Can a Humakti and a Lanbril ever be mates?

[ChrisWentWhere]

I know, I know, pretty sure the answer is a big fat no. But I have ended up through my own folly with the situation where a devious Lanbril PC has infiltrated the militia (a bit like Infernal Affairs but in Prax not Hong Kong...) and 'befriended' if that is the term a hulking great Humakti. They have been through a lot and have a degree of loyalty (well as far as the Humakti knows anyway...). Now the Lanbril wants to use the Humakti knowingly on a job and my basic response is don't be daft. The Ring of Lanbril will only let initiates or lay members on a job. I know what the next question will be: can he become a lay member. My inclination is that will probably result in a visit from the spirit of reprisal...I have had a look through the Cult Compendium and it says:

"Due to Lanbril’s success in concealing his Godtime activities, most cults embodying the Truth Rune are his enemies." 

Pretty conclusive. But then it says in the Cult Compatibility Chart (RQ Companion) that the attitude of Humakt to Lanbril is Neutral (although the attitude of Lanbril to Humakt is Hostile...). Or have I read that wrong?

The other PC is an Issaries merchant. So yeah. more of the same... 

Cheers

[metcalph]

Lanbril's attitude towards Humakt is likely coloured by Humakt killing his pappy and everybody treating him like shit as a result.  But that really only matters if you want to be a devout Lanbrili which is kinda of a contradiction in terms.  The best known Lanbrili is one Black Fang who seems to have not been very pious in that he's better known for being associated with another mysterious spirit.

So it's possible for a Lanbrili and a Humakti to be friends.  The Lanbrili might even have a Humakti as a bodyguard.  The only nicety that needs to be observed is that the Lanbrili doesn't shit where he eats...

 

[ChrisWentWhere]

Yeah I wasn't really worrying about what the Lanbrili thought I assumed a degree of 'moral flexibility' on their part. It is what the Humakti thinks that matters (isn't it always...)!

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

6 hours ago, ChrisWentWhere said:

The Ring of Lanbril will only let initiates or lay members on a job

Get the Humakti friend to kill the members of the Ring.  Problem solved.

Stop treating cults as character classes or alignments.

[mfbrandi]

Can a Humakti and a Lanbril ever be mates?

Sure. Not only is Humakt guilty of handling stolen goods, he had the cheek to go on to claim that he was the very thing stolen. That is an act of misdirection of Lanbrilian audacity and — it must be said — effectiveness.

Edited July 10, 2023 by mfbrandi
eliminated word repetition

[French Desperate WindChild]

I would say people could become friends (or more), whatever their origin / clan / cult

the only issue I see here is because this cult is and must be secret, the lambrili has to keep his cult secret.

So always to go undercover.

I think that's the main point, and some dramatic situation he (and the others) will face if the others know. Because he tells them, or because they discover it, he would have to make a choice :

who will be betrayed : those who knows ? or the cult ?

kill the party or become the next target of Lanbril's followers and spirits of reprisals ?

 

For me that is exactly the same situation irl when spies have to choose between betraying their service or their love/friends

[DrGoth]

Crossing over threads - a BG and Lanbril make more sense to me

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, DrGoth said:

Crossing over threads - a BG and Lanbril make more sense to me

Intriguing. Care to say more? As a detective odd couple, or as perpetrators of heists?

[ChrisWentWhere]

On 7/7/2023 at 5:20 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Get the Humakti friend to kill the members of the Ring.  Problem solved.

Stop treating cults as character classes or alignments.

Ha ha, or new set of problems created...

I'm not. 

[ChrisWentWhere]

As usual my pervasive sense of vagueness has confused the issue, so let me shine some light. 

I am the GM

3 PC's: 1 Humakti, 1 Issaries merchant, 1 Lanbril worshipper (who I am going to call 'thief' for convenience not because I think that is his character class - his background was as a fisher and for the last year his occupation was in the militia) who has managed to pull the wool over the other's eyes while they were in the Sandheart Militia. There has been a lot of dramatic tension from this and it has been great to play. My original post was a little tongue in cheek (always a bad idea...one of many on my part), of course they can be 'friends' albeit not very honest ones. I should have said can they be accomplices.

The campaign is gravitating to Pavis for various reasons. At some point, in order to further his own ambitions, naturally enough the thief will be undertaking various nefarious activities. Starting with breaking into the impressive house of Duke Raus, of course. 

Which presents me with a few options as I see it:

The thief (probably with NPC's) does his thing and the others sit and watch... easy but not very satisfying all round.
The others temporarily take on the roles of some members of the Ring of Lanbril... bit more work but my experience is that they are very reluctant to do this.
The others come along for the ride. Now as far as I am concerned this opens up all sorts of problems:

• they aren't members of the Ring of Lanbril - so they and our thief will probably get their knee-caps smashed in (or at least they will try and the Humakti kills them all at which point our thief assumes control as Rodney Dangerduck suggests...but of course he know has no one to teach him the cult secrets...whoops).
• they could become lay members of the Ring - sounds quite fun actually, but really? the Humakti is a 90% Honour bound bundle of joy. I do not see that happening... which I guess is the nub of it. Am I being too dogmatic here? I was thinking of a simple ok roll over your Honour and reduce if you don't. Is that enough? Too much?
• As for our Issaries merchant, he is a bit of a cad, I can see it happening, but if anything Issaries is even more opposed to Lanbril than Humakt. Perhaps roll over his Devotion (Issaries)? And then of course they will be making him a lot of 'offers he can't refuse'... 
• What if they get caught? Over and above the punishments meted out on them, surely there would be severe ramifications from their cults. Is a Ban too much? I don't think so...
• To counter balance all of this they all have quite a high Hate (Lunar Empire) passion so perhaps they can justify it that way. To themselves at least.   

I know I am probably overthinking it. It is a problem that afflicts me in many ways... 

Maybe this will all be resolved with the appearance of the Lightbringers book soon (obviously along with other much more important questions). My research so far has brought up the two bits of information I mentioned earlier:

"Due to Lanbril’s success in concealing his Godtime activities, most cults embodying the Truth Rune are his enemies." 

But then it says in the Cult Compatibility Chart (RQ Companion) that the attitude of Humakt to Lanbril is Neutral (although the attitude of Lanbril to Humakt is Hostile...). Or have I read that wrong?

Cheers everyone, all answers gratefully received including the ones telling me I've totally missed the point of everything as usual.  

 

[jajagappa]

49 minutes ago, ChrisWentWhere said:

The campaign is gravitating to Pavis for various reasons. At some point, in order to further his own ambitions, naturally enough the thief will be undertaking various nefarious activities. Starting with breaking into the impressive house of Duke Raus

It really depends on the presentation (including who the patron/employer is).

If the sole thief is asked by the Ring of Lanbril to engage in the theft purely to obtain the goods, then, yes, it will be hard for the others to justify. It is THEFT, not equal exchange (Issaries) or honorable (Humakt).

However, if you shift the focus to something like: the evil Empire has obtained a weapon that will be used to bind things to the current order - then you've got a workable scenario. The thief serves as the agent who can gain the "weapon", Issaries is interested in ensuring that change/movement occurs vs. the unnatural order of the Empire, and Humakt is about Separation (not just Death) and in this case, the Empire has unnaturally held onto a dangerous weapon/order (e.g. Humakt/Death was the tool used to break the original unnatural order in the Cosmos). 

[ChrisWentWhere]

19 hours ago, jajagappa said:

It really depends on the presentation (including who the patron/employer is).

If the sole thief is asked by the Ring of Lanbril to engage in the theft purely to obtain the goods, then, yes, it will be hard for the others to justify. It is THEFT, not equal exchange (Issaries) or honorable (Humakt).

However, if you shift the focus to something like: the evil Empire has obtained a weapon that will be used to bind things to the current order - then you've got a workable scenario. The thief serves as the agent who can gain the "weapon", Issaries is interested in ensuring that change/movement occurs vs. the unnatural order of the Empire, and Humakt is about Separation (not just Death) and in this case, the Empire has unnaturally held onto a dangerous weapon/order (e.g. Humakt/Death was the tool used to break the original unnatural order in the Cosmos). 

Hmmm yes I Iike that... At the moment it is very much presented as a simple opportunity for the thief to exploit. He overheard the conversation which revealed the lack of guards on the night, but has yet to set up the job and do any preparation, even in terms of talking to the rest of the Ring about it. I am just trying to pre-empting what I know is likely to occur.) So as far as he knows it is just a normal theft. 

But it could be changed in some way - one thing I was thinking of bringing in at some point was having Garrath Sharpsword (who they have already met and in fact the thief has become slightly infatuated with him...) trying to find out some information about the shenanigans in Corflu, with the Watchdog being animated and the invasion of Karse being prepared for (current date in the game is Storm Season 1618). Some clues relating to these could be the real prize, hidden in Raus's treasure chest instead of, or maybe as well as, the Wand of the Seven Lunar Phases - in fact, perhaps they have to get in and out with no one knowing (so the Ring of Lanbril will not know - or will be disappointed by the lack of results). Perhaps he can pinch a few gems while no one is looking...

      

[jajagappa]

9 minutes ago, ChrisWentWhere said:

Some clues relating to these could be the real prize, hidden in Raus's treasure chest instead of, or maybe as well as, the Wand of the Seven Lunar Phases - in fact, perhaps they have to get in and out with no one knowing (so the Ring of Lanbril will not know - or will be disappointed by the lack of results). Perhaps he can pinch a few gems while no one is looking...

The scenario I ran at ChaosiumCon (A Road From Nowhere) made use of the Wand of Seven Phases as a Lunar weapon that could be used to unlock the gate to Lhankor Mhy's Ivory Tower in the Otherworld. Argrath (aka Garrath) contributed to the adventurers finding themselves in the Otherworld trying to stop the Lunar agents. 

14 minutes ago, ChrisWentWhere said:

one thing I was thinking of bringing in at some point was having Garrath Sharpsword (who they have already met and in fact the thief has become slightly infatuated with him...) trying to find out some information about the shenanigans in Corflu, with the Watchdog being animated and the invasion of Karse being prepared for

This route provides a lot of opportunity to engage more of your PC's directly, and do so in a way that a "theft" appears more "honorable".

[French Desperate WindChild]

21 hours ago, ChrisWentWhere said:

I should have said can they be accomplices.

In that case my answer would be no. 😛

 

however it is a nice situation (from outside, for sure, poor gm, you may propriate eurmal and malia next time !)

For me you forget one option :

you propose that you, as a gm, find the solution to let the characters do the scenario. that's your role of course

but now.. if you think differently and see your role as your thief player advisor..

play a solo session with him/her

You are the ring, you want the thief to do something, something his/her friends will not appreciate

You propose the mission, and wait the answer. If the thief accepts it... then you, as the ring, say "there is a problem, your friends... What is your plan to hide our identity and your mission. Fail and we will do what we have to do to save the secret, so what is your plan ?"

So now, it is not you (gm) but the player who has an issue 🙂 of course, you can help him/her, share your ideas (oups... ring's ideas), challenge his/her proposals.

and who knows... maybe the thief will not be able to find  a solution, maybe the thief will fear the ring's decision then, maybe the thief will say the truth and succeed to convince the party to solve the issue. Maybe your campaign now, is about a renegade trying to destroy a lambril's ring, in secret of course because your thief is still a lambrili

[ChrisWentWhere]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

The scenario I ran at ChaosiumCon (A Road From Nowhere) made use of the Wand of Seven Phases as a Lunar weapon that could be used to unlock the gate to Lhankor Mhy's Ivory Tower in the Otherworld. Argrath (aka Garrath) contributed to the adventurers finding themselves in the Otherworld trying to stop the Lunar agents. 

Sounds interesting is that available anywhere?

[ChrisWentWhere]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

however it is a nice situation (from outside, for sure, poor gm, you may propriate eurmal and malia next time !)

Ha ha, I will give that a try! 

 

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

play a solo session with him/her

Not really viable at the moment we struggle with one session every couple of weeks as it is - everyone has a lot of demands on their time unfortunately. But I like the sound of thief advisor! Maybe later on.

I have now reached out to the players to help me come with a solution (while not giving them all the details of course...). I suspect a convoluted hybrid of solutions will emerge which will just make my head hurt. But thanks for your help! 

 

[Brian Duguid]

On 7/10/2023 at 4:03 PM, ChrisWentWhere said:

they could become lay members of the Ring - sounds quite fun actually, but really? the Humakti is a 90% Honour bound bundle of joy. I do not see that happening... which I guess is the nub of it. Am I being too dogmatic here? I was thinking of a simple ok roll over your Honour and reduce if you don't. Is that enough? Too much?

So, are you basically asking ... can there be honour among thieves?

Page 234 of the RQG rulebook defines honour as "a personal code of dignity, integrity, and pride". Personal emphasises that it is to some degree judged separately from social codes of behaviour; it is a personal virtue that is evidenced through individual acts of behaviour. It is certainly not identical to morality or compassion. See the table of dishonorable acts on the same page: stealing from others is not inherently dishonorable, in the way that breaking an oath certainly is, because the latter is a breach of integrity. Humakti cause harm to others all the time, and not even in pursuit of some higher goal, when hired as mercenaries. Note also that even plundering a holy place of your own religion is a mere -5% dishonor, compared to breaking an oath at -25%.

I'm not suggesting that Humaktis routinely get involved in acts that their society considers immoral. Any Lanbrili is also highly unlikely to satisfy Humakt's standards of honourable behaviour. A thief can never be entirely honest with the broader community they operate within. But amongst thieves, there can certainly be their own kind of honour, and perhaps the secret here is to find the overlap between any Lanbrili code of honour and the Humakti's code of honour. And one way to understand and define that overlap would be the making of an oath, to set clear expectations of all those concerned.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, ChrisWentWhere said:

Sounds interesting is that available anywhere?

Only in my notes at the moment! 

Some day, once past other projects (or perhaps as part of one of those projects), I'll get it put together for the Jonstown Compendium.

[ChrisWentWhere]

29 minutes ago, Brian Duguid said:

So, are you basically asking ... can there be honour among thieves?

Page 234 of the RQG rulebook defines honour as "a personal code of dignity, integrity, and pride". Personal emphasises that it is to some degree judged separately from social codes of behaviour; it is a personal virtue that is evidenced through individual acts of behaviour. It is certainly not identical to morality or compassion. See the table of dishonorable acts on the same page: stealing from others is not inherently dishonorable, in the way that breaking an oath certainly is, because the latter is a breach of integrity. Humakti cause harm to others all the time, and not even in pursuit of some higher goal, when hired as mercenaries. Note also that even plundering a holy place of your own religion is a mere -5% dishonor, compared to breaking an oath at -25%.

I'm not suggesting that Humaktis routinely get involved in acts that their society considers immoral. Any Lanbrili is also highly unlikely to satisfy Humakt's standards of honourable behaviour. A thief can never be entirely honest with the broader community they operate within. But amongst thieves, there can certainly be their own kind of honour, and perhaps the secret here is to find the overlap between any Lanbrili code of honour and the Humakti's code of honour. And one way to understand and define that overlap would be the making of an oath, to set clear expectations of all those concerned.

Oh I absolutely agree with that, anyone who has any knowledge of the Mafia, or even modern gang culture can see that. In fact the thief's player often comments that "ho ho ho my character has 0% honour". And I think to myself hmmm, I you do... But there are definitely codes of behaviour - most important of which is that you never, ever grass anyone up to the authorities. I have actually toyed with the idea of drawing up an alternative honour table for him at some point. 

But that is a really good point that honour is not the same as morality. So far the Lanbrili has been very careful to keep his nefarious activities very secret. He has spent his time in the militia fighting alongside the others and only occasionally acting in a highly suspicious way. The Humakti is suspicious of him, because he is suspicious of everyone. For them to make an oath sounds really interesting. As it happens they have already made an oath together (not to reveal the location that they previously met some Sartarite rebels). But for them to make that oath would require some disclosure on the part of the Lanbrili wouldn't it. Which is a bit risky...

Funnily enough I think that the Humakti might prove less of an obstacle than the Issaries Merchant!         

[Rodney Dangerduck]

6 minutes ago, ChrisWentWhere said:

But there are definitely codes of behaviour - most important of which is that you never, ever grass anyone up to the authorities

THIS!  THIS!  A hundred times this!

The RQG concept that there is One True Concept of Honor is completely bogus.  Samurai concepts of honor are also quite different.

Now, rename "Honor" to something else, like "Fidelity" (Semper Fi) or "Integrity", and it works as written.  Maybe this is how we should think about it?

As for getting the Lanbril and Humakti to work together, a mission to infiltrate a Zorak Zoran or Vivamort complex would certainly appeal to both of them.

[DrGoth]

On 7/10/2023 at 10:24 PM, mfbrandi said:

Intriguing. Care to say more? As a detective odd couple, or as perpetrators of heists?

TBH Hadn't thought it through that much.  I could see either working.  BG don;t have the same pesky sense of honour as Humakt, so perpetrators are possible.  Even more so if you went the Robin Hood route.  As detective odd couple, very much.  BG would be more willing tp put up with Lanbril's occasional not-so-honest urges. And willing to slap him around until he sees 'sense'.

 

[Joerg]

Humakt teamed up with Eurmal. In what way could teaming up with a follower of Lanbril be worse than that?

From the Lanbril side, being friends with a death-wielder and truth-sayer may be stifling and irritating.

Still, the friendship asked about is between people, possibly kinfolk, and not between cult representatives in their official function.

[soltakss]

Quote

Can a Humakti and a Lanbril ever be mates?

Of course they can.

Religious differences can add spice to a friendship, but don't mean that Humakti and Lanbrili can never be friends.

Sure, the Humakti will probably chide the Lanbrili and tell them not to steal but may well just sigh when the Lanbrili does steal.

I don't like religious dogmatism. There are lots of examples in the real world where people of diametrically opposed religions were friends. They just agreed to disagree.

[Shiningbrow]

On 7/24/2023 at 4:01 AM, soltakss said:

I don't like religious dogmatism. There are lots of examples in the real world where people of diametrically opposed religions were friends. They just agreed to disagree.

While I do generally agree with this idea, this 'real world' (What, you're saying Glorantha isn't real??? take your tinfoil hat off, looney!!!) doesn't have gods that regularly show themselves. the "diametrically opposed religions" here are largely because they take it all on 'faith'. You can agree to disagree - until you cop a Lightning bolt to the face, or Sunspear to the guts! (well, ok, all hit locations).

[JRE]

Using a literary equivalence, that would be like expecting that Sam Spade, as an example of an unaffiliated (remember Humakt is neutral) truth seeker with a strong honor code and an affinity for violence, could never be friendly with a career criminal, specially one that focuses on non-violent crimes on people who can afford it...

It is, basically, one of the basic noir novel plots...

I was going to use Glen Cook's Pat Garret, P. I. as the example, but although it is fantasy I would expect it is less well known. In that case it would be his friendship with Morley, though he is more Black Fang than Lanbril.