gor.

And several others.

 

[Qizilbashwoman]

14 hours ago, kara said:

in my game I have portrayed Babeestor Gor cultists as being no more extreme than Humakti cultists.

for real, they're terrifying but a coherent part of the Earth system, but Humakti are just wandering Death ronins. Gorians are at least part of an established social system with a clearly-defined social role; Humakti cultists are, in the end, just unmoored Death cultists. Even Storm Bull cultists are likely more disruptive.

[French Desperate WindChild]

15 hours ago, kara said:

So in my game I have portrayed Babeestor Gor cultists as being no more extreme than Humakti cultists. And far more highly regarded by the Clearwine Earth Temple.

of course our glorantha may vary 🙂

in my own version the cult has the two faces,

one is more like humakti, serious, intransigent and fair death bringer. They are even able to be diplomat, awesome ! The first one is the group with Axe trance spell

but the second one is more like fanatic storm bullers (not all storm bullers, those who are really bullers), enraged, violent, and almost random death bringer.( don't know who is the guilty, kill all the village, daka fal will judge them). The second one  is the group with berserker spell.

 

Of course you will find people who are a "merge" : a two faces character (berserker + axe trance) but the spells  are incompatible, they have to choose what they are when they "call" their goddess

 

I use spells in my answer bacause it helps me what can be the followers. They are followers because they have in their "nature" what is described by the spells. The spell doesn't bring something new, different from the worshipper, but "exploits" and godly increases the nature of the caster (aka her runes)

 

it is fine for me (however i m a man so maybe some unconscious bias), to have dirty, violent and unfair women warrior (sub)cult. That should not be a male monopoly

(yes storm bull is mixed, but what the % of people who first think about a woman when hearing "you see a storm bull worshiper")

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

but the second one is more like fanatic storm bullers (not all storm bullers, those who are really bullers), enraged, violent, and almost random death bringer.( don't know who is the guilty, kill all the village, daka fal will judge them). The second one  is the group with berserker spell

Why would society allow these breakers of sacred Hospitality to live?  If somebody like that, whether BG, SB, or Humakti, visits Apple Lane, where my PC is Thane, they either leave quickly or not at all.

I agree with @kara: the psycho BG are way over the top and frankly unplayable.  Why would other PCs, especially male, ever adventure with them?

Edited July 10, 2023 by Rodney Dangerduck

[g33k]

On 7/10/2023 at 7:46 AM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Why would society allow these breakers of sacred Hospitality to live?  If somebody like that, whether BG, SB, or Humakti, visits Apple Lane, where my PC is Thane, they either leave quickly or not at all.

<shugs>

not my cuppa; but the violent & antisocial SB is a core concept, and has been since at least Cults of Prax., as one of the PC'able Cults.
Some people really like to play 'em, & it very much is their "cuppa."

"Why would society allow these breakers of sacred Hospitality..."
I'm away from my books, so I can't quote it exactly, but CoP pretty-explicitly said "because they are so necessary in the fight against Chaos."

Edited July 11, 2023 by g33k

[Shiningbrow]

On 7/10/2023 at 10:46 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Why would society allow these breakers of sacred Hospitality to live? 

I presume, when someone has offended the Earth Temple in such a way, then the laws of hospitality may no longer apply. Although, I can see that the local thane may not be aware of this, and hence the BG should notify said thane when they first get there.

 

Granted, there are a number of presumptions in the above.

 

Personally, I didn't have the same issue that @kara mentions above, just as I didn't with the stereotypical Stormbull. I would even suggest that BG as a cult in general would be happy to promulgate that stereotype in many places, just as I'm sure Humaktis and Stormbullies do. That doesn't mean there wouldn't be exceptions (even possibly the majority - after all, stereotypes are rarely reflective of a majority that's actually been encountered and understood).

(Note - if we follow this path, then there must be kind, loving, caring and supporting Maran Gorites who wouldn't harm a fly (metaphorically) as well. )

[JRE]

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

(Note - if we follow this path, then there must be kind, loving, caring and supporting Maran Gorites who wouldn't harm a fly (metaphorically) as well. )

Of course, they are Ernaldans.

I think in Gloranthat there is a lot of transfer between associated cults, much easier than what usually happens with PCs. So Ernaldans in times of conflict and war may (even if it is only a small fraction) transfer to Maran Gor, and use their accumulated Runepower on Gorite spells. Once the bad times pass, most return to the fertile bosom of Ernalda, though a few will stay with Maran, a reminder of the destructive power of the Earth, and keeping the powerful magics that will still be needed in the future. 

In the same way, many Babeester Gor Axe maidens may switch later to Ernalda (if Death is not strong in them) or Maran Gor, though there will be some that will go directly from the maiden to the crone, either Ty Kora Tek or Asrelia. 

I expect that will be part of the Earth pantheon book, including also what is the role of Voria as the Life alternative to Babeester Gor, though it seems many of her place is taken by Ernalda, at least at the initiate level, but also what to do with devotees without kids but not taking the Death path.

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, JRE said:

Of course, they are Ernaldans.

I think in Gloranthat there is a lot of transfer between associated cults, much easier than what usually happens with PCs. So Ernaldans in times of conflict and war may (even if it is only a small fraction) transfer to Maran Gor, and use their accumulated Runepower on Gorite spells. Once the bad times pass, most return to the fertile bosom of Ernalda, though a few will stay with Maran, a reminder of the destructive power of the Earth, and keeping the powerful magics that will still be needed in the future. 

In the same way, many Babeester Gor Axe maidens may switch later to Ernalda (if Death is not strong in them) or Maran Gor, though there will be some that will go directly from the maiden to the crone, either Ty Kora Tek or Asrelia. 

I expect that will be part of the Earth pantheon book, including also what is the role of Voria as the Life alternative to Babeester Gor, though it seems many of her place is taken by Ernalda, at least at the initiate level, but also what to do with devotees without kids but not taking the Death path.

Hmmm... I'm not so ok with this pick-up/put-down of cults so easily. Not with they way cults are currently depicted.

Now, if there was another level between Initiate and Rune Level (as has been suggested elsewhere), perhaps... This next step up (call it 'Devotee') would have access to deeper mysteries and secrets than a basic Initiate. It would also make access to some of the more powerful spells more limited (no longer does "every Orlanthi farmer have a Lightning" type of argument).

 

But this is going too far off-topic ....