Unofficial and Unauthorized sourcebooks... for feedback

[sladethesniper]

OK, so I just made one for the 3 Musketeers and uploaded it in the GM tools area. I am currently working on about 100 of these things for free. I made them so they are pretty self explanatory for the NPC write-up for D100 games, and the bottom part with the icon is for use with the wargame, Strife (also uploaded here).

Any feedback is welcome.

-STS

[sladethesniper]

OK, just made another one for the movie "300" about the Battle of Thermopylae.

Same deal as before. The next one is going to be Aliens vs Predator vs USCMC and a lot bigger than the previous two combined.

Happy Gaming.

-STS

[sladethesniper]

Since I used movie pics and reprsentative art taken from the internet, they were taken down. I asked about fair use and the whole purpose being to drive interest in the original works and them being free, but have received no answer.

Until I do receive clarification, I'll just put them up on my itch.io page only and let people know that I put up another one over there. 

Aliens vs Predator vs USCMC is just about ready... finishing off the UPP and 3WE units... and if you know what those are, then you are the type of fan I'm aiming for!

-STS

[g33k]

On 1/16/2024 at 10:36 PM, sladethesniper said:

Since I used movie pics and reprsentative art taken from the internet, they were taken down.   I asked about fair use...

It's always possible they got DMCA'ed by the IP owner(s).
I doubt Chaosium sees it as worthwhile to actually defend it in court.  And, given that BRPC is now Chaosium's official forum (and staff are active here):  it's relevant that Chaosium produces media commercially, making individuals' "fair use" a harder defense to claim on this site.

There's already an Alien RPG, so BRP'izing "Alien" is pretty explicitly using someone's already-licensed IP in a competing product; the fact that you are offering it "for free" doesn't let Chaosium (who actually does the hosting, and sells competing RPGs) offer it for free; similarly for other peoples' artwork (used without permission).

I expect if you found some explicitly royalty-free artwork ("taken from the internet" does not suffice) -- or did it yourself; or commissioned an artist -- you could get away with stuff like 3 Musketeers, as the Dumas isn't (c)'ed; but not using images from any of the movies.
 

n.b. - I Am Not A Lawer, do not rely upon me for legal advice, hire your own attorney.

[sladethesniper]

Nah, I am not BRP-ing Alien... I'm not even making it as an RPG. It is a wargame that uses a percentile roll under mechanic for skills.

There is no physical wargame for the Aliens universe, or one for the 3 Musketeers, or 300 specifically. 

Making ugly books with walls of text was fine in 1981, and trolling around the internet for bad public domain scans isn't how I want to spend my days. 

No art, ugly art, cheap art or AI art that people want to lose their mind over? Hmmm... I could look for the 1 picture of the M-232 combat buggy used by the USCMC then wonder if it is owned by Dark Horse or is it Marvel, or Disney? Maybe that thing belongs to Fox? What about each type of Predator armor since there are a few of them... or just not even bother and save myself the headache and say adios muchachos to 577 pages of text.

You know, people really will go out of their way to stop things they can't control...

How much IP infringement is ^^^ that?

-STS

Edited January 20 by sladethesniper

[Chaot]

On 1/17/2024 at 1:36 AM, sladethesniper said:

Until I do receive clarification, I'll just put them up on my itch.io page only and let people know that I put up another one over there. 

Cool! I'd like to check them out. Do you have a link?

[Atgxtg]

On 1/17/2024 at 1:36 AM, sladethesniper said:

Since I used movie pics and reprsentative art taken from the internet, they were taken down. I asked about fair use and the whole purpose being to drive interest in the original works and them being free, but have received no answer.

Yeah that's the thing about using art or owned IPs. I'd suggest either not using art, or use art that is in the public domain.

As for something that touches on an IP, such as Aliens, you best approach is to remove any IP specific stuff and replace it with homemade or generic substitutes. Yes, it's not ideal, but unless you can get a license, it's the only way you'll be able to put stuff up here without problems. Keep in mind that the folk at Chaosium and Triff need to protect themselves from any claims of wrongdoing.

 

BTW, once you get the posting bugs worked out, you might want to send a message to TrippyHippy about these, as it would appear to fit right into his "mini-settings" idea. 

 

 

[Rick Meints]

This is not legal advice. In general, using someone's Intellectual Property without a specific license/permission isn't going to be allowed on this site. It does not matter if your efforts are "for free" or not intended as commercial use. Fair use, in general, is meant for reviews, critiques, and parody. Fair use isn't broad. For example, using someone else's IP in a free game is not fair use. In the end, you are potentially denying the IP holder of current or future revenue.

We remove certain materials from this site because we do not want to potentially be liable for someone's misuse or unauthorized use of someone else's IP.

[Atgxtg]

16 hours ago, sladethesniper said:

Hmmm... I could look for the 1 picture of the M-232 combat buggy used by the USCMC then wonder if it is owned by Dark Horse or is it Marvel, or Disney?

Now there I might be able to help you. In the US, most photos of military gear, and vehicles taken by government agencies are considered to be in the public domain. Apparently years ago it was decided that as all this stuff was paid for with taxpayer money, the taxpayers owned the gear, and so if was considered wrong to charge people for photos of stuff that they owned.  

It doesn't apply to all photos, but generally speaking you can usually find a PD image of US military gear without much trouble.

 

For instance, the USMC have released this  photo of the ULCV  https://www.marcorsyscom.marines.mil/Photos/igphoto/2003237282/ into the public domain, although they do ask that you credit the photographer. 

 

[sladethesniper]

2 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Now there I might be able to help you. In the US, most photos of military gear, and vehicles taken by government agencies are considered to be in the public domain. Apparently years ago it was decided that as all this stuff was paid for with taxpayer money, the taxpayers owned the gear, and so if was considered wrong to charge people for photos of stuff that they owned.  

It doesn't apply to all photos, but generally speaking you can usually find a PD image of US military gear without much trouble.

 

For instance, the USMC have released this  photo of the ULCV  https://www.marcorsyscom.marines.mil/Photos/igphoto/2003237282/ into the public domain, although they do ask that you credit the photographer. 

 

The M-232 Combat Buggy is used by the Colonial Marines (of Aliens) for fast attack and was described twice and shown once in a Dark Horse comic. It then made it's way onto the Aliens wiki and the Colonial Marines Operations Manual for the Aliens RPG.

It isn't a real thing.

-STS

[sladethesniper]

3 hours ago, Rick Meints said:

This is not legal advice. In general, using someone's Intellectual Property without a specific license/permission isn't going to be allowed on this site. It does not matter if your efforts are "for free" or not intended as commercial use. Fair use, in general, is meant for reviews, critiques, and parody. Fair use isn't broad. For example, using someone else's IP in a free game is not fair use. In the end, you are potentially denying the IP holder of current or future revenue.

We remove certain materials from this site because we do not want to potentially be liable for someone's misuse or unauthorized use of someone else's IP.

I 100% understand and agree with you. 

This isn't criticism, just an obsevation. Lets say I make a sci-fi universe with all the stuff I love using rules I love (BRP) and put it all together in a big sprawling timeline so that players can insert themselves in whatever era appeals to them. Then, I can make a wargame allowing for bigger battles in that same setting (like how Battletech and Mechwarrior work together).

How long before it is called derivative, uninspired, unoriginal, a bloated mess, a fantasy heartbreaker, or too scattered. Then the wargame is called out for being strange because it isn't focused on a singular time period, or balanced for tournament play, or not even a game.

So, make a game about a liscensed IP (Blade Runner, Alien, Altered Carbon, Dune, etc.) that cost a LOT of money then load it up with beautiful artwork and the fully developed setting created over decades (whether some parts make sense or not), toss in an OK game engine probably with funny dice and then sell it for... $50.00 USD so I have to learn a whole new system and buy some dumb dice. Or, make something like it, but not the same.... and try and sell that. Or, make the thing I actually want, but it just sits in my computer forever. 

nvm, just bitching since I wasted a lot of time. 

-STS

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, sladethesniper said:

The M-232 Combat Buggy is used by the Colonial Marines (of Aliens) for fast attack and was described twice and shown once in a Dark Horse comic. It then made it's way onto the Aliens wiki and the Colonial Marines Operations Manual for the Aliens RPG.

It isn't a real thing.

-STS

Oops.😳

Edited January 21 by Atgxtg

[Ian Absentia]

1 hour ago, sladethesniper said:

nvm, just bitching since I wasted a lot of time. 

Not necessarily.  I think people here appreciate what you're trying to do, but it runs up against the common issue (and joy!) of RPGs -- playing in someone else's sandbox.

I could point you to a number of my favorite commercial RPGs and minis games that make reference to "alien xenomorphs" or "genestealers" that are clearly well-intentioned stand-ins for a more widely known intellectual property.  It can be done, but it has to be circumspect when presenting it to the public.  Once it's in the hands of the players, they can call it whatever they want and proceed at will.

Now, art is another matter.  I still have a copy of the fan-produced Interstellar Colonial Space Marines sourcebook for a far-future Call of Cthulhu project that used all sorts of unauthorised still art from Aliens and Halo.  It was chased off the Internet by the owners of those licenses with extreme prejudice.

If you have a good game that provides players with the tools to slot in their favorite IP in a way that isn't served by other commercial resources, find a way to make a broadly applicable game that's recognisable, but avoids borrowing direct likenesses.  I realise that it may be frustrating, but have faith in your game that belongs to you, not art that belongs to someone else.

!i!

[sladethesniper]

I agree with you.

But, the whole point was to have a sort of "who would win" wargame with Roy Batty leading a team of Replicants against the Xenos on Anchorpoint station, or what if Conan was in Diablo? I've already gone the way of my own setting and I love it, but this was deliberately to mix and match settings like how Heroclix, Legendary, or Heroscape did (but with actual realistic stats and not gameified balanced stats).

Who doesn't want to see the Armored Titan get wrecked by a Gundam?

I'm still going to do it so I can have Bolos in Battletech, just not going to put it anywhere. It will remain a passion project, just a private one.

-STS

Here is the list I'm working with:

Spoiler

3 Musketeers            

300 (movie)

Aliens v. Predator (& USCMC)

Appleseed  

Army of Darkness    

Assassins Creed        

Attack on Titan         

Avatar (Anime)         

Avatar (Sci-Fi)           

Babylon 5   

Battlestar Galactica 

Battletech   

Black Lagoon             

Blade Runner            

Blade            

Bleach          

Boondock Saints      

Borderlands               

Buffy/Angel

Call of Duty

Charlies Angels         

Charmed     

Chronicles of Riddick

Command and Conquer

Conan/Red Sonja    

Cyberpunk 

DC 

Diablo          

Disney & Kingdom Hearts

District 9     

Doctor Who               

Doom           

Dragonlance              

Dune            

Dungeons and Dragons

Equilibrium

Event Horizon           

Fairy Tail      

Farscape      

Fast and Furious      

Fighting Games (Soul Calibur, Tekken, Street Fighter, Killer Instinct, King of Fighters, etc.)

Final Fantasy series 

Firefly/Serenity        

Full Metal Alchemist

Game of Thrones     

Ghostbusters            

GI Joe           

Godzilla/Kaiju/Pacific Rim

Halo              

Harry Potter               

Hellboy        

Hellsing        

Hercules/Xena          

Hunger Games          

Image Comics (pre-DC)         

Inuyasha     

John Woo Films        

Jurassic Park              

Kill Bill          

Legacy of the Aldenata

Lord of the Rings     

LXG (League of Extraordinary Gentlemen)     

Mad Max    

Marvel         

Matador series         

Metal Gear 

Monster Hunter       

Mutant Chronicles  

My Hero Academia 

Narnia          

Ninja Scroll 

Overwatch 

Percy Jackson & Friends        

Pirates of the Caribbean

Planet of the Apes  

Power Rangers         

Rambo         

Red Dawn   

Resident Evil              

Rifts              

Robocop     

Robotech    

Sailor Moon              

Shadowrun

Sherlock Holmes      

Spartacus   

Star Trek      

Star Wars    

Starcraft II  

Stargate/Atlantis      

Starship Troopers    

Terminator 

The Expanse              

The Expendables      

The Hunted

The Lost Boys            

The Matrix  

The Mummy             

The Prophecy            

TMNT           

Tomb Raider              

Top Gun      

Transformers             

Trigun           

Twisted Metal           

Ultraviolet  

Umbrella Academy 

Underworld

Universal Monsters

Warcraft      

Warhammer 40k     

Watchmen 

Willow         

Witcher       

World of Darkness & Friends

X-Files          

 

Edited January 21 by sladethesniper

[Questbird]

Unfortunately in these litigious times all of these properties are owned by some corporation or another. The history of RPGs is littered with examples of games which have used some licensed IP or other -- with the blessing of the owner, mind you -- only to lose the rights to someone prepared to pay more, or for some other reason. This sometimes means entire games can no longer be sold by their original publishers. Eg. Lord of the Rings (ICE, Cubicle7 and now Free League), Elric of Melnibone (and various other Eternal Champions -- Chaosium), recently Conan (Modiphius recently lost the rights to another company which I think is making a D20 game), Lankhmar (TSR, Mongoose, Savage Worlds, Goodman Games). It's exacerbated by RPGs not traditionally making much money compared to their source material books or films, so the rights holders shop around for something which gives them more bucks.

[sladethesniper]

I am not a fan of the rentier class. 

Eventually, the project will see the light of day... perhaps as a "research" paper for my PhD? Colleges don't hold PhD's hostage like my Master's program holds my thesis hostage? 

-STS

[WisdomOfWombat]

But on the other hand, a lot RPGs that use cleverly filed off serial numbers are flourishing. Everybody who knows the franchise(s) quickly realizes what this is intended to be and celebrate it. Additionally, if you go that route, you can bundle different similar  „properties“ into a complete game. All you have to do, is being a bit creative about how you call things. Then use public domain artwork, and you are good to go. In most cases this won‘t lead to cries of „ripp-off“, but rather an admiration for a good design. Examples include Scum & Villainy (aka Firefly by way of  Blades in the Dark), Sigil & Shadows (World of Darkness by way of a D100 system), Liminal (essentially inspired by Rivers of London and other British Urban Fantasy with a lot more freedom in the setting), MonsterHearts (Buffy done in PbtA), Urban Shadows (World of Darkness using PbtA) or Mothership (which is really a more open version of Alien). All these games are stronger for just being inspired by instead of trying to be the real thing.

Edited January 22 by WisdomOfWombat

[davecake]

The Three Musketeers is not copyrighted though films and other derivate media  based on it may be, especially if you use images from them. Dumas does in 1802.

Sherlock Holmes is in the public domain too (Conan Doyle’s estate lost their last desperate grasping lawsuit over Enola Holmes, and now nothing of the original canon is left in copyright - but some things that originate in later films might be (this is none of the recent reimaginings wears a deerstalker hat).

A few things are more complicated. Some Lovecraft is definitely in the public domain (anything published before 1928), some is possibly, but it’s unlikely. Chaosium does have the Call of Cthulhu trademark, and it’s also licensing restriction on BRP, though.

Conan has until 2028. 
 

Everything else on the list is very much copyrighted, and is unlikely to leave it for decades. Your only hope is that the IP owners come up with a policy that allows fan work. 

 

[Kloster]

8 hours ago, davecake said:

The Three Musketeers is not copyrighted though films and other derivate media  based on it may be, especially if you use images from them. Dumas does in 1802.

Dumas died in 1870. This means, according to current EU laws (I don't know for other areas/countries) that his production is public domain since 1940, but moral rights don't end. You can not do what you want with Dumas's works: You just don't have to request permissions from rights owner. But movies (or other works) that use them have their own rights (that end 70 years after the death of the author).

[davecake]

14 hours ago, Kloster said:

This means, according to current EU laws (I don't know for other areas/countries) that his production is public domain since 1940, but moral rights don't end.

Moral rights:

1) aren’t internationally harmonised, even across the EU, and vary wildly and so may be very difficult to enforce internationally. This is contrast to economic rights under the Berne convention.

2) generally do not apply to derivative works, only to works with falsely claimed authorship or that deliberately misrepresents authorship. So it’s pretty you’d infringe moral rights if you simply claimed truthfully to be based on the works of Dumas, or alternatively if you made no such claim but got some inspiration from it. Creating derivative works is either an economic right, or sometimes (parody, for example) permitted, not a moral right. 

3) were created long after Dumas died, and in some cases have to be specifically asserted by the owner or transferred to an heir. It’s a pretty big stretch. 

Moral rights are important sometimes, but usually irrelevant to the question at issue, compared to economic rights and copy  rights. I can imagine situations where moral rights would matter, but it’s totally not what the situation under discussion. Note that, for example, the use of public domain works as gaming material in The Dracula Dossier to produce their own version of the novel Dracula by Bram Stoker. So moral rights is just a tangential discussion of something irrelevant. 
 

15 hours ago, Kloster said:

But movies (or other works) that use them have their own rights (that end 70 years after the death of the author).

Yes, and this a very important point. A lot of famous properties have a lot of derivative works and contributions to the ‘mythos’ that are part of the original and often under copyright. The original not being under copyright doesn’t mean other associated things aren’t. Particularly film or tv images. You can’t just take an old story, and use much more recent illustrations. 
And sometimes, something we think of as part of the original turns out not to be.
Winnie the Pooh is out of copyright, but Disney’s version isn’t, so you probably can’t have your version consistently wear a red shirt. You can have the god Thor appear in your works, even in a comic (eg a version of Thor appears an issue of the Sandman, unrelated to Marvels Thor), but you need to quite clear about it if you want to avoid trouble. 

But often, even if it's not the original authors work, it’s still fine - Sherlock’s deerstalker cap wasn’t  invented by Conan Doyle, but it’s old enough  it turns out it’s out of copyright in its own right.