Accidential illuminates

[Soccercalle]

How do you GM and involuntary illuminate who gets illuminated by accident? How and when will they realize it? I am thinking about a PC from a culture where illumination is seen as strange and maybe even evil?

[Richard S.]

It might be good to look at the Reminiscences of Paulis Longvale, since Oddi the Keen is probably the most well known example of someone being Illuminated accidentally. Seemingly he didn't notice for a while, not until he was about to fight Ralzakark and realized he no longer felt the same level of hatred towards him.

[EricW]

You could have a lot of fun with this. Tempt the player to break the rules, like finding a scroll of sorcery skill, or other slightly forbidden magic. Put them in scenarios where they solve the problem by using the forbidden magic. Encourage them to convince themselves that rule breaking is justified by the greater good - I mean sorcery isn't chaos, and a little sorcery makes a great secret weapon which can save the party.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

2 hours ago, EricW said:

You could have a lot of fun with this. Tempt the player to break the rules, like finding a scroll of sorcery skill

If sorcery doesn't make sense for the PC or your group, they can always join another cult to get that "one important rune spell" that is needed to help accomplish the next mission.  🙂

[French Desperate WindChild]

11 hours ago, Soccercalle said:

How do you GM and involuntary illuminate who gets illuminated by accident?

not yet done, so just my thoughts :

- during an heroquest, facing a big thing like chaos during orlanth initiation, but could be something without any chaos, just something very very powerful. Not something to fight/destroy, just "see and feel"

- or probably during a passion roll fumble. Not during a "simple" augment, but when there is a crisis. For example you are seeing your clan/temple burning, you fumble and... well you don't feel anything, seems weird...

 

11 hours ago, Soccercalle said:

 How and when will they realize it? I am thinking about a PC from a culture where illumination is seen as strange and maybe even evil?

i would say that you probably feel right away that something is weird (why seeing your village burning is not important ?) even if you don't think immediatly about illumination. I would propose that, as a gm, there are two options (or more, depending on the different "trigger") :

- when a fumble passion,  you don't have to say "it is weird", just say you don't feel nothing, and let the player think about that (so when depends on the player 😛 )

- during heroquest, the gm could say that the character is attracted by the source, or anything "against" the character values. No repulsion/hate or things like that. That doesn't mean the character will follow the opposite way (becoming chaotic for example) just, that he/she will not impulsively react, and have time to... think about what he/she faces.

 

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

41 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

or probably during a passion roll fumble.

I think the mechanics maybe should be reversed.  Instead of Illumination "causing" or showing up as a passion roll fumble, the passion roll fumble should "cause" or give a bonus to the change of illumination.

[French Desperate WindChild]

37 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I think the mechanics maybe should be reversed.  Instead of Illumination "causing" or showing up as a passion roll fumble, the passion roll fumble should "cause" or give a bonus to the change of illumination.

yes that is exactly what I mean: because the fumble, you ask yourself ==> illumination (if I understand your point)

[Akhôrahil]

8 hours ago, EricW said:

You could have a lot of fun with this. Tempt the player to break the rules, like finding a scroll of sorcery skill, or other slightly forbidden magic. Put them in scenarios where they solve the problem by using the forbidden magic. Encourage them to convince themselves that rule breaking is justified by the greater good - I mean sorcery isn't chaos, and a little sorcery makes a great secret weapon which can save the party.

...and reward them with Illumination, the power-gamer's dream? 🙂

[ZedAlpha]

In the HeroQuest game I ran a few years ago, one of the PCs--a Eurmali Trickster--became Illuminated through a Heroquest called "How Eurmal Got The Infinity Rune (And Then Forgot Where He Put It)." We ran Illumination as something that was ultimately frustrating for them, but helped them develop a lot more empathy than they previously had for their fellow sentients. They didn't go mad with power because they started that way as a trickster--they became a bit less jerk-y overall.

[EricW]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

...and reward them with Illumination, the power-gamer's dream? 🙂

Illumination should have dangerous consequences, otherwise everyone would be doing it.

The slightest hint of illumination could lead to accusations the PC is a Lunar spy. Illuminated Lunars would be attracted to the PC. They could have all sorts of suspicious Lunar interactions, like Lunars acting hostile, arresting the PC party, then suddenly everything is OK when the priest sees them - though the priest wants a private word with the illuminate. "What was that all about?" - the PC better be quick on their feet with a plausible lie.

Any attempt to power game could lead to hostile divination and accusation. Maybe better to kill the witnesses, even if they are friends. And of course, there is always the possibility of meeting an Arkati who assumes any illuminate they don't know is Gbaji - especially if the PC starts being careless about abusing their power, and the Arkati was drawn to investigate the PC.

[EricW]

6 minutes ago, ZedAlpha said:

In the HeroQuest game I ran a few years ago, one of the PCs--a Eurmali Trickster--became Illuminated through a Heroquest called "How Eurmal Got The Infinity Rune (And Then Forgot Where He Put It)." We ran Illumination as something that was ultimately frustrating for them, but helped them develop a lot more empathy than they previously had for their fellow sentients. They didn't go mad with power because they started that way as a trickster--they became a bit less jerk-y overall.

An illuminated trickster wouldn't necessarily know they were illuminated. I mean, the ability to break all the rules without feeling guilty? Trickster can already do that. Join other cults? Why bother? Trickster can supply an endless variety of interesting magic. I mean, Trickster is adept at lying to his own worshippers - including the illuminates.

[ZedAlpha]

The Illumination came in the form of realizing that there's no point in breaking any of the rules, just as there's no point in following the rules. Kinda broke the poor little bastard's brain.

[Akhôrahil]

49 minutes ago, ZedAlpha said:

The Illumination came in the form of realizing that there's no point in breaking any of the rules, just as there's no point in following the rules. Kinda broke the poor little bastard's brain.

Agree - a trickster would think it’s important and mandatory to break the rules, not an optional extra.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, EricW said:

Illumination should have dangerous consequences, otherwise everyone would be doing it.

It’s the Hero Wars - most everyone who matters is doing it.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Rodney Dangerduck]

49 minutes ago, ZedAlpha said:

The Illumination came in the form of realizing that there's no point in breaking any of the rules, just as there's no point in following the rules. Kinda broke the poor little bastard's brain.

From Cults of Terror, page 19:

"... you or I must obey the laws, because they are the laws; the chaotic being must disobey the laws, because they are the laws.  Since even the most powerful chaotic cannot defy all laws at once, they feel forever enslaved..."

[EricW]

54 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

It’s the Hero Wars - most everyone who matters is doing it.

Indeed. But a major superhero has beaten pretty nearly everyone who had a problem with their choices. 

The same protection shouldn't necessarily apply to PCs, only if they develop their own terrifying reputation. 

[ZedAlpha]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

From Cults of Terror, page 19:

"... you or I must obey the laws, because they are the laws; the chaotic being must disobey the laws, because they are the laws.  Since even the most powerful chaotic cannot defy all laws at once, they feel forever enslaved..."

It did end up making the character a very empathetic, kind, in-the-modern-sense heroic person. In their own words, "If nothing matters, then the only things that matter are what I say matter," and they decided that the best way forward was to just help people. Using Trickster magic. An actually capital-G Good Trickster was terrifying, at least conceptually.

[mfbrandi]

9 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

“Since even the most powerful chaotic cannot defy all laws at once, they feel forever enslaved”

Until that lightbulb moment, then they put their feet up, have a nice cup of tea, and start flicking through the “fancy goldfish” catalogue.

8 hours ago, ZedAlpha said:

“If nothing matters, then the only things that matter are what I say matter”

Turns out ethics doesn’t have a firm foundation: our spade turns not on bedrock, but on the void:

• the dark side response: I can substitute my own will or desire for the divine or the ethically self-evident
• the chagoi breeder’s response: ethics needed no foundation, but neither the divine nor dodgy philosophy could ever have provided one, anyway

Neither response comes bundled with ethics and behaviour — tied up with a nice pink bow — and the person with the flaky analysis may nonetheless fail to pursue an apocalyptic powergamer’s agenda. Turns out the trickster was by instinct or conviction prosocial and religion and society — keen to pigeonhole misfits — were holding them back, making them feel they had to break every law. But the only law to break was Eurmal’s — E surely saw the appropriateness of that and laughed.

Weird isn’t it that beings are written off as compelled to defy all laws, although that is Eurmal’s path of ? We can — at least in discourse — siphon off the awkward bits of the Prince of the Power of the Air into Killer Boy and Deadeye, but we cannot quite say Orlanth = the Devil. Is that because then the Devil would not be or because then the big O would be? Don’t ask me — I don’t even work here.

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Weird isn’t it that beings are written off as compelled to defy all laws, although that is Eurmal’s path of ? We can — at least in discourse — siphon off the awkward bits of the Prince of the Power of the Air into Killer Boy and Deadeye, but we cannot quite say Orlanth = the Devil. Is that because then the Devil would not be or because then the big O would be? Don’t ask me — I don’t even work here.

Eurmal has taken ownership of... the Illusion rune, according to the God Learners, leaving ownership of the Disorder rune to his Pamaltelan cousin (and first murderer) Bolongo.

As the owner of the Disorder rune he would be compelled to disobey.

Except... Disorder entities break any such conventions.

Be Boggled.

[soltakss]

Soltak Stormspear was Illuminated after meeting Nysalor on the Spirit Plane. He gained 1D6 Illumination and rolled 4, then he rolled 03 next Sacred Time and became Illuminated. He decided to follow his own honour code to stay true to his ideals.

[Malin]

Since I am pretty sure neither of my players is on this forum, I can say that after tonight's session (and a bloody roll of 01), they are now BOTH accidentally illuminated (It happened 3 sessions ago for the first player) and have no idea about it or what it means for them. I've been sneaking in and re-adjusting their opposed runes on roll20 after they've changed in the character development phase,  I wonder who will be the first to notice something weird is going on...

(so this thread is gold for me)

Edited September 14, 2023 by Malin

[davecake]

I think the accidental Illuminate definitely feels that something has happened, but may have no idea what. Note that being Illuminated doesn't necessarily get you any cool Illuminate powers at all (almost all get the lack of innate hostility to Chaos, though), but may have to learn them. 

But I also don't think everyone is automatically hostile to Illuminates - and indeed, unless they start behaving badly, or weirdly, no one may even know. Even the Arkati don't hate all other Illuminates (though they do look at their actions very carefully), and they ability of Illuminates to detect other Illuminates is one not all Illuminates learn. 

One of the more common powers of Illuminates in RQG is that they can learn to treat Opposed runes as if they are not Opposed. This means an Illuminated Trickster could have high Illusion and Harmony Runes as normal - and high Harmony and Truth Runes as well! 

[Soccercalle]

On 9/25/2023 at 1:59 PM, davecake said:

I think the accidental Illuminate definitely feels that something has happened, but may have no idea what. Note that being Illuminated doesn't necessarily get you any cool Illuminate powers at all (almost all get the lack of innate hostility to Chaos, though), but may have to learn them. 

But I also don't think everyone is automatically hostile to Illuminates - and indeed, unless they start behaving badly, or weirdly, no one may even know. Even the Arkati don't hate all other Illuminates (though they do look at their actions very carefully), and they ability of Illuminates to detect other Illuminates is one not all Illuminates learn. 

One of the more common powers of Illuminates in RQG is that they can learn to treat Opposed runes as if they are not Opposed. This means an Illuminated Trickster could have high Illusion and Harmony Runes as normal - and high Harmony and Truth Runes as well! 

Argrath or Arkat being illuminated didnt make them hate Lunar/Gbaji less. But it took away most of their barriers in fighting their enemies.