early '80s: RQ + Traveller = Star Frontiers ? (also: sci-fi aliens that are ALIEN)

[g33k]

Back in the day, TSR seems to have dabbled with some RQ/CoC/BRP(ish) mechanics and a Traveller(ish) sci-fi pastiche setting, to create "Star Frontiers."

(n.b. for those googling -- there was a recent debacle where someone decided to try to steal the (c) & (tm) (and the old 1980 logo) for "Star Frontiers" + "TSR" & launch a nuTSR + nuStarFrontiers; this endeavor... did not go well for them.  But it's unrelated to my query, noted only as a "beware" to the poor innocent Googler (if you're unaware, it's a genuinely sad story for the Gygax name) ) 

Anyhow, moving on...

Did anyone here ever play the 1980's StarFrontiers rpg?

I'm curious, in particular, about the core game-mechanic...

I know it used skill-centric roll-low d100 (like BRP is).  Also BRP-ish was that virtually anyone could learn virtually any skill; but it had a sort of semi-profession rule where your core aptitude (aka profession) made those core skills easier to get (mechanically "cheaper") than other skills.  My own Google'ing has found me that much.

(Semi-relevant is the DwD Studios "Frontier Space" RPG, which is an homage to the older Star Frontiers, and uses similar(ish) rules to the older game)

Did SF (the 80's original) have crits & fumbles?  What was the crit/fumble basis... what roll(s) got there?

Did SF have a Trav-style lifepath?  Or RQ "resistance rolls" or D&D "armor class" or what other sorts of subsystems or mechanical bits that might have been more (or less) similar to BRP, (A)D&D, Traveller, or other games of the era?

Edited December 5, 2023 by g33k
title

[David Scott]

I was an avid Traveller (and sci-fi) fan, hungry for new material. I bought Star Frontiers when it came out... and found it was crap. It was the first disappointing RPG product I'd ever bought. You can own it all here: https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/226710/star-frontiers-alpha-dawn. I thew it out as no one wanted it!

I got it just before I got Worlds of Wonder, and Future World was much better. The next year Other Suns came out, which apart from the furries was also amazing, setting the stage for the following year's Ring World, which was the pinnacle of BRP sci-fi for me.

Edited November 29, 2023 by David Scott

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

 

Anyhow, moving on...

Did anyone here ever play the 1980's StarFrontiers rpg?

Yeah, once or twice.

1 hour ago, g33k said:

I'm curious, in particular, about the core game-mechanic...

It was a very simple game.  Stats were rolled on %dice but adapted to a 30-70 stat range. Tasks were accomplished by rolling against an attribute, for instace shooting something would require a roll against DEX with a modfiers for range. .Skill were optional, being in the advanced rules and changed some things and added new things. In fact I think most of the rules were in the advanced rules book.

At the time, TSR was trying to branch out from D&D into other RPG genres and most of these attempts followed the paten of being very simple (simplistic would be more accurate) rules that almost required that you use the advanced rules to have a playable game. Indiana Jones (probably the worst RPG TSR even released) and the Marvel Super Hero RPG (FASERIP) being other examples, although the Marvel RPG got a decent overhaul with a advanced rules addition (I believe Gigi D'Arn wrote that they were turning int into an actual RPG). Most of the games failed although some had some merits and attracted a few fans. 

1 hour ago, g33k said:

I know it used skill-centric roll-low d100 (like BRP is).  Also BRP-ish was that virtually anyone could learn virtually any skill; but it had a sort of semi-profession rule where your core aptitude (aka profession) made those core skills easier to get (mechanically "cheaper") than other skills.  My own Google'ing has found me that much.

Not so much. Skills were an advanced rule and so not anyone could learn them, it depending on which rules the GM was using. Skills ranged up to level 6, andwere learned by spending experience points.There were 13 skills ground into three skill areas (Military, Technological, and Biosocial). Military skills cost 3 XP per level, Technical skills 4 XP per level, and Biosocial 5 XP per level. 

During the start of game you pick a primary skill area for each character. When buying a skill the cost is doubled if the skill is not in the character's primary area.

 

There were multiple ways to lean a skill, but these were optional and affected the cost to lean a skill and the time required, but didn't alter the XP cost. Similar to the often neglected training times to level up in AD&D.

 

Functionally the skills were iffy. In many cases adding skills made characters less capable. For example someone with a 60 DEX had a base to hit of 50%(-range penalty), in the basic rules, but  but if you used skills it would be reduced to 30%+ 10%Skill Level.

 

1 hour ago, g33k said:

(Semi-relevant is the DwD Studios "Frontier Space" RPG, which is an homage to the older Star Frontiers, and uses similar(ish) rules to the older game)

Yup, and IMO it's a somewhat batter game system too. 

1 hour ago, g33k said:

Did SF (the 80's original) have crits & fumbles?  What was the crit/fumble basis... what roll(s) got there?

Nope the game just used a simple success/fail roll. 

1 hour ago, g33k said:

Did SF have a Trav-style lifepath?  Or RQ "resistance rolls" or D&D "armor class" or what other sorts of subsystems or mechanical bits that might have been more (or less) similar to BRP, (A)D&D, Traveller, or other games of the era?

No, it barely had a chagen system, let alone a life path.. Basic chargen was:

• Roll for you eight stats, which were grouped into pairs (STR/STA, DEX/RS, INT/LOG, PER/LEA)
• pick a race and apply racial mods
• determine initiative modifier (Reaction Speed/10)
• name your character.

That was it.

Advanced rules added special abilities for each alien race, handedness, sex and starting money.

 

OVerall we are talking chargen and character rules than make Tunnels & Trolls look complex. The only sexception was the Knight Hawks starship COmbat rules as they were essentially a stand alone tactical boardgame that came with a role playing expansion so you could use it with Star Frontiers. But you can tell where TSR spent their time. 

 

RQ+Traveller it was not. 

But there was FASA Trek. 

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Atgxtg

[Mugen]

26 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

RQ+Traveller it was not. 

But there was FASA Trek. 

 

And Other Suns too ?

[Atgxtg]

1 minute ago, Mugen said:

And Other Suns too ?

Yeah, and a few others, (lets not forget Future * World). Other Suns is closer to RQ mechanically, FGU borrowed quite heavily from RQ/BRP on more than one occasion (Other Suns, Privateers & Gentlemen).  FASATrek had a lifepath system of sorts in the chargen, though, which helps a bit the the Traveller connection. 

I was just trying to emphais that Star Frontiers wasn't any sort of Space BRP type game. 

[AndreJarosch]

If you are searching for D100/BRp + Traveller i recommend getting M-SPACE from frostbyte books. 

[Ethereal]

Other Suns was never owned by FGU. Niall Shapero owns it. When I talked to Niall a few years ago he told me he still has and never gave up the rights to Other Suns. I tried to see if he would reprint it and he said no. By not giving up his rights to Other Suns he did not go through Legal issues that other creators associated with FGU (Fantasy Games Unlimited) did. Ex: "Space Opera" and "Villains and Vigilantes". As for Similarities Niall said that Steve Perrin helped develop/helped him when he was creating it. They were friends. As a GM though I found that "Worlds of Wonder" 'Future World' was my favorite to run. I'm more of a Sandbox GM.

As others have made suggestions to similar space RPG's already I would like to add one more. 'Worlds Beyond' by https://www.pigames.net/store/default.php . It is not BRP but very similiar. Instead of 8 characteristics it has 9. 4 primary races. Dolf (lizard like), Human, Sher'tazi (Insect-like, 8 limbs) and Swarr (Cat-like). Furries don't bother me. With advances in genetics (Up-lift/Neo species) and Animal/Artificial Intelligence combinations) anything is possible.

 

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Ethereal

[Atgxtg]

5 minutes ago, Ethereal said:

Other Suns was never owned by FGU. Niall Shapero owns it.

Yes but they did publish it. I think most of the FGU's games were written by independent authors who had to go to a game company such as  FGU to get their game published. Independent publishing was much harder back then. No desktop pulbishing to speak of, no PDFs, no print of demand, no self printing. If someone wanted to print a game they needed to pony up enough cash to hire a professional printer, and even most of the big companies back then were run on a shoestring budget out of someone's garage.  The whole Avalon Hill/RQ3 deal was made for somewhat similar reasons, although distribution probably matter as much or more there than the economics.

5 minutes ago, Ethereal said:

When I talked to Niall a few years ago he told me he still has and never gave up the rights to Other Suns. I tried to see if he would reprint it and he said no. By not giving up his rights to Other Suns he did not go through Legal issues that other creators associated with FGU (Fantasy Games Unlimited) did. Ex: "Space Opera" and "Villains and Vigilantes".

Which is something of a mixed bag. On the one hand the author kept the rights and control over Other Suns, on the other hand it's out of print and might never be seen again, whereas the stuff FGU controlled has become available in PDF form on Drivethru. There are a lot of good RPGs from the past that are sort of lost because of things like that. 

5 minutes ago, Ethereal said:

As for Similarities Niall said that Steve Perrin helped develop/helped him when he was creating it. They were friends.

That fits the time period. Back in the late 70s/early 80s the RPG market was made up of a lot of gamers who loved to game and who loved to show thier recent work to each other and get each other opinion on things. Superworld was Steve Perrin seeing in he could do something like Champions with RQ/BRP. Back then most designers knew of each other, and would have been flattered if someone used one of their ideas in their own RPG.

5 minutes ago, Ethereal said:

As a GM though I found that "Worlds of Wonder" 'Future World' was my favorite to run. I'm more of a Sandbox GM.

I wish that it had gotten a boxed set the way Superworld did. FW is mostly good stuff, it just that it had to squeeze a table of contents, chargen, alien races, money, setting, technology, starter adventure and a full page character sheet into 20 pages. 

 

 

[g33k]

7 hours ago, AndreJarosch said:

If you are searching for D100/BRp + Traveller i recommend getting M-SPACE from frostbyte books. 

I already have it!  😉

I was more wondering (re the SF game) if I had "missed out" on anything.

I'm building up a simple/easy pulpy-science-fantasy BRP chassis... looks likely to end up about halfway between the new BRP:UGE and DwD's d00lite.

[g33k]

5 hours ago, Ethereal said:

... When I talked to Niall a few years ago he told me he still has and never gave up the rights to Other Suns. I tried to see if he would reprint it and he said no...

Not giving up the IP... not reprinting... does he *intend* it to just wither, then?
D'you know if anyone has pointed out the new ORC edition of BRP to him?
Has he given any indication that he has any plans for it, at all?

 

5 hours ago, Ethereal said:

... I would like to add one more. 'Worlds Beyond' by https://www.pigames.net/store/default.php . It is not BRP but very similiar. Instead of 8 characteristics it has 9. 4 primary races. Dolf (lizard like), Human, Sher'tazi (Insect-like, 8 limbs) and Swarr (Cat-like). Furries don't bother me. With advances in genetics (Up-lift/Neo species) and Animal/Artificial Intelligence combinations) anything is possible.

Yes, I got the PI Games reprint of Worlds Beyond.  Looks like a decent little oldschool game!

"Furries" also don't bother me, for brain-off short-term play; but I find them slightly non-sensical as "aliens" (uplifted Terrans OK), as they just aren't alien enough and it grates after a while.

[Atgxtg]

18 hours ago, g33k said:

D'you know if anyone has pointed out the new ORC edition of BRP to him?

Why would that matter?

He already owns Other Suns, and could print it as a stand alone game. Nothing to be gained by putting it under the ORC umbrella, and accepting the restrictions and changes necessary to do so. 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Atgxtg

[Kloster]

2 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

WHay would that matter?

He already owns Other Suns, and could print it as a stand alone game. Nothing to be gained by putting it under the ORC umbrella, and accepting the restrictions and changes necessary to do so. 

Completely agreed here, not counting the fact it was a very good product. I much enjoyed it way back.

[g33k]

6 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Why would that matter?

...

Only that the "ORC" license hopefully still has a "shiny new" gloss on the market, and might make for some new attention/customers/players.

I don't know if he has to release it under the ORC to claim compatibility...?

[tooley1chris]

Star Frontiers was one of my first Sci-fi TSR games. I REALLY wanted to like it and DID like the premise and the races but the core book was lacking SO MUCH. (Where the hell was ANY starship info?🙄)

I should point out this was WELL B4 I knew anything about BRP (MUCH to my chagrin).

I thought Gamma World was a much better D&Dish mechanic...buuut I should say Star Frontiers (and even FASA Trek) might have inspired some little pieces of my Quasar System. I tried to leave a lot "open ended" so the Chroniclers could make it "their system" but a bit of SF is there. 😎

[Kloster]

6 hours ago, tooley1chris said:

Where the hell was ANY starship info?🙄

In Knight Hawks!!

[Atgxtg]

7 hours ago, Kloster said:

In Knight Hawks!!

Yeah, it was a stand alone supplement, which was pretty much par for Sci-Fi RPGs. 

[Ethereal]

On 11/29/2023 at 7:36 PM, g33k said:

Not giving up the IP... not reprinting... does he *intend* it to just wither, then?

I don't know, I didn't ask him last time I talked to him via E-mail.

He was writing Science fiction books at https://store.jarlidium.com/collections/all/niall-shapero , and I have found him on Social Media.
D'you know if anyone has pointed out the new ORC edition of BRP to him?

Last time I really talked to him was before ORC was talked about.

Has he given any indication that he has any plans for it, at all?

At the time he said something about doing a #2, but he made more money writing SF.

The last time I talked to him he was running a game in Los Angles and asked me if I was close to there. I had to tell him no.

Yes, I got the PI Games reprint of Worlds Beyond.  Looks like a decent little old school game!

"Furries" also don't bother me, for brain-off short-term play; but I find them slightly non-sensical as "aliens" (uplifted Terrans OK), as they just aren't alien enough and it grates after a while.

On this you have my curiosity. As Furries are not alien enough, what game has Aliens that you have played in or developed yourself that you like playing?

Thanks

 

 

[g33k]

On 12/3/2023 at 12:03 PM, Ethereal said:

"Furries" also don't bother me, for brain-off short-term play; but I find them slightly non-sensical as "aliens" (uplifted Terrans OK), as they just aren't alien enough and it grates after a while.

On this you have my curiosity. As Furries are not alien enough, what game has Aliens that you have played in or developed yourself that you like playing?

Several of the Traveller species spring to mind, particularly if you include related & spin-off games like "2300AD."
Also species from Jorune.

I strongly suspect Tekumel has some, but have never really explored the lore.

My experience of "furry" species is that they're too much "rubber forehead" aliens -- they're anthropomorphic animals that are too anthropomorphized:  basically humans, with (maybe) one or two stereotypical elements from the "animal" they're derived from... but usually still within the "human" range of motivations.

Obviously, much of it comes down to the player, rather than just the rules for "PC-species."
Nobody's likely to complain if someone role-plays a "rubber-forehead" alien as genuinely-alien, instead.
There's no roleplay-police to enforce "genuinely alien" roleplay on players of a weird alien species.

YMMV!

Edited December 5, 2023 by g33k
at the table play(ers)

[Jakob]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

My experience of "furry" species is that they're too much "rubber forehead" aliens -- they're anthropomorphic animals that are too anthropomorphized:  basically humans, with (maybe) one or two stereotypical elements from the "animal" they're derived from... but usually still within the "human" range of motivations.

Let me add to the "furries" derailment of this thread  - I'm also not that fond of furries in sf; to me, they feel like "convenient fantasies"; we are used to thinking of wolfes, dogs, cats, bears and mice in an anthropomorphic way, anyway. We're used to ascribing them human characteristics, to interpret their behaviour as an expression of things that we think and feel, as well. We often associate them with positive character traits or with traits that just seem kind of cool. We often feel that we have a relationship to them that is similar to our relationship to humans, anyway, so further humanizing them is a trivial effort.

Therefore, I have a hard time accepting them as "alien" (even though all these animals, in reality, are probably a LOT more alien to us then we think). They feel too familiar, to relatable. I have a much easier time accepting insect-, reptile-, arthropod- or octupus-like aliens. It's not that it is much more likely that those would exist than furries - it's just that while playing a reptile-creature, I have a much easier time feeling that I'm playing something that is quite definitely not-human than while playing a cat-creature (which ends up just being a more badass type of human).

Edited December 5, 2023 by Jakob

[Atgxtg]

59 minutes ago, g33k said:

My experience of "furry" species is that they're too much "rubber forehead" aliens -- they're anthropomorphic animals that are too anthropomorphized:  basically humans, with (maybe) one or two stereotypical elements from the "animal" they're derived from... but usually still within the "human" range of motivations.

I think that is basically true of most "alien species" in fantasy and sci-fi fiction and rpgs. Pretty much all the 'named" species I can think of from fiction are basically humans with a few odd cultural and physical quirks.

 

59 minutes ago, g33k said:

Obviously, much of it comes down to the player, rather than just the rules for "PC-species."

I think that depends on what the game gives the player to work with. A player can't really just creature a whole new culture and manner of behavior to an existing species. The player has to work within the parameters of what has already been established. 

 

59 minutes ago, g33k said:

Nobody's likely to complain if someone role-plays a "rubber-forehead" alien as genuinely-alien, instead.

They will if they act counter to what the alien is supposed to be like. If a PC Wookiee talks and behaves  like a professor from Oxford, wears a three piece suit and a bowler hat, and disavows what cultural details we've been given so far, people are going to want a good explanation.

59 minutes ago, g33k said:

There's no roleplay-police to enforce "genuinely alien" roleplay on players of a weird alien species.

Nor do I think there is a way for humans to act "genuinely alien" in the first place, since we've never encountered any aliens that we could use as a reference. So aliens end up acting like odd humans because we as humans, understand humans, and use them as the base template for our conceptual aliens. THen we make them differernt from humans in a few ways to make them seem alien. 

Anything "genuinely alien" might behave in waves that we wouldn't understand. Alternatively, it might be that any sentient aliens might have to be so functionally similar to humans that they might indeed behave and think very similar to us.  For instance, just to develop space travel would probably require an understanding of mathematics, physics and other sciences similar enough to our own to ensure some similarities in though processes. 

 

[g33k]

45 minutes ago, Jakob said:

Let me add to the "furries" derailment of this thread  ...

As the OP of this thread, I hearby declare this issue NOT to be a derailment... and I have made it so.
(mwaaaa-ha-ha-ha!  Fear my retconning powerz! )
 

47 minutes ago, Jakob said:

Let me add to the "furries" derailment of this thread  - I'm also not that fond of furries in sf; to me, they feel like "convenient fantasies"; we are used to thinking of wolfes, dogs, cats, bears and mice in an anthropomorphic way, anyway. We're used to ascribing them human characteristics, to interpret their behaviour as an expression of things that we think and feel, as well. We often associate them with positive character traits or with traits that just seem kind of cool. We often feel that we have a relationship to them that is similar to our relationship to humans, anyway, so further humanizing them is a trivial effort.

Therefore, I have a hard time accepting them as "alien" (even though all these animals, in reality, are probably a LOT more alien to us then we think). They feel too familiar, to relatable. I have a much easier time accepting insect-, reptile-, arthropod- or octupus-like aliens. It's not that it is much more likely that those would exist than furries - it's just that while playing a reptile-creature, I have a much easier time feeling that I'm playing something that is quite definitely not-human than while playing a cat-creature (which ends up just being a more badass type of human).

To me, the basic concept of a "furry" is that of an anthropomorphized animal.  It's just faster to type "furry" than... that other thing.

But yeah, we've been deeply enculturated -- since Aesop -- that these are just people; stupid ones, clever ones, cruel ones, kind ones.  But people like ourselves, and those we know.  It's our go-to vision, and has been individually since we were learning to read, and collectively for 2500 years or more.

And when Niven declares his "Kzin" aren't really anthro-tigers... frankly, he becomes a head/ass ouroboros, because he writes them entirely as anthro-tigers.  OTOH, I think he put some real effort in with the Puppeteers (and later, partnered with Pournelle, did an OK job with the Moties & the Fithp too).  Marc Miller filed off the serial-numbers (oh wait, no he didn't; he just buffed lightly and said he did) with Traveller's Aslan(Kzin) and the K'kree(Puppeteers) and basically inherited the virtues & flaws of each.

FWIW, Runequest actually offers us a good model to consider:
Take their "Elves" -- these are literally sentinet motile plants.  They think like plants.  "Infanticide?  meh, the forest needed more mulch this year.  Besides, the dryad said we'd be having 3 mast-years in a single decade, some time in the next 30-40 years."  I'm not sure they're great exemplars for a non-human PC'able species, but hell yeah they're alien.
Dwarfs?  Scarcely a shred of independent thought, whose only "drive" is to repair the world-machine.  Food isn't hungered-for, nutrients are a mandated part of maintenance.  Love / romance / sex?  Nope / nope / only as assigned & giving no pleasure.  Etc etc etc... Literally zero human motivations.
Trolls, now... "dark men."  Actually the most "human-like" of the lot... and they are insatiably-hungry darkness-demons from the Underworld!  Ehhhrm...??!?
( And sci-fi thinks  they  do "aliens" ... <heh> )

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

I think that is basically true of most "alien species" in fantasy and sci-fi fiction and rpgs. Pretty much all the 'named" species I can think of from fiction are basically humans with a few odd cultural and physical quirks...

Agreed.  This is, I think, largely for good reason -- human authors writing for a human audience, who need human motivations to empathize with.

It's a hell of a lot harder to create something really alien, and then write it... and if you're a professional author, you want the public to like it, read it... above all, buy it.  So the risk/reward of "genuinely alien" looks like a high barrier.
 

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

... that depends on what the game gives the player to work with. A player can't really just creature a whole new culture and manner of behavior to an existing species. The player has to work within the parameters of what has already been established ...  if they act counter to what the alien is supposed to be like. If a PC Wookiee talks and behaves  like a professor from Oxford, wears a three piece suit and a bowler hat, and disavows what cultural details we've been given so far, people are going to want a good explanation.

It does depend, to an extent.  But most aliens -- even rubber-forehead ones -- get at least a nod or two towards "alien motivations."  Players could lean-in on those, and deprecate most "typically human" behaviors; but IME few do so (Wookies, fwiw, seem entirely non-alien to me (intentionally so, as noted above)).
 

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

... Nor do I think there is a way for humans to act "genuinely alien" in the first place, since we've never encountered any aliens that we could use as a reference. So aliens end up acting like odd humans because we as humans, understand humans, and use them as the base template for our conceptual aliens. THen we make them differernt from humans in a few ways to make them seem alien. 

Anything "genuinely alien" might behave in waves that we wouldn't understand ...

Insofar as we have no experience with aliens, you're 100% correct.  "Genuinely alien" is a genuinely-meaningless (no real-world referents) phrase.

Nevertheless, I think it's at least theoretically meaningful, and a worthwhile goal within sci-fi ... and for sci-fi RPGs, too.  If we want playable alien species, we likely need to either allow some human motivations (sufficient to adventure together) or else "alien motivations" that allow for "cooperation on adventures."

 

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

... For instance, just to develop space travel would probably require an understanding of mathematics, physics and other sciences similar enough to our own to ensure some similarities in though processes. 

Sci-fi does have some interesting & much-less-human aliens, IMO, with decent portrayals of being unable to communicate and/or incredibly-alien characteristics.  A few examples...

• Rocheworld (by Forward) postulated a semiliquid "Flouwen" species whose math was based entirely on a somatic geometrical sense, with nothing numeric/algebraic/calculated at all.
• A Fire Upon the Deep (by Vinge) had "Tines" who were ultrasonic-linked group-minds whose minds/personalities would alter as the individuals entered/departed range of the sonic connection.
• Singularity Sky (by Stross) portrayed an entire multispecies/multisentient ecosystem that existed to promote infotech/communications, migrating between starsystems in nano hibernation and "blossoming" in the presence of low-tech (in "need" of the comm's (because setting up comms is the need of the ecosystem)) + resources (to build their ecosystem).
• The Chanur novels (by Cherryh) had several species of "methane breathers" who were frightening to the oxy-breathing species (most of whom were pretty much "rubber-forehead" aliens) because their tech was sooo good but it was so hard to communicate with them -- methane-breather races were mostly just portrayed as enigmas, unpredictable forces of nature, occasionally as semi-oracles insofar as one could sometimes kinda-sorta glean something from some of their communications.

So... it's do-able; at least in a novelistic context.  Not sure about the PC'ability of Flouwen, Tines, or Chanur-style "Methane Breathers" however!

 

[g33k]

On 11/29/2023 at 10:14 AM, David Scott said:

... I bought Star Frontiers when it came out...

You can own it all here: https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/226710/star-frontiers-alpha-dawn.

On 11/29/2023 at 10:16 AM, Atgxtg said:

Yeah, once or twice.

It was a very simple game...

TYVM for your reviews, gentlemen!
It lets me know that I have no need to buy the game (I had already found the link) -- I don't doubt I could run a better BRP-sci-fi out of my own head, no rulebook needed.

 

[Atgxtg]

4 hours ago, g33k said:

Agreed.  This is, I think, largely for good reason -- human authors writing for a human audience, who need human motivations to empathize with.

💯💯💯

Exactly. A human is wirting it for humans to read it. So setting aside the question of if a human author could write a convincing genuine alien, they wouldn't want to, as the audience would still need to understand and possible relate to said alien. THen there are the reasons the author used an alien in the story in the first place. 

 

4 hours ago, g33k said:

It's a hell of a lot harder to create something really alien, and then write it... and if you're a professional author, you want the public to like it, read it... above all, buy it.  So the risk/reward of "genuinely alien" looks like a high barrier.

Yup. Plus until we have an actual alien on hand to critique it, how would we really know if the author got it right in the first place?

4 hours ago, g33k said:

It does depend, to an extent.  But most aliens -- even rubber-forehead ones -- get at least a nod or two towards "alien motivations."  Players could lean-in on those, and deprecate most "typically human" behaviors; but IME few do so (Wookies, fwiw, seem entirely non-alien to me (intentionally so, as noted above)).

Yeah, but in most sci-fi aliens either act like humans with some strange personality quirks, or as some sort of animal, insect or plant with human intelligence. So players in RPGs are generally stuck falling back on old tropes.  

4 hours ago, g33k said:

Insofar as we have no experience with aliens, you're 100% correct.  "Genuinely alien" is a genuinely-meaningless (no real-world referents) phrase.

At least that's what they want us to think. ;

4 hours ago, g33k said:

Nevertheless, I think it's at least theoretically meaningful, and a worthwhile goal within sci-fi ... and for sci-fi RPGs, too.  If we want playable alien species, we likely need to either allow some human motivations (sufficient to adventure together) or else "alien motivations" that allow for "cooperation on adventures."

Yeah. I think as far as alien-type aliens go, Traveller probably does it the best. 2300AD in particular had some interesting aliens, from the friendly bio-enginnering, Pentapods, to the antagonistic no-pain no-brain Kafers.

4 hours ago, g33k said:

 

Sci-fi does have some interesting & much-less-human aliens, IMO, with decent portrayals of being unable to communicate and/or incredibly-alien characteristics.  A few examples...

• Rocheworld (by Forward) postulated a semiliquid "Flouwen" species whose math was based entirely on a somatic geometrical sense, with nothing numeric/algebraic/calculated at all.
• A Fire Upon the Deep (by Vinge) had "Tines" who were ultrasonic-linked group-minds whose minds/personalities would alter as the individuals entered/departed range of the sonic connection.
• Singularity Sky (by Stross) portrayed an entire multispecies/multisentient ecosystem that existed to promote infotech/communications, migrating between starsystems in nano hibernation and "blossoming" in the presence of low-tech (in "need" of the comm's (because setting up comms is the need of the ecosystem)) + resources (to build their ecosystem).
• The Chanur novels (by Cherryh) had several species of "methane breathers" who were frightening to the oxy-breathing species (most of whom were pretty much "rubber-forehead" aliens) because their tech was sooo good but it was so hard to communicate with them -- methane-breather races were mostly just portrayed as enigmas, unpredictable forces of nature, occasionally as semi-oracles insofar as one could sometimes kinda-sorta glean something from some of their communications.

So... it's do-able; at least in a novelistic context.  Not sure about the PC'ability of Flouwen, Tines, or Chanur-style "Methane Breathers" however!

Sure, but there is a difference between what works in media and what works in an RPG. For example, in the old d6 Star Wars RPG, Wookiee don't speak Basic (i.e. English), but the game suggests that some other PC take the language and  be able to understand the Wookiee, so that the Wookiee can converse (normally) with the other PCs. Otherwise, a PC that cannot communicate with the rest of the group would be a significant obstacle to game play.

So in general aliens tend to be humans with some odd mannerisms and some special traits that differentiate them from standard humans, and for the most part have to be. I suppose how well that workd out depends on how well the alien, and it's culture are fleshed out, as well as how well the player can role-play it. 

 

Hmm, I wonder how a game would go if everyone though they were alien or human and it turned out they weren't?

 

[Atgxtg]

4 hours ago, g33k said:

TYVM for your reviews, gentlemen!
It lets me know that I have no need to buy the game (I had already found the link) -- I don't doubt I could run a better BRP-sci-fi out of my own head, no rulebook needed.

 

Probably. If you can post an idea of what you are looking for I can probably suggest a few RPGs closer to the mark. For, instance, I'd say that Pacesetter's Star Ace was probably functionally closer to what Star Frontiers was trying to be that Star Frontiers was. That is a fairly simple Sci-Fi RPG that was fairly easy to learn and play. Star Ace used the same basic game system as Chill, but optimized for Sci-Fi rather than horror.