Shamans, combat and newbies

[DrGoth]

I was hoping to introduce some of my roleplaying friends to RQG and Glorantha later this year.  But I've now learnt that one of them has already played it - and it wasn't a happy experience.

The story, as he told me, was that he decided to be a shaman so that he could bring the magic (and no, he's not a D&D fan - he likes Vampire and Fate).  But, he says, it didn't work, as "everyone has magic", "I didn't bring the best spell, I brought the sixth best spell" and "healing doesn't matter because everyone has it."  He did admit that he could help out of comabt by communicating with spirits but felt that he was next to useless in combat.  My experience of RQG shamans is practically zero, but I would have thought that with the fetch, bound spirits, large range of spells and much greater than any one else's magic pool that ineffectiveness in combat would not be a problem. Maybe I'm missing something?

I feel something went wrong somewhere in that game (which I didn't play).  But not knowing shamans I'm handicapped in trying to explain to him where it went wrong.  So

1) what do people see as the role of the shaman in the group/story?

2) how effective are shaman in combat and how do they achieve that?

Any advice appreciated.

[David Scott]

9 minutes ago, DrGoth said:

I was hoping to introduce some of my roleplaying friends to RQG and Glorantha later this year.  But I've now learnt that one of them has already played it - and it wasn't a happy experience.

The story, as he told me, was that he decided to be a shaman so that he could bring the magic (and no, he's not a D&D fan - he likes Vampire and Fate).  But, he says, it didn't work, as "everyone has magic", "I didn't bring the best spell, I brought the sixth best spell" and "healing doesn't matter because everyone has it."  He did admit that he could help out of comabt by communicating with spirits but felt that he was next to useless in combat.  My experience of RQG shamans is practically zero, but I would have thought that with the fetch, bound spirits, large range of spells and much greater than any one else's magic pool that ineffectiveness in combat would not be a problem. Maybe I'm missing something?

I feel something went wrong somewhere in that game (which I didn't play).  But not knowing shamans I'm handicapped in trying to explain to him where it went wrong.  So

1) what do people see as the role of the shaman in the group/story?

2) how effective are shaman in combat and how do they achieve that?

Any advice appreciated.

A few pointers:

• You don't start as a shaman, you start as an assistant shaman. You struggle to become a shaman in a similar manner to becoming a Rune Lord or Priest
• Shaman are the master of spirits and spirit combat, not masters of combat. This is the same with many non-martial Rune levels.
• The role of the shaman will vary depending on the cult.
• Shaman are not useful in combat as it's an hour long ritual to discorporate.

Shamans and assistant shamans that I have had i my games, generally stay out of combat, unless it's spirit combat where they excel. I very rarely have fights in my game.

[Squaredeal Sten]

In another thread I recently posted my own similar  observatins of this' Basically that players struggle with an assustant shaman.

A full shaman will probably have bound spirits and access to all spirit magic, plus formidable POW (his own plus his fetch's)  which would make him good to stand back and be a combat spellcaster, and maybe put his controlled spirits into spirit  combat.  They might even possess an enemy!  Plus when the party runs into ghosts etc. he actually turns them into assets.  None of this requires an hour long  discorporation.  He is at least equivalent to a rune lord.

But the assistant shaman just starts with a very little more magic than his fellow starting characters.  And the starting player doesn't know which spells are optimum choices, nor really know the magic system, so the GM has to tell him "no that spelll doesn't do what you want.". No fetch.  No previous combat job experience and less armor, so the character is as you describe..  

The GM can help a little by presenting adventures in which the assistant shaman can be useful and develop, a spirit combat rather than just a sword fight.

IMHO asst. shaman is not a recommended choice for a first time Runequester.  BUT an experienced player can make it work if he has thought about the issues. 

Some guidance or experience would help.   Maybe an on line tutorial?  An assistant shaman soloquest?   I believe there are optimum starting spell choices and an optimum path of spell and skill acquisition, but even if I had that written out, just handing that list to the new player might take away the character development fun.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing

[Akhôrahil]

50 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

In another thread I recently posted my own similar  observatins of this' Basically that players struggke with an assustant shaman.

A full shaman will probably have bound spirits and access to all spirit magic, plus formidable POW (his own plus his fetch's)  which would make him good to stand back and be a combat spellcaster, and maybe put his controlled spirits into spirit  combat.  They might even possess an enemy!  Plus when the party runs into ghosts etc. he actually turns them into assets.  None of this requires an hour long  discorporation.  He is at least equivalent to a rune lord.

But the assistant shaman just starts with a very little more magic than his fellow starting characters.  And the starting player doesn't know which spells are optimum choices, nor really know the magic system, so the GM has to tell him "no that spelll doesn't do what you want.". No fetch.  No previous combat job experience and less armor, so the character is as you describe..  

The GM can help a little by presenting adventures in which the assistant shaman can be useful and develop, a spirit combat rather than just a sword fight.

IMHO asst. shaman is not a recommended choice for a first time Runequester.  BUT an experienced player can make it work if he has thought about the issues. 

Some guidance or experience would help.   Maybe an on line tutorial?  An assistant shaman soloquest?   I believe there are optimum starting spell choices and an optimum path of spell and skill acquisition, but even if I had that written out, just handing that list to the new player might take away the character development fun.

Interestingly, it's still one of the very best professions, because of just how amazing one extra free POW yearly is.

Early on, you start as probably the one person in the party who is good at handling spirits, as well as with the Lore skills. Ideally, spirits should turn up often enough to make you feel like you have niche protection. Good POW means that you can use powerhouse spells like Befuddle and Demoralize (and Sleep depending on how your GM feels about that), and no-one's going to be sad if your provide back-rank healing.  Pack a few reserve weapons for when you run out of MPs.

I think one issue here is how the default Shaman cults in the core rulebook are Daka Fal and Waha, which are not the most immediately useful adventuring cults (Daka Fal can be really cool, but mostly when you've gotten into the game and added a few Rune Points more). Horned Man and a bunch of Spirit Cults once that book shows up should help out a lot with this. Our shaman feels a lot more active from Kolat, with the cost-effective ability to release an Air Elemental from the bag and then commanding it back in at the end of fighting.

Edited August 7, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Godlearner]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Shaman are not useful in combat as it's an hour long ritual to discorporate.

I would disagree there. Shamans have access to a vast amount of magic point and their POW tends to be high. They also have access to bound spirits and their abilities are can make them very powerful. 

The shaman's fetch can release bound spirits to attack in combat. The shaman himself may also have spirits or elementls which he can release in combat. The shaman may have bound spirits with attack spells spirit or divine spell which the party may not nirmally have access to. The shame should also liberally use Multispell to shotgun various spirit spells. 

A shaman in RQ is a buffer and cannon. He is also an after combat healer and has the ability to Resurrect.

[Akhôrahil]

2 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

I would disagree there. Shamans have access to a vast amount of magic point and their POW tends to be high. 

Definitely. Until we get the Hero Rules, shamans are the absolute masters of POW vs POW rolls, and no-one who's seen a shaman with Multispell up and spamming Demoralize would think them bad in combat.

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, DrGoth said:

I feel something went wrong somewhere in that game (which I didn't play).  But not knowing shamans I'm handicapped in trying to explain to him where it went wrong.  So

1) what do people see as the role of the shaman in the group/story?

2) how effective are shaman in combat and how do they achieve that?

Shamans are an interesting group, and definitely require some thought to play (and enjoy), and also more challenging for the GM to engage with in game without going off on complete side-tangents. They are not simply DnD Druids in disguise.

They are Spirit specialists. If they are still Assistant Shamans (as most new characters will be), you want them to be high POW in preparation for dealing with spirits and later becoming a full Shaman. While choosing a cult is not necessary as a shaman, it will generally help to be part of one (Daka Fal or Hykim/Mikyh are probably better choices than Waha). 

You want the Assistant Shaman to be prepared for two situations: 1) identifying, engaging, and combating spirits, and 2) helping others defend against spirits.

To facilitate both, you want the shaman character to draw the attention of spirits away from their comrades: get the Distraction spell!

To continue to build up POW, you want to be able to find and defeat spirits: get the Detect Spirit spell. Disruption can also be used to target spirits.

You need to be able to reduce the damage from powerful spirit foes: get the Spirit Screen spell (and if part of a cult, have Rune points to use Spirit Block). These are also useful for casting on your companions to help protect them from spirits. 

After addressing the above, think about how the shaman (even an assistant shaman) can aid a group. They can travel into the Spirit World. That has two potential uses: 1) gaining information from spirits; and 2) scouting nearby places via the Spirit World.

In both cases, the shaman needs to be able to Discorporate. The full shaman can readily do this, and has a fetch to protect their body. The assistant shaman does not. Being part of a cult where the Discorporate Rune spell is available is a plus as it can allow you enter the Spirit World - but you do want companions around to protect your body. Think of it as similar to your Sage going off into the Temple of Knowledge - but there's a time factor to find a spirit who might have an answer. If you're out of Rune points or don't have the Rune spell available, the next option is hazia, or similar... "Medicinal" use of drugs to induce discorporation. Getting the drugs may become an important focal point of the shaman and their companions.

In terms of scouting, you want to enter the Spirit World and stay local - you're just on the "Other Side" and are now seeing the locality as other spirits would. Some things are very similar, but there may be oddities about. But use it to travel and walkabout the target area (e.g. foe's villa or camp, etc.). Perhaps have Detect Life, Detect Magic, or other Detect spells to see what you can find as your soul passes through building walls to investigate. This activity can keep the shaman engaged in the game along with hunters and other scouts on the mundane side of things.

They may also be able to find and join a Spirit cult. This can provide access to more magic of specific type (probably by taking some taboos). 

Eventually, you want the shaman character to gain some sort of binding for the spirits they capture via spirit combat. Shamans can use the fetch to bind such, but assistant shamans need matrices and enchanted objects. But such bound spirits can then be deployed in combat situations, or as scouts, etc. Let the shaman play these roles. 

[Jens]

Fully agree with all of the previous points- while Shamans are easily as, if not more powerful, than equivalent Rune levels, Assistant Shamans are more challenging to play, and are best suited to more experienced players and a willing GM. Just like other specialized characters (a Lhankor Mhy sage for example), they will be less of a combat monster than combat specialists, and the GM needs to provide opportunities for their special skills to shine (lore, reading, investigation for a scribe; talking to spirits, visiting the spirit plane, summoning ancestors for Assistant Shamans).

That being said, since most have a high POW and access to diverse spells, there are 2 low cost spells that make Assistant Shamans extra useful in combat- Distraction, and Befuddle. As mentioned by @jajagappa, Distraction is a great spell for having malign spirits attack the spirit combat specialist in your group, but it's also helpful for pulling the focus of a corporeal enemy- cast it on the big bad guy who's about to kill your best fighter and then run away- he'll be forced to chase you, rather than finishing your colleague.

Befuddle is the other fabulous first choice for an Assistant Shaman- can potentially neutralize an opponent every round, and can be used in non-combat situations as well (bluffing your way past a guard, getting out of an increasingly hostile conversation, etc.).

Assistant Shamans do best if they have access to a bound spirit early on, either by getting them as a random boon or family heirloom during character creation, or by buying or sacrificing a couple of points of POW to create a biding enchantment.  

 

 

[g33k]

As others have said, Shamanic types (even Assistants) can be critical when hostile spirits are around... so GM's should make sure to include some!

But also, sometimes you're investigating -- spirits may provide clues, hints, etc.  A murdered ghost may point out a murderer... or simply the fact of a murder when a murderer had staged an "accidental" death.  Spirits' perspectives are different from peoples' so their "scouting" is limited... but not nil.

Physical combat isn't the Asst-Shaman forte, but Befuddle & Demoralize can be great; sometimes Distraction, too.  Party buffing and bad-guy debuffing can be important, and overt combat like Disruption.

 

Buffing the Asst. Shaman --

  A bound spirit can be incredibly useful.

  A sizeable MP-storing crystal, likewise.

  As per Squaredeal Sten... extra advice/assistance from the GM (spell selection at character-creation, but also suggesting when/why to summon spirits, how/why to use their abilities) seems very worthwhile.
 

Edited August 8, 2023 by g33k

[g33k]

11 hours ago, DrGoth said:

I was hoping to introduce some of my roleplaying friends to RQG and Glorantha later this year.  But I've now learnt that one of them has already played it - and it wasn't a happy experience.

The story, as he told me, was that he decided to be a shaman so that he could bring the magic (and no, he's not a D&D fan - he likes Vampire and Fate).  But, he says, it didn't work, as "everyone has magic", "I didn't bring the best spell, I brought the sixth best spell" and "healing doesn't matter because everyone has it."  He did admit that he could help out of comabt by communicating with spirits but felt that he was next to useless in combat.  My experience of RQG shamans is practically zero, but I would have thought that with the fetch, bound spirits, large range of spells and much greater than any one else's magic pool that ineffectiveness in combat would not be a problem. Maybe I'm missing something?

I feel something went wrong somewhere in that game (which I didn't play).  But not knowing shamans I'm handicapped in trying to explain to him where it went wrong.

Note that a full Shaman (fetch & all) isn't a starting Adventurer!
The "Assistant" Shaman is much less potent.

As others have said, the newbie may well have needed more assistance picking magic... but also:  Shaman's concentrate on Spirit-magic spells, and Rune Magic *is* generally "better" so a shaman-player's gripe about "sixth-best-spell" isn't unreasonable!  A key issue, though, is the limits of Rune-Pools, and the plenitude of Magic Points (particularly if the Shaman gets to have some sort of MP-store); this may not have come through in the one game, particularly if the GM was generous about Rune-pool replentishment.

 

11 hours ago, DrGoth said:

...  So

1) what do people see as the role of the shaman in the group/story?

2) how effective are shaman in combat and how do they achieve that?

Any advice appreciated.

1) The Shaman's role in an Adventuring party is much like their role in Society:  protector / advisor / intercessionary when Spirit issues become a problem for the living (and also when the Living become problems for the Dead (or for other Spirits)).

2) Physical combat isn't where Shamanic types shine; but a full Shaman with a strong Fetch, multiple potent bound spirits, deep MP-stores, Shamanic Abilities (such as Spell-Barrage) and a large panoply of spells... a single Shaman with all that can be a BossFight for even a very-strong party!

By the same token, protecting against spirits (and advising about Shamans) can be critical, as even mid-power spirits can be a huge challenge for a largely-physical party, as can unexpected Shamanic Abilities & similar resources.

[Squaredeal Sten]

Let's list the most desirable spells for a full shaman's normal spirit work, and the desirable sklls too, with an eye toward the Test-

Then list the most desirable spells for a new assustant shaman, with the limits "new" imposes plus the desire to be effective in a fight.  And I realize cult makes these limits vary, so let's say Daka Fal.  (Though I think Waha is actually an attractive choice.)

I think we will all see that the player creating a new assistant shaman has to make some hard choices.  And what are your opinions about the optimum choices?

Key for a full shaman:

Rune spells: Axis Mundi, Free Ghost, Incarnate ancestor, Resurrect, Spirit guardian, Spirit melding, summon ancestor, Summon specific ancestor, Summon spirit teacher, Binding Enchantment, Matrix Creation, Spirit Armor Enchantment..  Doesn't need discorporation because he has it ex officio,

Spirit spells; Binding enchantment (1pt), control spirit (1pt), Detect spirit(1pt), Distraction(1pt), Dispel magic(V), Glamour(2pt), Heal (V),magic point enchantment (1), second sight (3pts), spell matrix enchantment (1), Spirit binding(1), Spirit screen (v), Summon (spirit? ancestor?) (v), visibility(1):

[and that doesn't include combat spells like Befuddle]

Skills needed for the Test: Spirit combat.  Additional skills needed for work: Speak spiritspeech, Spirit Dance, spirit lore, spirit travel

My own opinions about what's best for the new assistant who is adventuring away from his shaman master:

3 Rune spells: Discorporation, Summon Spirit Teacher, Free Ghost.

Spirit spells: Begins with Second sight ( a free 3 pt spell for Assistants !) plus 2 points, plus the usual 5 points= 7 other points of spirit magic:

IMHO that 7 points would be good as Disruption(1), Healiing (1), Control spirit (1) Detect spirit(1), , Spirit screen(2), Spirit binding(1).

Commentary:

Summon spirit teacher is because I assume he's going to be away from his shaman.

Disruption and healing are for power gain and adventuring.  The new assistant shaman should attempt to buy or trade an item enchanted with binding enchantment, but IMHO cannot afford to take that magic at start instead of Disruption or Healing.  He can plan to be taught other needed and enhanced spirit magic.

And i haven't even started to estimate the sequence of the path forward.

Your thoughts?

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
looking up in the books

[French Desperate WindChild]

17 hours ago, Jens said:

the GM needs to provide opportunities for their special skills to shine

the most important words of GM life ! Shaman or other, the GM is responsible (of course players too) to offer opportunities to players to play. If your players want to play a trade campaign, there is no sense to propose 20 dungeons to visit. That the same with the carreer they choose.

 

if I had to play an assistant shaman, I would decide between :

- become a range/close fighter. A bow, a sling, a spear & shield and it's done (75% should be the target before working only to become shaman). First rounds you fight, until the front line starts to be wounded, then you heal.

if you are in close combat, you are close to the other fighters (not 10 meter behind) so you are the first one able to heal your friend. And even if you don't have rune spells, bladesharp 6, protection 6 (if you want to "tank"... are good and not so hard for an assitant to obtain) And you are able to find any spell for your bow without difficulty.

- become a healer. Of course other can use runespells, but with heal 6+ you are able to do a lot of things. And those who fight well should focus to fight more than to heal their friends. And 6 mp lost... nothing in comparison of a rune point. Of course if people can regain rune point after every fight, that is less true. But if there are 2 or 3 difficult fights between two worship ceremonies, spirit magic is very powerful.

 

- become a disrupter. (my favorite). You can confuse and other activities, you have pow, so you can eliminate in 5 rounds five opponents. They are not dead, but they are not able to fight. And if you have your first matrix with an elemental, you are able to do a lot of things: put your friends behind the ennemy line with your sylph, "eat" or at least "freeze" the big guy with your gnom, fear the healers with your darkness spirit, etc...

 

Once shaman, there are so many options, it depends a lot of what you did when you were assistant, how important is roleplay and social activities (easy to have 10 rings with ten super powerful spirits with the rules. The question is would you like to play such game), GM opportunities (as @Joerg said) and player imagination.

The issue with the shaman (like sorcerer in fact), in my opinion, compared to other cult/occupation is they are not "specialist" (ok there are spirit specialist, and so what ?). If you hear humakt, you probably understand warrior adventurer , if you hear issaries , you probably  understand merchant/negotiator adventurer, if you hear ernalda, you probably understand healer. It is easier to imagine what you play, how you react.

Of course, some will play differently, of course, and that is for me the strength of runequest, why I love this system, there is no class, so you can be a fighter and an ernaldan (probably magical, but why not a tank ? earth shield is fine)

And that's exactly what you have to do with a shaman, there is not (for adventurer) a clear position in the group. Shaman have to build their own.

Imagination is required to play shaman or sorcerer, when it is an option for others (and a lot of fun of course in all cases)

[Akhôrahil]

3 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

My own opinions about what's best for the new assistant who is adventuring away from his shaman master:

3 Rune spells: Discorporation, Summon Spirit Teacher, Free Ghost.

Won't work - Summon Spirit Teacher requires a Summon Ancestor to stack with, and you haven't learned that yet.

3 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Spirit spells: Begins with Second sight ( a free 3 pt spell for Assistants !) plus 2 points, plus the usual 5 points= 7 other points of spirit magic:

IMHO that 7 points would be good as Disruption(1), Healiing (1), Control spirit (1) Detect spirit(1), , Spirit screen(2), Spirit binding(1).

1. You always want Healing 2 rather than 1, in order to stop bleeding.

2. You definitely need a proper attack spell like Demoralize or Befuddle (or in the unmodified Core rules, Sleep), or you won't carry your weight in regular fights. Disruption isn't enough, although it's a good reserve tool for when other things don't work.

3. I very much doubt you can afford the POW for any spirit binding while you're an Apprentice Shaman.

[Squaredeal Sten]

4 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Won't work - Summon Spirit Teacher requires a Summon Ancestor to stack with, and you haven't learned that yet.

1. You always want Healing 2 rather than 1, in order to stop bleeding.

2. You definitely need a proper attack spell like Demoralize or Befuddle (or in the unmodified Core rules, Sleep), or you won't carry your weight in regular fights. Disruption isn't enough, although it's a good reserve tool for when other things don't work.

3. I very much doubt you can afford the POW for any spirit binding while you're an Apprentice Shaman.

So you would drop the spirit binding and take Heal 2?  

If you take Demoralize, what other spirit magic do you not take?  Remember developing as a shaman implies spirit combat oriented magic.  

Summon Spirit Teacher,,,  so instead of Free Ghost, take Summon Ancestor?  

 

[Akhôrahil]

35 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

So you would drop the spirit binding and take Heal 2?  

If you take Demoralize, what other spirit magic do you not take?  Remember developing as a shaman implies spirit combat oriented magic.  

Summon Spirit Teacher,,,  so instead of Free Ghost, take Summon Ancestor?  

First off, I don't think Control Spirit is something that exists - it's Control [Entity], and the rules say "This spell comes in many variations, such as discorporate
spirits, nymphs, specific type of elementals". Getting such a specialized Control spell doesn't seem like a good investment (later on, you will be able to use anything you like due to Shaman rules). So that's out. 

Heal (2), Demoralize, Disruption, Spirit Screen (2) would probably be my go-to. You could also drop the Spirit Screen entirely and rely on Rune Magic for Spirit Combat armor, but this might get expensive fast. This reduces your spirit job somewhat, but as an assistant shaman, you might want to be mostly defensive against spirits, rather than seeking them out (Discorporate is also questionable due to this - do you really feel competent in doing solo spirit travel yet?). Losing Distraction hurts, though.

This makes for a functional second-liner in mundane combat.

[Squaredeal Sten]

17 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

First off, I don't think Control Spirit is something that exists - it's Control [Entity], and the rules say "This spell comes in many variations, such as discorporate
spirits, nymphs, specific type of elementals". Getting such a specialized Control spell doesn't seem like a good investment (later on, you will be able to use anything you like due to Shaman rules). So that's out. 

Heal (2), Demoralize, Disruption, Spirit Screen (2) would probably be my go-to. You could also drop the Spirit Screen entirely and rely on Rune Magic for Spirit Combat armor, but this might get expensive fast. This reduces your spirit job somewhat, but as an assistant shaman, you might want to be mostly defensive against spirits, rather than seeking them out (Discorporate is also questionable due to this - do you really feel competent in doing solo spirit travel yet?). Losing Distraction hurts, though.

This makes for a functional second-liner in mundane combat.

We evidently have different interpretations of the control (entity) spell.  Control spirit is one of those variations, in my interpretation.

The heavier combat orientation doesn't help the assistant shaman's professional development.  It's a matter of taste;  my own preference is for heavier anti-spirit capability, better positioning for the next POW gain and the next spirit spell gain, and lighter on combat vs. bodies.  Befuddle would be a spell I'd pick up with experience or passage of time: my goal would be to survive the first adventure, then use Summon Ancestor plus Summon Spirit Teacher and get my next spell..  Which might be Befuddle. 

Discorporate at this stage would be used locally, for instance to question the spirit of someone newly dead in the seven days it stays around the corpse.  There seem to be many adventures in which that would be useful.  As for solo spirit travel, after building spirit combat skill and Spirit Dance skill beyond the beginner level,  it will be time to fly solo for some distance.  You've got to get a handle on the spirit world some time.

[Runeblogger]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

3. I very much doubt you can afford the POW for any spirit binding while you're an Apprentice Shaman.

Right, but if you ever have 3 POW to spare, creating a binding enchantment for a ghost is great because then you can Control the ghost and unleash it against the most combat-oriented enemy in order to cancel him for a few turns, and with a bit of luck, if the ghost manages to possess him, you can then turn him against his friends! 
Remember to Control the ghost back to your binding enchantment when he’s finished though.

[Jens]

I'd shy away from a close-combat oriented assistant shaman; likely won't help you long term, and armour tends to vanish to taboos (plus you don't start with any). I'd pick a missile weapon and dodge- fits in more with the skirmisher archetype a lightly armoured assistant shaman naturally falls into.

For starting sprit spells, this is what I chose for my last character:
Befuddle 2 - more effective than Demoralize or Disrupt for removing foes from combat, gets you POW gain rolls
Distraction 1-  great for making sure spirits attack you, and saving allies as a last resort
Glamour 2- helps your social skills, as well as magic skills and spirit combat damage
Mobility 1- helps you run away (skirmisher role), and drops your SR (spell casting & ranged)
Speedart 1- lets you hit harder and more often for only 1 point
Second Sight 3- free spell

For healing, I got a Random Boon and lucked out with a Bound Spirit- GM let it be a spell spirit with Heal 6.

For Rune spells I chose:
Discorporation- a must for an Assistant
Axis Mundi- helps when summoning spirits
Summon Ancestor- the building block for the other summon spells, and useful in its own right

[Akhôrahil]

4 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

We evidently have different interpretations of the control (entity) spell.  Control spirit is one of those variations, in my interpretation.

I don't get it - the spell explicitly says "discorporate spirits, nymphs, specific type of elementals", which are each a subset of spirits. Why would anyone ever pick that if "Spirit" is legitimate?

And you will get your POW gain roll as soon as you're involved in any combat (unless you're in excess of 95%, which can happen against animals). I'd be vary against being a monotasker against spirits, because the large majority of fights likely won't involve Spirit Combat. Like you said, you want to survive that first adventure. Vishi Dunn is built the way he is because he can deliver in close combat from llama-back instead (if unreliably).

Edited August 8, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Jens]

The Well provides specific guidance for Control (Entity)- "Look to the RuneQuest Glorantha Bestiary. You might break it down to Animal Spirits, Demons, Disease Spirits, Healing Spirits, Plant Spirits, Ghosts, Guardian Spirits, Landscape Spirits, Nymphs, etc."- see https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/cha4034-the-red-book-of-magic/cha4032-the-red-book-of-magic-qa/cha4032-red-book-of-magic-chapter-03-spirit-magic-spells-qa/#Control

[davecake]

I don’t think of becoming a full shaman as the same level as becoming a rune lord - more like becoming a god talker, something that can happen fairly early in an adventurers career. Shamans effectiveness depends a lot on their fetch POW and shamanic abilities, both of which can increase during play - their core shamanic abilities increase their abilities for sure, but aren’t the huge jump in power that becoming a rune lord is. I’d not at all be afraid of letting PCs becoming shamans, and not forcing them to spend a lot of time as apprentice shamans if they aren’t interested - it makes them the magic specialist they want to play. And they become more powerful through play.
if you want a shaman that feels effective in combat situations, a few points of spell barrage as a shamanic ability make a big difference. Multiple Befuddle or Demoralise spells in a round, plus the shamans increased chances of effecting others, can make their magic turn the success of an encounter quickly, while not raining on the melee specialists parade. Having a spirit or two ready to attack can help turn the fight against a big powerful enemy, too. Or they can just be a member of one of the shamanic cults that also has a combat side if that is the character they want - be a member of Golden Bow and blast away with Fire Arrows plus have generally good combat magic, join Waha and you have solid combat magic, both access to Shield (yes, there are cultural constraints on those cults). The hsunchen cults are also an interesting option, most can give savage hand to hand spell options. 

if they just want to feel like an important member of the party due to their magical abilities, just have a lot more spirits in adventures! Let the shamans at will Second Sight be useful, because they can see spirits that’s enemies have as allies. Let them talk to spirits of a place to find out useful information. Let them trade with spirits for favours (spirits like nymphs can be incredibly useful at solving practical problems, but even simple animal spirits and spirits of place are handy). Give them easy access to spirit world interaction spells like Visibility, Taunt, Control <spirit>, Binding. Let their Spiritspeech skill mean they are able to communicate with almost all spirits, likely a rare ability. 
BTW a small optional rule I use - Pacted spirits don’t need a binding object IMO but can move independently (very practically useful as spiritual guards, scouts, etc), and while they don’t cast spells for the shaman, I think they will use spirit Powers (bestiary pg 165-167), which can varying be very useful practically (Affect Environment, Control animals, Search), make for nasty attacks (Bite, Spirit Dart of Spirit Weapon, etc) as they will fight on the shamans behalf (RAW say spirit combat, but I figure that means anything they have), or make enemy shamans excellent villains (Curse, Disease, etc).

Shamans when you do get to the ‘rune lord’ level of play can be incredibly powerful. Spell Barrage is very powerful, they can have permanent magical defenses with Spell Extension, and over the long term can gain POW at an unprecedented rate by increasing their Species maximum POW with Soul Expansion. Plus most can rapidly built up a collection of useful Rune magic from spirit cults - if they don’t have plenty from a shamanic cult like Golden Bow, Waha, Daka Fal, or Jakaleel already. The various Spirit Traditions can give access to a lot of powerful spirit magic, though most aren’t well documented in public material yet. And attacking with spirits is very effective. Plus you get a lot of choice in how you develop your character compared to Rune cults that strongly direct your character focus. 

[davecake]

An Apprentice Shaman is not yet a powerful magician, just being prepared for one - but the barriers to becoming a full shaman are less game mechanical, and more story (does their master think they are ready? Yes, can be an abstracted roll, but I prefer this to be roleplayed) and player choice (does the character feel ready to take the ordeal with a reasonable Spirit Combat, and to a lesser extent Spirit Dance skill, and enough POW that they are prepared to sacrifice a reasonable amount for their fetch). Whether you want to make this easy or hard is campaign style choice, I think. 
But an assistant shaman can still be fulfilling. Emphasize their knowledge of local spirits, and ability to communicate with them, and make it useful. They have access to the (otherwise rare) spirit magic for talking to the spirit world like Visibility or Taunt or Spirit Screen or Control <spirit>. Their master may help them out with the loan of helpful spirits or items, shamanic resources (magic herbs? a bit of hazia for an emergency Discorporation maybe!), etc, while also being a useful ‘quest giver’ for the GM. (Useful ideas in the Weapons and Equipment Guide, and Treasures of Glorantha book from the JC has the excellent medicine bundles). 

[French Desperate WindChild]

we focused on Daka Fal shaman (axis mundi etc...) but remember that we can find shaman in a lot of cults too

 

I agree (again !) with @Joerg when he dislikes the close combat shaman option but...

 

what about Yinkin, Odayla, Telmor, Stormbull, Rathor.... or even Orlanth, Yelm, Bab's *... or ...Humakt* (good to see and manage all these dead people among us)

same for heal, combining shaman and Ernalda, Chalana and other offers a lot of opportunities (and a better ready-made way to play, if you don't know how to play / enjoy your shaman)

 

 

* not sure if you can beboth  inititate and shaman of these gods, but it seems it is possible

[Ludo Bagman]

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

what about Yinkin, Odayla, Telmor, Stormbull, Rathor.... or even Orlanth, Yelm, Bab's *... or ...Humakt*

An initiate of cults that are not spirit related will have a harder time preparing to become a shaman: a lower spirit combat skill and useful spirit magic must be learnt from associated cults (e.g. from Waha for Stormbull cultists) or from the shaman master (the additional spells at character creation, later in roleplay). 

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

not sure if you can beboth  inititate and shaman of these gods, but it seems it is possible

According to this, not for Babeester Gor, but it is possible for Humakt:

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha/cults-allowing-sorcerers-or-shaman/

[French Desperate WindChild]

30 minutes ago, Ludo Bagman said:

An initiate of cults that are not spirit related will have a harder time preparing to become a shaman: a lower spirit combat skill and useful spirit magic must be learnt from associated cults (e.g. from Waha for Stormbull cultists) or from the shaman master (the additional spells at character creation, later in roleplay). 

for sure if you become assistant during the play. However if you start the adventure as assistant & initiate from, you have your shaman. This shaman may be from the same cult or not (background & passions discussion) but at least it is a shaman, so a source of what spirit spells you want (and the GM accepts to provide)

But it is clear that if you want to add % to combat skill (=personal skills during the creation process), it could be a detriment to your shamanic skills (hard to reach the shaman requirements, or just to be efficient) but that's a question of choices.