B.Gor "man-hunter" ... dual-Initiate?

[mfbrandi]

7 hours ago, JRE said:

what to do with devotees without kids but not taking the Death path

Hmm … given the set up of Life/Fertility vs. Death/Separation in rigid relation, can we not see those whose path doesn’t take them to reproduction (whether by choice or not) as on a “death path”?

That is, do we have to see the death path as a path only for killers? I don’t say this to knock the childless — my weakness would more likely be to sneer at the “breeders” — but to suggest a legitimate path for non-breeder non-murderers. They are terminating a line of descent, standing apart from (or at the edge of) a network of family relations. But that is OK, and it doesn’t have to be a violent thing.

[YGWV and all that.]

[g33k]

On 7/12/2023 at 11:44 AM, mfbrandi said:

... suggest a legitimate path for non-breeder non-murderers. They are terminating a line of descent ... But that is OK, and it doesn’t have to be a violent thing. ..

Very Aldryami-Gardener.

And IIRC the B.Gor are known & welcome within the Aldryami Pantheon.

[g33k]

BTW -- a big  thank you!  to everyone who has engaged & given me food for thought... "food" did I say?  A veritable FEAST!  😁  

(but please don't let this be a fin on all the contributions!)

 

[davecake]

On 7/6/2023 at 10:49 AM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Note: the player is a bit of a mini-maxer, and really wanted Bear's Strength for use in combats,

A player who thinks that Babeester Gor doesn’t have enough good combat magic! When they are literally the cult with the best combat magic in the game! 
You were much more accommodating to them than I would have been, I’d just point out to them that the BG cult already grants the Strength spirit magic spell, and cults are more than a way to get cool spells. 

I do think a Babeester Gor and the idea of being a hunter are compatible, and my own Babeester Gor PC worked as a hunter for some years when the clan was too poor to support her as a professional warrior. But I’d think more Foundchild than Yinkin or Odayla (though she did not join another cult). I think few BG cultists are very sociable. 

There certainly are multiple ways to approach a BG, they are not all berserkers (or all careful hunters of men) for sure. But they are all sacred killers who must be willing to kill. 

On 7/8/2023 at 8:58 AM, jajagappa said:

Orphans. As Defenders of the Earth, the Axe temples will take in, protect, and raise orphans. They will be raised within and known to the cult, and can naturally become initiates without a specific trauma. 

There are relatively few dedicated Babeester Gor temples, usually they are part of Earth temple complexes - and it’s the Ernalda cult that takes in orphans. 
Including the the ones that are ‘mythic’ orphans but not actual ones, the children of Babeester Gor cultists who accidentally get pregnant (possibly in an incident involving a lot of beer) but must reject the child and give them to be raised by the temple. 
 

FWIW, I do think it is common to transfer between Earth cults, but not in the way suggested. I think it is very rare to move ‘horizontally’ between the Malign and Benign Earth cults (and most likely a one way change as a result of deep trauma and loss). But it’s considered normal to transfer ‘vertically’ as you age, just few people get very involved in Voria. But it’s the normal way for people to join Ty Kora Tek or Asrelia, by aging into it after being an initiate of a different cult earlier in life. 

[davecake]

On 7/13/2023 at 2:44 AM, mfbrandi said:

but to suggest a legitimate path for non-breeder non-murderers.

Their are cults besides Ernalda and Babeester Gor. Killing is core to Babeester Gor, reproduction is core to Ernalda. 
The Earth Goddesses book will include Esrola and the other grain/land goddesses.  I’d quite like to see the cults of lesser Earth goddesses like Delaeo or Delaina developed more (most likely to be as sub-cults of Ernalda), which could focus less on motherhood. 
But Ernalda clearly is intended to have reproduction at its core, and Babeester Gor is for killers. 

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

There are relatively few dedicated Babeester Gor temples, usually they are part of Earth temple complexes - and it’s the Ernalda cult that takes in orphans. 

True that they are usually part of an Earth temple complex. But why assume BG cannot or would not look after them, too? They are Defenders of the Earth, and who better than the orphans. (Not saying there wouldn't be Ernalda, or Asrelia, or others tending to orphans, but I would not dismiss BG here.)

56 minutes ago, davecake said:

and Babeester Gor is for killers.

I think that's too narrow a focus. It's absolutely part of it, and not shied away from, but they are guardians as well as avengers.

[French Desperate WindChild]

5 hours ago, davecake said:

A player who thinks that Babeester Gor doesn’t have enough good combat magic! When they are literally the cult with the best combat magic in the game! 

I agree so fully !

from a game design perspective Bab's = 80% Humakt + 80% Storm bull... what else ?! (figures are just figure, no math there 😛 )

 

5 hours ago, davecake said:

I do think a Babeester Gor and the idea of being a hunter are compatible, and my own Babeester Gor PC worked as a hunter for some years when the clan was too poor to support her as a professional warrior. But I’d think more Foundchild than Yinkin or Odayla (though she did not join another cult). I think few BG cultists are very sociable. 

for me Yinkin should be excluded, but as you say, a majority of Bab's is not very sociable. So, imo, Odayla could be a good choice (the bear walking alone).  I would see this nice girl wandering the forests, avenger of the wild earth. But then.. why visiting Pavis, working for a merchant or things like that ( =adventurers) ?

I would ask a Earth roll every session or give a -10% penalty if she works for other than the wild.

 

5 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I think that's too narrow a focus. It's absolutely part of it, and not shied away from, but they are guardians as well as avengers.

Quote

 

Oh yes, you are the novice everyone is talking about... And you think we are too violent.... little Voria... haha, you wanted to questions the thieves, do you ? and you scolded my women for that ? Let me remember who you are facing... We are the guardians of the Earth. We are her avengers.

Your... "friends" did profane the temple, the Earth's heart... We spotted them, we blocked them, we fought them. And with their blood we cleansed their dirty footsteps.

Don't worry, you don't know who sent them, that's true... But when people will know what we did with them... haha it will be hard to hire a second team.

I would appreciate to shake your hand as asign of peace but... their blood is not yet dried and I would not like to stain your so clean suit. So go away, and let us protect your little pristine ha.. privileges

 

 

[JRE]

This may of course change a lot with the pantheon book.

I may be reading too much on labels, but for me there are two main kinds of Babeester Gor cultists. Those with a high Death affinity, and those with a high Earth affinity. But all of them are Daughters. If Death is your calling, you will have to follow the path of Blasted earth, but if you are more a protectress of the Earth than a killer, I allow them to change their focus. It may be pregnancy. It may be maturity, a partner, a near death experience, but people do change, and the cults must reflect this, specially a cult whose adherents are treated funtionally as young adults, even if they are grizzled veterans. From what we have seen Orlanth is set up to embrace both the youthful adventurous and the mature thunderous, while the Earth has a different set up. We already know that internal politics has priestesses forced to change to Asrelia or Ty Kora Tek in Esrolia, as that keeps them from being Queens (becoming Dowager Queens, I suppose), a less bloody option for the losers in a conflict. It is also MGF for me to have the possibility, specially after several years of war, that a good number of Ernaldans did not go through the express way of Voria, kids, husbands, priestess, but a more convoluted path, including a high axe skill, combat spirit magic, tattoos and scars. And most likely at least a kid, even if she is now a temple orphan.

I would expect the titular Hunter as someone with high Death, which would help with the Hunter cult as well, so that is already a lonelier path. As said above it seems a bit minimaxing, actually, but what I like about Glorantha is that most heroines are actually minimaxers as well, those ambitious and ruthless enough to sacrifice almost everything for hero power.

On a related basis, I see most Axe Maidens, unless in a pure BG temple, as dutifully subservient to their elders, considering as such the other priestesses in the complex. Maran Gor however is not subservient to anyone, which is already a personal and social benefit for an Axe Maiden who is fed up with all those scheming Ernaldans, their nosy husbands and noisy children.

As I said before, as a GM I only normally allow double initiation to cults who are associated. BG only associates are Ernalda and Maran Gor. Which means that if you are willing to work a little extra, you can have a mature priestess that still keeps her combat magics. That would be the minimaxer way, as she would have two runepools, while a natural pantheon progression would have just one runepool.

And she gets to ride a dinosaur while cutting up enemies with a poleaxe...

[radmonger]

As I understand it, dual initiation is common in Sartarite cities. Typically, one initiation represents your kin ( e..g. clan or city), and the other your profession (e.g. a guild or regiment). So a blacksmith initiate of Gustbran is very likely to be also an Orlanth initiate of whatever clan.

This does, as the rules specify, take twice as much time, money and energy as being an initiate  of one cult. So it is also common for one or the other allegiances to drop down to lay member. Sometimes almost everyone does this, and the guild, or indeed clan, withers to being just a secular organisation providing no Rune magic.

Of course, even in cities, most men are farmers; for them the Orlanth cult is effectively both clan and guild. 

Yinkin and Odayla are mostly clan-based cults, often filling the niche of an alternate route to status for those who don't do well in their adulthood initiation ordeal. There may also be worshiped by what are in effect a 'hunters guild' for specialist hunters, trackers and scouts.

Babeestor Gor can be a kin-based cult, for those who are brought up in one of the great earth temple complexes. it is also, especially in Esrolia, affiliated with the mercenaries guild, and patron of several regiments.

 

[Shiningbrow]

12 hours ago, radmonger said:

As I understand it, dual initiation is common in Sartarite cities. Typically, one initiation represents your kin ( e..g. clan or city), and the other your profession (e.g. a guild or regiment). So a blacksmith initiate of Gustbran is very likely to be also an Orlanth initiate of whatever clan.

This does, as the rules specify, take twice as much time, money and energy as being an initiate  of one cult. So it is also common for one or the other allegiances to drop down to lay member. Sometimes almost everyone does this, and the guild, or indeed clan, withers to being just a secular organisation providing no Rune magic.

Of course, even in cities, most men are farmers; for them the Orlanth cult is effectively both clan and guild. 

Yinkin and Odayla are mostly clan-based cults, often filling the niche of an alternate route to status for those who don't do well in their adulthood initiation ordeal. There may also be worshiped by what are in effect a 'hunters guild' for specialist hunters, trackers and scouts.

Babeestor Gor can be a kin-based cult, for those who are brought up in one of the great earth temple complexes. it is also, especially in Esrolia, affiliated with the mercenaries guild, and patron of several regiments.

 

IMO, I would see dual initiation as being 'common', as you said, but not typical. So, if I had to put a figure on it, I'd say only about 20% of adults will have initiated into more than one cult (while virtually everyone is a Lay Member of at least 2 or more additional cults).

Part of the reason for this 20% is the lack of need to do so, as well as the expenditures involved (as you mentioned - time, money, POW).

Orlanth & Gustbran? Sure! (actually, Orlanth and many/most others). However, I'm not so sure that many would dual initiate into both Orlanth and Issaries or LM - no real need to. (which is why I think adulthood initiation is different to cult initiation - or the need for a higher level of initiate!)

While Ernaldan initiation alone will be fine for most, Ernalda & BG also makes perfect sense (and there's no reason not to have high in both Earth and Death - the core rules make it very easy to have 80% in both at character creation). BG and Yinkin - less so.

[davecake]

On 7/14/2023 at 10:14 AM, jajagappa said:

True that they are usually part of an Earth temple complex. But why assume BG cannot or would not look after them, too?

In a sense they do, as they are part of the temple complex.  But their role in looking after them is as defender. The BG cultists have to give up a role as mother/parent even to their own children. Initiation to BG involves giving up that part of life. It’s a specific rule of the cult. They can be distant aunts or cousins, but not nurturers. 
(this will clearer when the Earth cults book is out). 
 

On 7/14/2023 at 10:14 AM, jajagappa said:

I think that's too narrow a focus. It's absolutely part of it, and not shied away from, but they are guardians as well as avengers.

Babeestor Gor is a Death cult. Their role is as killers of those who break oaths - this includes guarding temples, but guardians who are prepared to use lethal force. Guarding is one of the many roles the BGs have, but that’s more like one of the tasks they might have - a BG who only guards and never seeks out oathbroakers is like a Storm Bull who only guards against Chaos but never goes to fight it, one who doesn’t really do the core task of the cult. 

[davecake]

On 7/14/2023 at 10:14 AM, jajagappa said:

True that they are usually part of an Earth temple complex. But why assume BG cannot or would not look after them, too?

In a sense they do, as they are part of the temple complex.  But their role in looking after them is as defender. The BG cultists have to give up a role as mother/parent even to their own children. Initiation to BG involves giving up that part of life. It’s a specific rule of the cult. They can be distant aunts or cousins, but not nurturers. 
(this will clearer when the Earth cults book is out). 
 

On 7/14/2023 at 10:14 AM, jajagappa said:

I think that's too narrow a focus. It's absolutely part of it, and not shied away from, but they are guardians as well as avengers.

Babeestor Gor is a Death cult - but more than that, their core role is as killers of those who break oaths - this includes guarding temples, but guardians who are prepared to use lethal force. Guarding is one of the many roles the BGs have, but that’s more like one of the tasks they might have, rather than a professional specialty - a BG who only guards and never seeks out oathbroakers is like a Storm Bull who only guards against Chaos but never goes to fight it, one who doesn’t really do the core task of the cult. 

[davecake]

On 7/7/2023 at 2:32 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

First I will decide what would be the priority:

- axe master (90+ skill, runespells, bladesharp and other spirit spells) or just good fighter (75+ skill, runespells, not figh spirit spells)

-tracker, guard, detective or diplomate (using occupation or personal skills, depending on the first target "axe master" or "good fighter", and with help of spirit magic if accessible... well detect ennemy and that's all ^^)

If you have a BG character who is not focused on skills for fighting and/or Search, Track, Listen, you are making a character that doesn’t benefit from the cult, and is unlikely to advance within it, and is seemingly not that interested in its core passions and function. It’s fine to be more focussed on the tracking them down part, or consider yourself more the scout than the fighter part of a military group or hunter team, but a diplomat sounds very much like a character that is in a different cult with almost opposite nature, and maybe sometimes hangs out with Babeester Gor members. 
 

On 7/12/2023 at 8:01 PM, Shiningbrow said:

Now, if there was another level between Initiate and Rune Level (as has been suggested elsewhere),

While interesting to consider (and valid for Ernalda, who has God Talkers), I don’t think it’s the case for BG. (It was not in drafts of the Earth cults)
 

On 7/12/2023 at 6:48 PM, JRE said:

In the same way, many Babeester Gor Axe maidens may switch later to Ernalda (if Death is not strong in them)

BG axe maidens who are not strong with Death are only marginally more likely than Humakti who are not strong with Death. So, while not ruling it out as something that might happen due to extraordinary circumstances, it’s not something that normally happens. 

[Joerg]

A  lone hunter could still have an allied spirit adept at tracking by various means. Otherwise, a Ranger and Tonto combo might be possible, with a sidekick gifted in tracking and in making weird trouble. Not that having a Eurmali sidekick is mandatory for an initiate of Babeester, but would it be unusual?

[French Desperate WindChild]

5 hours ago, davecake said:

If you have a BG character who is not focused on skills for fighting and/or Search, Track, Listen, you are making a character that doesn’t benefit from the cult, and is unlikely to advance within it, and is seemingly not that interested in its core passions and function

of course however what I say is just to decide if i must have 90 in axe skill or "just" 75% (and more if I can)

See the pregen Harmast, change a little bit some attributes and skills (axe, vs sword) and now "she" is a "good" diplomat for BG, and a very good fighter too. A rude community always needs a kind of buffer with it and her mother temple or the outsiders. Just in case of .... accident

[JRE]

As I indicated, it may all change with the cults book, but as written, a Babeester Gor initiate with 30% Death is workable, and probably an interesting character, as she can use Earth to cast her Rune Magic. As this is the RQ forum, for me the rules have priority on the world. Obviously that would be someone who is more focused in guarding than killing, but I wonder how many oathbreakers need hunting normally every year? Rapists probably a few more, and in Dragon Pass possibly more problematic as they will be quite likely part of a military unit or deserters.

If we consider that 90% of initiates do not make Rune level, it is not so problematic that many of the initiates, specially those that join as temple orphans, rather than due to trauma or special initiation, do not have a high Death affinity. They do their years, never progressing and then IMG, they move on. Whether it is Ernalda, Maran, or maybe even Asrelia or Ty Kora Tek, will depend on the character and her personal story, as well as the temple and its specific needs.

[Rob Darvall]

11 hours ago, davecake said:

Babeestor Gor is a Death cult - but more than that, their core role is as killers of those who break oaths - this includes guarding temples, but guardians who are prepared to use lethal force. Guarding is one of the many roles the BGs have, but that’s more like one of the tasks they might have, rather than a professional specialty - a BG who only guards and never seeks out oathbroakers is like a Storm Bull who only guards against Chaos but never goes to fight it, one who doesn’t really do the core task of the cult. 

Alternatively Babeester Gor guards the Earth and the initiates are her tools within time. So if the initiate is never called to hunt down an oathbreaker that is the will of the Goddess.
Unlike Humakt, for whom death IS the purpose, Babeester Gor has people killed for specific reasons. IMG at least, a Babeester Gorite must be called to hunt down and kill people (as opposed to defending her person, honour, or the temple). Hunting oathbreakers, defilers, etc. is a religious ritual, embarked on as seriously as an unfamiliar heroquest. Just as most other worshippers will never stray from the standard weekly temple rituals, many Gorites may never engage with such a quest. Being a random murder machine is either a desperation tactic in defense of the earth, or a serious slide toward chaos (as is any abuse of mythic power).

For mine, this also addresses some of the older depictions of these cultists:

What we were given is the face the cult presents to the world. Death 90%, sure, but Intimidation at 175% prevents a whole lot more problems. The older images stress just how FRIGHTENING these people are. After all, the temple is defended if most would-be attackers walk the other way. A guarantee of some serious-minded berserk hunting you across Sartar to take your goolies as a trophy may cause many to question their life choices. Particularly as said berserk has the physical and mythic backing of the biggest network on the lozenge.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Rob Darvall

[French Desperate WindChild]

26 minutes ago, Rob Darvall said:

Death 90%, sure, but Intimidation at 175% prevents a whole lot more problems. The older images stress just how FRIGHTENING these people are. After all, the temple is defended if most would-be attackers walk the other way.

exactly

they are not all murderer, psychopath or thing like that. Oh of course, among them you may find some madness, or less crazy "just berserker"  (because some are) but the main point, fot the more rational of them (including my "diplomat") is dissuasion. If you try see what we will do. You don't want to meet us.

Violence is always an option to solve a problem for wind, sure, and earth has other ways. Bab's other way may be violence to prevent problems.

However the goddess herself can be crazy too. So that's not all white or all black. This more between dirty brown and shiny red.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

6 hours ago, JRE said:

a Babeester Gor initiate with 30% Death is workable, and probably an interesting character, as she can use Earth to cast her Rune Magic

Several of the better spells, like Ax Trance, Berserker, and Slash, do not use Earth.  A BG at just 30% Death will face serious problems casting these spells.

[Shiningbrow]

6 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

exactly

they are not all murderer, psychopath or thing like that. Oh of course, among them you may find some madness, or less crazy "just berserker"  (because some are) but the main point, fot the more rational of them (including my "diplomat") is dissuasion. If you try see what we will do. You don't want to meet us.

Violence is always an option to solve a problem for wind, sure, and earth has other ways. Bab's other way may be violence to prevent problems.

However the goddess herself can be crazy too. So that's not all white or all black. This more between dirty brown and shiny red.

 

7 hours ago, Rob Darvall said:

Hunting oathbreakers, defilers, etc. is a religious ritual, embarked on as seriously as an unfamiliar heroquest.

I wouldn't call it an "unfamiliar" heroquest - but one of the central ones to her mythology.

 

So, how would you handle someone calling upon a BG for assistance in hunting down an oathbreaker - if that BG hasn't studied the arts of war, and has a low Death rating? Is she given a free pass to go find someone else to do it for her?

Personally, I think that would be dishonouring her Goddess.

[French Desperate WindChild]

19 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

So, how would you handle someone calling upon a BG for assistance in hunting down an oathbreaker - if that BG hasn't studied the arts of war, and has a low Death rating? Is she given a free pass to go find someone else to do it for her?

Personally, I think that would be dishonouring her Goddess.

first... she is not alone, so she can work with her sisters

secondly... she is not alone, so she can learn from her sisters and become a better fighter.

Maybe she could not call some of Bab's powers because she is not "made" for that (aka she has lows rune to cast some spells) but she can be a good warrior in any case. If she has bad rate in Death and Beast (so no axe transe and no berserk) she has at least two options: 

- become a support (heal, etc...) able to fight with her skills and spirit magic (like an ernaldan fighter, but sharing Babeester values )

- be supported by her sisters (Berserker is distant spell) if she has to become berserk.

 

Now if I had a pc with low death rate in a death cult, I would, as player (or recommand as gm) to study the mysteries of the goddess. the PC has a long way but, living in a temple (or earth temple section) dedicated to death, participating in death rituals, etc... of course it changes you. Not for game optimization (cast spells) but just because "it should be" (and of course there are exceptions but these should be played by both pc - how to resist - and GM - how sisters react -

[mfbrandi]

14 hours ago, JRE said:

a Babeester Gor initiate with 30% Death is workable, and probably an interesting character

Indeed, and also — if opposed power runes sum to 100% — we would certainly expect there to be initiates with <= 50% in one of their cult’s power runes:

  Yelm

  Krarsht

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Indeed, and also — if opposed power runes sum to 100% — we would certainly expect there to be initiates with <= 50% in one of their cult’s power runes:

  Yelm

  Krarsht

Yelm cultists love the idea of Illumination - little wonder here.

[mfbrandi]

5 minutes ago, Joerg said:

little wonder here

No wonder at all and none claimed.

[JRE]

Once again I was referring to the bulk of the initiates, those that may have 1 or 2 points in their runepools, and usually will reserve them for emergencies, such as Heal Wound , Shield, Spirit Block or Dismiss Magic in a real fight, and focus on their Bladesharp, Demoralize and other spirit magic in combat. In the same way, they may accompany an Oathbreaker's hunting party, but they will never be the focus of it, as that will be the role of those in the fast track for Rune level, and probably the kind of test they have to complete to proceed.

My Glorantha still has most things in a gaussian curve, so the few people with very high affinities will be in the cults fast track. BG initiates will be obviously skewed towards Death and Earth, but more on Earth as most of the temples are first Earth temples. Life will be stronger than Death, which means getting good candidates will be difficult, except in conflict prone areas, such as the Shaker temple, that does have a bigger focus on Death than most.

The 30% was probably an exaggeration, though it is possible in the rules. Someone with 70% life will be more useful in Voria as she will then specialize on life giving tasks. But what do you do with those with 40-60% affinity?