Shamans, combat and newbies

[Squaredeal Sten]

It seems to me that the seasonal occupational and cult skill improvement chances will be important for building to full shaman, since many adventures won't have opportunities to build such skills as spirit speech or spirit travel or spirit dance.

And a caution about using these in a purposeful manner is appropriate advice for a new player who opts for the assistant shaman.  With a reminder that the goal is not just buffing yourself for the next adventure, (with its temptation to get distracted building non shamanic skills)  but also preparing to do well in the ordeal vs. The Bad Man , and to improve your chance of starting with a good fetch.

[Squaredeal Sten]

9 hours ago, davecake said:

I....... I’d not at all be afraid of letting PCs becoming shamans, and not forcing them to spend a lot of time as apprentice shamans if they aren’t interested - it makes them the magic specialist they want to play.

.........

That reminds me: Recently someone playing an assistant shaman expressed the preference for taking the Ordeal for full shaman as early as possible.  That struck me as a strategy likely to produce future frustration, because

(1) low skills will both increase the chance of starting with a low POW, low CHA fetch and also 

(2) lower chances of getting extra shamanic abilities and higher chance of getting more taboos from the ordeal vs. The Bad Man.

I know it's a trade off, more immediate gratification vs. a longer term future.  And that is an individual preference.  But what would your advice be to the player running an assistant shaman?

[Akhôrahil]

9 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I know it's a trade off, more immediate gratification vs. a longer term future.  And that is an individual preference.  But what would your advice be to the player running an assistant shaman?

You have to be really lucky to get boons, and taboos really aren’t that bad. This means good Spirit Combat is nice, but not critical. Getting a bad Fetch sucks though, and I would not want to go in without a 95% chance on that roll (the PC in my campaign who did the test a while back put his Ritual Preparation into the Fetch roll, not Spirit Combat… and then rolled spectacularly for Spirit Combat anyway).

Edited August 9, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

I think a good spot is when you can get 95% on your Fetch roll and have 125+% in modified and augmented Spirit Combat (giving you decent chances to avoid taboos by having 50% left after being downgraded). This isn't super demanding, but also probably not something you can do out of the gate.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[French Desperate WindChild]

4 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

That reminds me: Recently someone playing an assistant shaman expressed the preference for taking the Ordeal for full shaman as early as possible.  That struck me as a strategy likely to produce future frustration, because

(1) low skills will both increase the chance of starting with a low POW, low CHA fetch and also 

(2) lower chances of getting extra shamanic abilities and higher chance of getting more taboos from the ordeal vs. The Bad Man.

I know it's a trade off, more immediate gratification vs. a longer term future.  And that is an individual preference.  But what would your advice be to the player running an assistant shaman?

I think you already have the advices 🙂

 

[Joerg]

On 8/9/2023 at 7:28 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

I agree (again !) with @Joerg when he dislikes the close combat shaman option but...

I think that you are agreeing with @Jens again.

[davecake]

22 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

That reminds me: Recently someone playing an assistant shaman expressed the preference for taking the Ordeal for full shaman as early as possible.  That struck me as a strategy likely to produce future frustration, because

(1) low skills will both increase the chance of starting with a low POW, low CHA fetch and also 

(2) lower chances of getting extra shamanic abilities and higher chance of getting more taboos from the ordeal vs. The Bad Man.

There is only two skills that makes a notable difference - Spirit Dance, and Spirit Combat. And Spirit Dance needs only to be a moderate level - it explicitly can be augmented by ritual practices, which means +45% or more is easy to achieve in normal circumstances with an extra few hours, and other augmentations might be possible, so a moderate skill can get you to 100% chance of success. And chances over 100% are probably diminishing returns - only getting a special or critical improves on a plain success, so it’s worth getting to 95% but not much above that. So it’s relatively easy to ensure have a 95% chance of getting the a full 3D6 CHA fetch - and very difficult to get it much above that except by luck. 

Now, it’s worth improving your Spirit Combat chance, because extra shamanic abilities are cool. But it’s also difficult to do so to the point it makes much realistic difference. The Bad Man’s skill is 175%, so the shaman is at -75% to their skill. It’s not that very hard to hit 75% - an assistant shamans Spirit Combat is at least 20% base chance + 15% cultural + 30% for occupation = 60% + magic bonus, but can be as high as 20% + 20% cultural + 30% occupation plus 15% if an initiate of Daka Fal or Waha = 85% + bonus. But even at a skill that high, you are still at a huge disadvantage at the Opposed Roll. Your skill - 75 is still just almost always a failure, as if you make a normal success, it will still be beaten by any normal success from them (and that only starts to change at skill -95 so you can roll a success that is higher than their special chance). To get a real chance of beating them, you need to get close to their skill, and getting close to 175% is incredibly hard! You can bump it a bit with Inspiration, but I can’t think of much else, and if your skill is less than that you should be fighting the Bad Man for the minimum number of rounds. Waiting until you had a notable chance of success would take a huge effort. 
On the other hand, what are the consequences of going into that fight at a big disadvantage? The most important factor really is the completely random determination of how many rounds you must fight minimum. And the consequence of failure is extra taboos. Just accept you get extra abilities only by dumb luck, and extra taboos are not that awful a consequence! 

Considering your realistic chance of both, I’d say wait until you can be nearly certain of a successful Spirit Dance with reasonable ritual practices adding at least 40+%, but just accept that you’ll almost certainly not get much from improving either chance beyond that point, and hope a lot for some blind luck (the Bad Man can always fumble!). 

Unless I’m missing some ways to hugely boost your Spirit Combat skill? 

[davecake]

23 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

giving you decent chances to avoid taboos by having 50% left after being downgraded

Because it’s an opposed role, 125% skill giving you a 50% chance of succeeding at your skill roll is a lot less than that chance of winning the contest. Even if you roll a normal success (between 10-50), nearly half the time they roll a normal success higher than your skill, so you lose, but another 20% of the time they beat you because they rolled a special, and if they rolled between 20-50 there is a good chance you’ve both a suceeded but their number is higher so they win then too. Opposed rolls amplify advantages. 

[Akhôrahil]

57 minutes ago, davecake said:

Because it’s an opposed role, 125% skill giving you a 50% chance of succeeding at your skill roll is a lot less than that chance of winning the contest. Even if you roll a normal success (between 10-50), nearly half the time they roll a normal success higher than your skill, so you lose

Such Pendragon rolls are a house-rule - by RAW, Success vs. Success is explicitly a tie. They need a Special or better (20%) to beat your success, and you can match their special with one of your own (which you after all have 10% chance of). And I did say nearly half the time to take specials and crits into account.

[Squaredeal Sten]

2 hours ago, davecake said:

........ 

Unless I’m missing some ways to hugely boost your Spirit Combat skill? 

In your opinion can the new shaman  Augment, say with a Loyalty or a Love passion, to affect these events?

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

In your opinion can the new shaman  Augment, say with a Loyalty or a Love passion, to affect these events?

I would allow it - I don't see that as any different than other combat, and you can augment those skills.

[g33k]

5 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

In your opinion can the new shaman  Augment, say with a Loyalty or a Love passion, to affect these events?

Providing the conflict at hand warrants the Passion, then of course they can.

Is there something to invoke the Loyalty, something to impact the person(s) who are Loved (for good or for ill)?

[Squaredeal Sten]

3 hours ago, g33k said:

Providing the conflict at hand warrants the Passion, then of course they can.

Is there something to invoke the Loyalty, something to impact the person(s) who are Loved (for good or for ill)?

I was thinking that a desire to make the shaman who trained you (to whom you have Loyalty)  proud, might be such an augment.  Same for love of family in the case of a Daka Fal initiate.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
Love of

[Akhôrahil]

8 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

In your opinion can the new shaman  Augment, say with a Loyalty or a Love passion, to affect these events?

Yes, if applicable. It’s not immediately obvious how they would motivate an Augment to the Fetch roll, though. Cultist Devotion might be easier to apply there.

Love (Family) for Daka Fal should work nicely as it also counts for ancestors (and it will probably be high, too - our PC Shaman has it well above 100%).

Edited August 11, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[davecake]

16 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

RAW, Success vs. Success is explicitly a tie.

You are correct, my mistake - the corrections on Well of Daliath removed the sentence that mislead me. 
I still think while it’s true that while managing to boost your Spirit Combat well above 75% to increase your chance of success in fighting the Bad Man, is definitely an advantage if you can do it, you are still only about to win contests with a lot of luck - most of the time you are fighting for the difference between a loss (an extra taboo) and a tie (nothing happens). Mostly it is still in your interest to leave the fight as soon as you can (which is random). 
While it’s definitely a good plan to make it as high as you can, I don’t think delaying becoming a shaman for the many years before you can approach the Bad Man’s 175% skill (which just gets you on equal terms, so usually a tie) is worth it. You miss out on years of POW gain roles, etc! 

 

[davecake]

It’s notable that shamans that get the ‘4 free extra abilities, 4 bonus extra geases’ deal are at a big advantage (Waha, Golden Bow). I think that normally costs 10 points of attributes outside of shamanic initiation or the intervention of a Great Spirit! 

Daka Fal does not - but I think the Cults book version is changed from the RAW version, and makes Daka Fal is both easier (confronts an ancestor not the Bad Man) and harder to qualify for (must be a master of Spirit Speech first). Spirit Speech, while not unique to Daka Fal, seems to be something they are particularly adept at. All the Ancestor spells give them unique advantages, too. 
Jakaleel does not get the extra abilities, but they do get an allied spirit, which is helpful. Plus access to all that Lunar rune magic, and potentially Illumination and Red Goddess magic for super boosted spirit magic, making them quite formidable when experienced. 

And the various Hsunchen shamans are relatively weak shamans with no particular magical advantages, but immediate access to shape changing and combat magic is useful? I think one of their real advantages is that many animal spirits are readily available, friendly, and with a lot of practical survival and military uses.

And troll and elf shamans are among the weakest and least flexible shamans in some way both have restrictions in what spirits they can bind to their fetch), but both have a full range of Rune spells. Aldrya shamans seem to have a much more dangerous that usual shamanic ordeal against the White Lady (anyone got a handy copy of the Earth Cults book) rather than the Bad Man. Aldrya shamans can bump their Rune Magic access to include all common rune magic either by becoming a priest of Flamal as well (explicitly encouraged) or waiting 20 years and becoming a Gardener.

Kygor Litor shamanism is of course in addition to being a priestess of Kygor Litor. So they do have notable shamanic powers, but excellent Rune magic. And can usually get access to Ancestor Worship as well.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

You are correct, my mistake - the corrections on Well of Daliath removed the sentence that mislead me. 
I still think while it’s true that while managing to boost your Spirit Combat well above 75% to increase your chance of success in fighting the Bad Man, is definitely an advantage if you can do it, you are still only about to win contests with a lot of luck - most of the time you are fighting for the difference between a loss (an extra taboo) and a tie (nothing happens). Mostly it is still in your interest to leave the fight as soon as you can (which is random). 
While it’s definitely a good plan to make it as high as you can, I don’t think delaying becoming a shaman for the many years before you can approach the Bad Man’s 175% skill (which just gets you on equal terms, so usually a tie) is worth it. You miss out on years of POW gain roles, etc! 

Agree. Push hard on your Spirit Dance (for the fetch roll) and Spirit Combat (actually less important here, but you will want it as high as possible anyway), and upgrade to shaman as soon as you feel comfortable. Hope to get out of it with just a couple of taboos. 125% Spirit Combat after buffs (augment; extended Charisma) isn't actually very high, and you can get away with less for certain. I run that you can use Ritual Preparation for either skill.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Squaredeal Sten]

I don't know how many others are taking notes on this thread, but I am and I'm saving a digest to give to players who want to run an assistant shaman.

[soltakss]

On 8/7/2023 at 12:51 PM, DrGoth said:

1) what do people see as the role of the shaman in the group/story?

Shamans are the masters of spirits and can be useful when Spirits attack. They can also search for rare and uncommon Spirit Magic to teach to people.

For me, Shamans are more useful when tied to Traditions, as they can get access to a fair amount of useful Runemagic by contacting Spirit Lords from their Tradition. They can also contact Spirit Lords individually and gain their Runemagic.

On 8/7/2023 at 12:51 PM, DrGoth said:

2) how effective are shaman in combat and how do they achieve that?

They can send spirits out, if they have bound them, to attack in Spirit Combat.

They can cast spells, which is handy if they have a lot of Bound Spirits whose Magic Points they can use, especially if they can cast more than one spell per round.

They can heal other Adventurers.

If they have access to powerful spirits, such as Wraiths, they can send them out to attack the enemies.

They can summon Healing Spirits to heal Adventurers.

On 8/7/2023 at 1:07 PM, David Scott said:

Shamans and assistant shamans that I have had i my games, generally stay out of combat, unless it's spirit combat where they excel. I very rarely have fights in my game.

Troll Shamans are handy in combat, as they tend to be big and brutal. They also have Wraiths and Fear Spirits that they can use. But, I suppose, Trolls are not really playable characters yet.

 

 

 

[DrGoth]

On 8/12/2023 at 7:12 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

I don't know how many others are taking notes on this thread, but I am and I'm saving a digest to give to players who want to run an assistant shaman.

Would you be willing to share that?

[Squaredeal Sten]

14 minutes ago, DrGoth said:

Would you be willing to share that?

Of course.  Ir's a group product.  See attached PDF.

 

 

Advice for newbie Asst shamans.pdf

[davecake]

On 8/13/2023 at 2:15 AM, soltakss said:

Troll Shamans are handy in combat, as they tend to be big and brutal. They also have Wraiths and Fear Spirits that they can use. But, I suppose, Trolls are not really playable characters yet.

Kygor Litor is playable now, especially if you also have access to an older edition long writeup, though you do need to have a reason for them to adventure with non-trolls. But the short form cult writeup and occupational skills are pretty much there in the bestiary. KL priestesses must first become priestesses and are only secondarily shamans, though - the priestess profession does grant shamanic skills. 

There are certainly other spirit cults unique to troll shamans, and many troll shamans are part of the shamanic tradition of Jakaboom (which can be treated as essentially the same as the standard shaman rules) and actually most of the spells are already in the Red Book, just lacking the background (mostly just who grants them). Boztakang grants Stones to Kill Chaos, Gore and Gash grant Shadows Dance, Hombobom grants Tambour, Jakaboom grants Create Foe-Curser, Karrg can be contacted as a spirit cult and grants Induce Uzdo, Korasting the Purification Ritual, Robber grants Drown, Lorian grants Strongnet (worshipped near Skyfall Lake), Jeset the Ferryman grants Styx’s Shore (useful on heroquests), Vaneekara the Hurler grants Hurling, Kogag the Boatmen grants Float. They can also worship Asrelia as a spirit cult and gain Hide Wealth. So that’s a pretty rich set of troll shamanic traditions. Troll shamans don’t learn combat skills, but do have natural strength and start with ok weapons and armour, so are far from defenceless. 

Troll smiths can learn the Heat Metal spirit magic spell from Gustbran. 

[Jens]

On 8/9/2023 at 11:36 PM, Joerg said:

I think that you are agreeing with @Jens again.

We Germans all look alike. Or perhaps it's the accent.

Fully agree with all of the points about using ritual practices to bump your Spirit Dance- easy to start at 50%; and augment your Spirit Combat- easy to start at 90+%. And of course an Extended Charisma spell can be a big boost. POW is IMHO more of a gate than skills, since you don't want either your or your Fetch's POW to be too low, but even there you can start with an 18 (or more thanks to the Moon rune). So with a willing GM, and a player more interested in expanding play opportunities rather than waiting to become an overpowered Shaman, you could certainly step up from Assistant to Full Shaman soon after character creation (assuming your brand of Shamanism doesn't have other skill requirements).