Heler's ability

[French Desperate WindChild]

Quote

Social/Political Position and Power :

Heler’s cultists have an ambiguous position in Orlanthi society because of Heler’s ability to change sex.

I thought I would find in the cult book a spell (or an ability like sense weather, sense chaos, ...) allowing cultists to change sex.

But I don't see anything about it. Do I miss something / somewhere ?

 

A helering has no mean to change sex  (don't tell"heroquest" 😉 ) and worship a god able to be male or female or both or none or...

A orlanthi initiate worship a god that can be male or female (hello Vinga) and probably, as any god, is able, even if it is not a very important thing for his/her myths, to be both or none or...

 

So I see  nothing different between Orlanthi and Helering in the society. I would like to see the difference, I would like to have a spell for that. (And I will, but does that mean houserule ?)

Edited October 22, 2023 by French Desperate WindChild

[kalidor]

I think that is a heroquest gift. I really like Heler. I play a Heler cultist from Helerdon and I wonder if we Will learn more in the Sea Gods book (too few associated Gods). And what is the temple size at Helerdon

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, kalidor said:

I think that is a heroquest gift

then there are two options:

1) it is an easy heroquest, as easy than learning a spell --> why not considering it as a spell or just having the gift described somewhere in the cult description ?

2) it is a hard heroquest --> so why this ambigious position when 90% of helering will not have this ability ?

Heler is very interesting. In previous versions of glorantha I had, I understood her/him as (s)he was a powerful god (after all (s)he was one of the Sea army leader). Now it seems to me just like an Orlanth subcult. If (s)he just gives rain, that's sad.

[radmonger]

The write-up of Heler in the Jonstown Compendium book Six Paths has Change Sex as a 3 point reusable rune spell (provided to both Vinga and Nanda).

A potentially dangerous heroquest for a 1-time effect doesn't seem very on-brand for Heler. And surely a safe heroquest is just a rune spell? For background (not protagonist-accelerated) rates of RP  regain, casting that once a year seems about right.

 

 

[David Scott]

As it says: Heler’s cultists have an ambiguous position in Orlanthi society because of Heler’s ability to change sex.

Heler has the ability, but his cultists have an ambiguous position in society. No one will question the gender of a Heler initiate as they can be what ever gender they want. In the Lightbringers book Heler is a rain god, and initiates are uncommon. It's likely that elsewhere he's worshipped in some other form that gives Become (other gender) as a Rune spell.

If you want to be ambiguous gender (or whatever you want to be), join Heler or Orlanth Heler. It's my understanding that not all people who identify with a different gender want to change into that gender (please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm no expert).

[Cassius]

As I see it, to become a man or a woman, Helerings don't need any spell :  they change their inner disposition and, as a consequence, their voice, their gait, their gestures, etc. What is fascinating about them is their ability to be fluidly between what men and women usually look like, to wander at their ease on all levels of 'virility' or 'femininity'.

If your question is about becoming a male or a female, about changing your body, it seems a little more difficult. The only god I can think of who enables this is Eurmal-Shapechanger (see p. 56 of the Lightbringers Cult book). The spell Become [Other sex] appears to be related to the Illusion or Dirsorder rune. But in your Glorantha, you can have this spell linked to the Movement rune and allowed to Heler's worshippers. It's up to you !

[French Desperate WindChild]

56 minutes ago, David Scott said:

his cultists have an ambiguous position in society. No one will question the gender of a Heler initiate as they can be what ever gender they want.

so your point is that "anbiguous" means that facing a heler initiate, you don't know "what" (sorry for my english not sure if it is what/who for this question) is the character where it is clear when you see someone else ?

 

59 minutes ago, David Scott said:

It's likely that elsewhere he's worshipped in some other form that gives Become (other gender) as a Rune spell.

Will we have another version of the cult in the sea/water cult book ? Or where will we find it (in official books I mean) ?

As I see the heler in the lightbringer book is more a subcult of Thunderous as it provides only feat related to rain/weather.

 

35 minutes ago, Cassius said:

As I see it, to become a man or a woman, Helerings don't need any spell :  they change their inner disposition and, as a consequence, their voice, their gait, their gestures, etc. What is fascinating about them is their ability to be fluidly between what men and women usually look like, to wander at their ease on all levels of 'virility' or 'femininity'.

If your question is about becoming a male or a female, about changing your body, it seems a little more difficult. The only god I can think of who enables this is Eurmal-Shapechanger (see p. 56 of the Lightbringers Cult book). The spell Become [Other sex] appears to be related to the Illusion or Dirsorder rune. But in your Glorantha, you can have this spell linked to the Movement rune and allowed to Heler's worshippers. It's up to you !

I agree with you, but what you see (and i see the same) and what is up to you/me is houserule 🙂

I wanted to know where in the rules except this key word "ambiguous" I did not understand like David does (but I have english at the same level than a babboon adventurer has tradetalk 😛 so it is not a surprise)

 

[Lordabdul]

On 10/22/2023 at 1:17 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

A helering has no mean to change sex  (don't tell"heroquest" 😉 ) and worship a god able to be male or female or both or none or...

Personally speaking, I really don't like the treatment of Heler and Vinga as "the trans-people's deities that lets you be trans". I'm glad it's gone.

More generally speaking, Rune magic and heroquest gifts give you the ability to wield the power of a deity. That is: something that they did in the God Time as part of their "story arc". Changing sex isn't something that Heler did in the God Time, that's just what they are. Yinkin is sometimes a shadowcat, and sometimes a human with a cat head. Does that give you a magic spell to change your head or your entire body into that of a cat? No, you're worshipping the cat god, but you are still you, you're not him. Heler doesn't have sex-changing magic for the same reason Yinkin doesn't have cat shapeshifting magic, Barntar doesn't have magic to make you look like a super fit Viking farmer, and Humakt doesn't have magic to make your skin dark. On the other hand, Odayla does give you shapeshifting magic because one of his main myths is going on a hunt for the Sky Bear and returning in its form.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Lordabdul

[Lordabdul]

On 10/22/2023 at 4:29 AM, radmonger said:

The write-up of Heler in the Jonstown Compendium book Six Paths has Change Sex as a 3 point reusable rune spell (provided to both Vinga and Nanda).

Note that Six Paths has Change Sex as a "Self" spell, which means the Heler, Vinga, or Nanda initiate can cast it only on themselves. I mention it just in case @French Desperate WindChild wanted something where, say, a PC/NPC goes to see some Heler priest who is able to cast that sort of magic on them. Of course, it's easy to change "Self" into "Touch" or whatever. If it was me, I would also make it at least into a Ritual spell, too, instead of Instant. A quick "Change Sex" spell you can cast in a combat round sounds more like an Eurmali Illusion to me.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Lordabdul

[Qizilbashwoman]

33 minutes ago, Lordabdul said:

A helering has no mean to change sex

i continue to insist that we don't understand Gloranthan gender (not sex, necessarily) because their gender is [Element Rune].

[Tindalos]

4 hours ago, Lordabdul said:

Changing sex isn't something that Heler did in the God Time, that's just what they are. Yinkin is sometimes a shadowcat, and sometimes a human with a cat head. Does that give you a magic spell to change your head or your entire body into that of a cat? No, you're worshipping the cat god, but you are still you, you're not him. Heler doesn't have sex-changing magic for the same reason Yinkin doesn't have cat shapeshifting magic

I mean, Yinkin does have some cat shapeshifting magic. Claws, cateye, and (through his grandparents) Transform Self. 

Two of those are even shared with Odayla. Just as his initiates can cast transform self to become a bear, or Telmor's can to become a wolf, Yinkin's initiates can become alynxes. 

A better example of this is Storm Bull.

[Lordabdul]

2 hours ago, Tindalos said:

I mean, Yinkin does have some cat shapeshifting magic. Claws, cateye, and (through his grandparents) Transform Self.

Hah I missed it in the Associated Cults section 🙂  Well that messes up my argument but I guess my point still sort of stands. 😋

[Rodney Dangerduck]

5 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

i continue to insist that we don't understand Gloranthan gender (not sex, necessarily) because their gender is [Element Rune].

Now that runes are used for game mechanics in addition to personality, I think it unfair to conflate gender and element, especially Air / Earth.  For example, a Heler worshipping PC might have a high Air rune because, during character creation, they liked the Flight spell, and the PC uses a sword and wants the ability to augment it.  Not because they see their PC as "manly".

[Qizilbashwoman]

4 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Not because they see their PC as "manly"

air isn't "manly"! Air is the model of Orlanth, Vinga and of the other Air gods; Kero Fin has Air and Earth aspects. Your rune is the single largest signifier of your identity in Orlanthi society, and it aligns with important social roles.

Air is bold, inspired, larger than life, heroic. It is the heights of the Middle Sky, the breath of life, and vigor. It is also reckless, risk-taking, and quick to anger. It is also excess, manic energy, and ego. Valind and Vadrus are also Air.

In Orlanthi society, Air is thought of as being mostly associated with people we'd call men, but that doesn't mean it is manly. It does mean you have more in common with other Air rune people.

These also put you close to Air's rival, Moon, which has some of the same aspects!

This is again why we must be careful to evaluate a culture's own self-representations; male and female here are our genders.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Qizilbashwoman

[kalidor]

7 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Now that runes are used for game mechanics in addition to personality, I think it unfair to conflate gender and element, especially Air / Earth.  For example, a Heler worshipping PC might have a high Air rune because, during character creation, they liked the Flight spell, and the PC uses a sword and wants the ability to augment it.  Not because they see their PC as "manly".

My char use change rune for flight. I think if you want a water rune follower as a char Heler IS the only option because IS not geographicaly restricted.

[French Desperate WindChild]

8 hours ago, Lordabdul said:

Well that messes up my argument

et oui ! ... 😛

14 hours ago, Lordabdul said:

I mention it just in case @French Desperate WindChild wanted something where, say, a PC/NPC goes to see some Heler priest who is able to cast that sort of magic on them

my expectation is a "self experience" 🙂  Heler doesnt change other I agree (well from my little knowledge), (s)he is fluid so has a fluid shape. I m not asking for  "a eurmal power", in fact I m not looking for "fun" here just for difference, and how to manage it (if a table has no issue to manage it)

the point for me is the fluidity, the   two broken lines, could be seen for the different "states" (irl gender, interesting @Qizilbashwoman runic-gender, organs and their potential, etc...)  today you are "A", maybe tomorrow you are "A" maybe "B" but another one may be "B" all the time except when there is a trigger, I don't know.

Keeping this "fluidity" and "proving" it as a spell if you need energy to move to another "state" in the mundane world, like telmori, or yinkini..) or as a skill % (you "learn" the inner power of your god, like storm bull) or as an automatic ability (no roll, it is just part of you, as a shamanic ability) seems to me important

 

14 hours ago, Lordabdul said:

Changing sex isn't something that Heler did in the God Time, that's just what they are.

(...)

Barntar doesn't have magic to make you look like a super fit Viking farmer, and Humakt doesn't have magic to make your skin dark.

mmm, we saw that yinkin and brothers offer the capacity of change. For me, the capacity (spell, skill, ability) you gain from a god is not because they did something but because it is part of the main definition of the god.

It is important to see Yinkin as a cat, so you can transform yourself to "become" a cat

It is important to see Odayla the hunter as a bear, so you can transform yourself to "become" a bear

It is not important to see Orlanth as a XXX even if he changed himself into XXX to do something

Is Barntar's look important for Barntar ? Is dark skin important for Humakt ?

Of course what they did may be important too,  but "doing" is not enough. Any air god did fly, however just few can give the flying power to their worshippers. Why ? because for some of them,  flying is important for their definition, for others no

 

I expect that helering are helering because what they are. In the same way that shamans are shamans because what they are (-> fetch)

if it were not something important in the god time, why "this" place, "this" ambiguity in the society.

 They are ambiguous, they are different, and as I understand Glorantha they are accepted with their difference. I just need the difference.

 

But again, I m not strongly requiring  any change (who I am to say it must be?) . I just ask if it is an oversight (so it must be in the rule one day) or an editorial choice (so I must houserule if  I'm not convinced by this choice - and not yet I am 🙂 )

 

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I expect that helering are helering because what they are. In the same way that shamans are shamans because what they are (-> fetch)

As always, nothing is clean in Glorantha:

Most Helerings are actually ethnic minorities in Orlanthi land. They are "blue people" (Orlanthis can dye their skin, but Helerings are actually blue). They are descended from Water people who entered Kerofinela ages ago and they worship Heler. They live in their own communities on the rivers and they function as their own group of fishers and boaters.

The name Helering is confusing for this reason, because it means both "you worship Orlanth" and "you are a separate sub-society of mostly Orlanthi-affiliated peoples descended from Merpeople who invaded the land, and also most of you worship Heler".

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

the point for me is the fluidity, the   two broken lines, could be seen for the different "states"

Where I just see waves... (and Greg's repurposing of the Aquarius glyph)

[David Scott]

14 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

The name Helering is confusing for this reason, because it means both "you worship Orlanth" and "you are a separate sub-society of mostly Orlanthi-affiliated peoples descended from Merpeople who invaded the land, and also most of you worship Heler".

Helering is now only used for gender (RQG 81, Starter Set also) and you don't need to be blue. It isn't used as a name of those who worship Heler and as such is not include in Lightbringers.

It's also name of the children of the water god Heler and their followers in the Godtime (Mythology). The Helerings were then destroyed by Chaos, save for a few surviving colonies along the Manirian shore (Heortling Mythology 65). Given the small number of survivors at the Dawn, they are now likely mixed into to the Orlanthi populations of Maniria where an occasional blue person is born. Greg Sez that Being blue shows that these people have more water in their physical makeup than all of the other elements combined. Which gives us a straightforward rule on who is blue!

[Tindalos]

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Is Barntar's look important for Barntar ? Is dark skin important for Humakt ?

On the other hand, I have remembered page 8 of the Red Book of Magic's section on How Does Rune Magic Appear, Sound, and Feel. There it mentions that when you cast runespells you do gain sensory manifestations to resemble your deity. Dark skin (or rather the caster taking on a blackish hue) is even mentioned, although for Babeester Gor rather than Humakt. 

It's just these manifestations have no mechanical effect, so even if Barntar's magic does make you look like a super fit Viking farmer, it doesn't affect your STR, CON, or SIZ. So Heler's magic may change your body to match the fluid god while it's functioning, but no change to your sheet otherwise. 

 

Of course, for something granting mechanical differences, I've already given my viewpoint, which has already been referred to by people in the thread. 😜

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Helering is now only used for gender (RQG 81, Starter Set also) and you don't need to be blue. It isn't used as a name of those who worship Heler and as such is not include in Lightbringers.

It's also name of the children of the water god Heler and their followers in the Godtime (Mythology). The Helerings were then destroyed by Chaos, save for a few surviving colonies along the Manirian shore (Heortling Mythology 65). Given the small number of survivors at the Dawn, they are now likely mixed into to the Orlanthi populations of Maniria where an occasional blue person is born. Greg Sez that Being blue shows that these people have more water in their physical makeup than all of the other elements combined. Which gives us a straightforward rule on who is blue!

so there aren't any more Helering people? Works for me I guess. I thought they were present in some tribes along rivers, but if that's changed I'm okay with it

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

so there aren't any more Helering people? Works for me I guess. I thought they were present in some tribes along rivers, but if that's changed I'm okay with it

There are bloodlines of Helering descent with a good number of Heler-initiated helering-gendered people. Weirdly enough, the Pelaskite fisherfolk around the Choralinthor Bay don't appear to have any dominant Helering descent.

[Ali the Helering]

I think that Heler is the perfect depiction of gender fluidity, and her/his followers don't see the need to change their body form. 

They are also perfect pan-sexuals.  Water flows where it may....

 

[Lordabdul]

8 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

It is important to see Yinkin as a cat, so you can transform yourself to "become" a cat

It is important to see Odayla the hunter as a bear, so you can transform yourself to "become" a bear

It is not important to see Orlanth as a XXX even if he changed himself into XXX to do something

Is Barntar's look important for Barntar ? Is dark skin important for Humakt ?

It's relevant for Yinkin initiates to be able to do what their god does: be quiet, hide in the shadows, climb on top of furniture and knock down things for no reason, see in the dark, and tear the carpet to pieces. So they need Claws and Catseye and so on to do that.

You don't need to change sex to make it Rain.  Heler's cosmic role is the rain. It's not gender fluidity or whatever. In fact, a lot of water deities and spirits are described as "fluid" in their physical appearance. That's their nature (which sort of trends towards Quizilbashwoman's "Runes as genders" theory). Because if it was otherwise, they would have to all give some sort of related magic by your reasoning! So why just Heler?

Jeff has explained a few times pretty clearly that Gloranthan deities provide magic related to their cosmic role in the monomyth. That explains why this or that god provides or doesn't provide this or that magic. That's why Yelmalio doesn't provide much fighting magic, because although the initiates tend to often be  hoplite soldiers, their god's role in the cosmos isn't to be a war god, it's to be the god that keeps the lights on even when everything seems lost (I've argued in the past that if Yelmalio is missing any magic, it's some sort of "perseverance" magic like, say, letting you carry on even when at 0 HP or whatever). So that's why Heler doesn't give sex-change magic in the official RQG line, for whatever that's worth.

AFAIC you've got 3 solutions:

1. Just give Heler the Change Sex Rune spell and move on with your day! Maybe you don't agree with canon that "deities only provide magic related to their cosmic role in the monomyth". Go crazy, and give all your Glorantha deities a whole bunch of additional spells! That would probably be fun. Some of my players already have all the Rune magic of their god and it feels a bit, like... so what now?

2. Give Heler some myth that establishes their role in the cosmos as "the sex changer" or whatever. I have no idea how that would be relevant in the the monomyth. It would have to be different from Eurmal switching sexes to get by (or cause!) problems, obviously (his ability is an Illusion anyway). Then make up a Change Sex Rune spell. Enjoy the warm feeling that you stayed in the spirit of canon.

3. Make up a subcult of Heler that gives a Change Sex Rune spell by worshipping that aspect of Heler specifically. Or make a new associated cult that worships some sort of archetypal Water entity that is the source of all Water entities' abilities to be fluid in their shape and gender and sex and all that. Maybe it's Zaramak or Sramak themselves, or an aspect of them. Or make up a new Water deitiy. Enjoy the warm feeling of having expanded Glorantha the way Greg probably wanted.

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Lordabdul

[Qizilbashwoman]

8 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

I think that Heler is the perfect depiction of gender fluidity, and her/his followers don't see the need to change their body form. 

as a trans woman, I'd just like to point out that a desire for bodily change is varied in every community; binary trans people don't all want physical changes and nonbinary or gender-fluid folks can and do engage in body modification.

My ex is nonbinary and their desire to not fall onto the gender binary is not the same as their body dysphoria, which they chose to treat in a manner almost identical to my own (hormones, some surgery). Neither of us represents any kind of standard in our communities, though. I know trans people who only wish to present as male or female, not to alter their bodies per se, or not to alter them significantly.

My point is that gender is complex and some people have strong feelings about their bodies not congruent with how the larger society understands gender to work.

I wouldn't suggest Gloranthan humans are any different. Maybe Helerings can choose to learn a spell that shifts them to another form, letting them woo an Ernaldan one season and get bred another. (Sorry, that's just my youth speech there.)

Don't ask me about other races; in my Glorantha, Trolls are so strongly "matriarchal" because anyone can give birth, it's about status and power. Trolls either change reproductive organs like some species do in the real world or they don't have reproductive rolls like we do. The "matriarchs" are older, powerful Trolls, which males are small and young. Male gods like Zorak Zoran represent young males seeking glory and power; once they become female, everything changes for them.

This is why Argan Argar is so "surface": he's actually male, and so was the Only Old One, even though they are old and powerful. Exposure to Gbaji stripped this from affected Trolls. What makes Trollkin creepy is that they have non-Darkness bodies. And Argan Argar is their patron: he's kind of a pervert to Mistress Race Trolls, insofar as that word means "a society finds a gender and sexual role distasteful or offensive".

Also he wears sunglasses and a parasol. How can I be homophobic? My bitch is gay.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Qizilbashwoman