Mastako's Rune Spells

[That_Old-Hammer]

This is really not a massive deal but is there a reason why the Mastako's cult seems to be missing some fairly obvious spells?

Things like Leap, Fleetfoot and Spryness from the Red Book of Magic seem to me like they'd fit right in to their domain.

I'm wondering if this is a mechanical issue or whether there are lore reasons why Mastakos wouldn't grant access to these spells for his initiates.

Fleetfoot says that it can only be cast on initiates of Pamalt or Pamalt associates but Pamalt doesn't possess the Movement rune as far as I can tell from the Prosopedia.

Is Orlanth's ability to jump separate from his buddy Mastakos? You'd think he'd teach him how but he does show him how to fly so I guess that evens things out.

[PhilHibbs]

Moving whilst actually passing through the intervening space? How terribly mundane!

But yes, good point, Mobility is the only physical speed buff they get. Fleetfoot is an obvious choice. To me, the Proteus and Meld Form really came out of leftfield, I didn't know that Mastakos was a shapechanger. Sure, Movement is also the Change Rune, so there's space for shapechanging abilities in a Movement-based deity.

Anyone know the mythical source of his shapechanging?

[That_Old-Hammer]

8 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

 

To me, the Proteus and Meld Form really came out of leftfield, I didn't know that Mastakos was a shapechanger. Sure, Movement is also the Change Rune, so there's space for shapechanging abilities in a Movement-based deity.

 

Yes! To me too, but it somewhat made sense to me in a way by proxy of Larnste, who also has doubled Movement Runes and through them Sartar. I don't quite remember exactly but I recall Sartar being called a Larnsting, someone who could presumably use the magic of Larnste and Sartar famously changed a bunch of people into ants or termites.

Although, it has to be said that apparently, Sartar marked the walls of Boldhome by jumping around faster and further than any person has any right to jump. So Larnste would have been a Leaper too. Maybe Mastakos slept through that class.

[David Scott]

6 hours ago, That_Old-Hammer said:

Spryness

• Spryness is from the Travelling Stone which is a broken piece of Larnste who is now embodied by Mastakos.
• Fleetfoot is from Jmijie, who is the Pamaltelan mask of Mastakos.
• Leap, Orlanth Adventurous is defined by the Movement Rune, but isn't the owner. The owner has the greatest scope in the Rune, so the root of the magic is Mastakos. So you could have a Mastakos shrine that gives Leap. As as he's usually only worshipped in temples of Orlanth (and Magasta) Orlanth Adventurous is far more common. 

7 hours ago, That_Old-Hammer said:

Fleetfoot says that it can only be cast on initiates of Pamalt or Pamalt associates but Pamalt doesn't possess the Movement rune as far as I can tell from the Prosopedia.

You don't need the Rune to have it cast on you (Jmijie has the Movement Rune). If you take Fleetfoot as Pamalt initiate, like all associate cult spells - you'd need to improve the relevant Rune affinity, in this case Movement.

[PhilHibbs]

3 hours ago, David Scott said:

You don't need the Rune to have it cast on you (Jmijie has the Movement Rune). If you take Fleetfoot as Pamalt initiate, like all associate cult spells - you'd need to improve the relevant Rune affinity, in this case Movement.

I guess this is like Issaries getting Analyze Magic from Lhankor Mhy, but Issaries doesn't have the Truth rune.

The restriction does imply that it's a Pamalt spell, though, but now we know better.

Edited May 16 by PhilHibbs

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I guess this is like Issaries getting Analyze Magic from Lhankor Mhy, but Issaries doesn't have the Truth rune.

Yes. It's as Casting Associated Cult Rune Magic (RQG 283 / Mythology 149): This Rune is often different from the Runes of the initiate’s primary god.

It's the individuals Runes that are important for casting Rune magic, not the god's.

[French Desperate WindChild]

6 hours ago, David Scott said:

Fleetfoot is from Jmijie, who is the Pamaltelan mask of Mastakos.

so it means that, if any Mastakos Heroes visit Pamaltela and, studying the Jmijie cult, conclude that Mastakos = Jmijie, they may come back in Dragon Pass and "open" the option to learn any Jmijie spells Mastakos does not have (yet) ?

Just a new thought, it may be interesting to have another format then :

separate cults and gods.

Something like :

the god X's powers/spells are A, B, C, D, E

In Sartar, the cult of X knows A, B, C

In Pamalt, the cult of X, calling only its mask Y, knows A, D

And in Boldhome, the very confidential subcult of X the hidden knows in addition E, but it priests teach it only for those who meet requirements alpha and omega

[Joerg]

Mastakos - while a portion of Larnste - has a very distinct parentage from Jmijie (another portion or evolution of Larnste, adapted to the lands of Pamalt's Necklace, but devoid of any watery nature). I would regard them (and other motion entities) more like siblings or cousins than as direct aspects of one another. Not that that would stop mutual use of Mobility/Change shrines.

[radmonger]

10 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

so it means that, if any Mastakos Heroes visit Pamaltela and, studying the Jmijie cult, conclude that Mastakos = Jmijie, they may come back in Dragon Pass and "open" the option to learn any Jmijie spells Mastakos does not have (yet) ?

There is a similar case in the Earth Godesses book, between Asrelia and Aleshmara, who is listed specifically as a subservient cult (and not subcult or associate, as you might expect),. My personal canon is that this is explained by the cults book only covering Genertela, where all worship of her is via Pamaltelan priestesses imported at the expense of another Earth cult.

Great Storm temples doing the same to movement and storm gods from around the world seems entirely plausible. The oceans have been open for long enough that for something as easy as showing up at a widespread temple and seeing an obvious affinity, it has perhaps already been done.

 

 

[Revilo Divad Of Dyoll]

15 hours ago, That_Old-Hammer said:

This is really not a massive deal but is there a reason why the Mastako's cult seems to be missing some fairly obvious spells?

Things like Leap, Fleetfoot and Spryness from the Red Book of Magic seem to me like they'd fit right in to their domain.

I'm wondering if this is a mechanical issue or whether there are lore reasons why Mastakos wouldn't grant access to these spells for his initiates.

Fleetfoot says that it can only be cast on initiates of Pamalt or Pamalt associates but Pamalt doesn't possess the Movement rune as far as I can tell from the Prosopedia.

Is Orlanth's ability to jump separate from his buddy Mastakos? You'd think he'd teach him how but he does show him how to fly so I guess that evens things out.

Game balance.  You can't give a minor god too many cool spells.  I mean, Proteus and Teleport?  Anything else would be overkill.

FWIW, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that there are obscure shrines to Mastakos that do teach other movement-related spells (one per shrine, so the players have to search).

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 hour ago, Revilo Divad Of Dyoll said:

Game balance.  You can't give a minor god too many cool spells. 

Arguably, Mastakos already has too many cool spells.  Plus all common rune spells, which is unusual for small cults.

I agree with @PhilHibbs that Proteus came out of left field.  Perhaps there will be further info later, or when the Water cults book is published.

I also agree that at least some of Leap et.al. makes sense for Mastakos.  As @David Scott has helpfully suggested.

[Joerg]

While Mastakos is a rather small cult and should be relatively unimportant, he is the current Owner of the Mobiity/Change rune, the heir of Larnste, and thereby entitled to some greater overall importance much like Humakt (heir of Kargan Tor) or Chalana Arroy (heiress of Harana Ilor, and a direct daughter of Glorantha). He has a powerful father, too, and inherits some of the more interesting water stuff.

The RQ3 version of Mastakos did not get Proteus (except possibly as associate magic from Triolina, not that I would recall that), that spell belonged to the ancestress of the (Triolini) merfolk. (There seem to have been other lineages from the Manthi.)

The Melibite version of Emilla (a half-merger with the Blue Moon goddess) might be at least as much fun to explore as Orlanth's charioteer (whom he liberated from an over-protective parent).

[PhilHibbs]

10 hours ago, David Scott said:

• Spryness is from the Travelling Stone which is a broken piece of Larnste who is now embodied by Mastakos.

Is Travelling Stone going to make it into one of the volumes? I see on The Well that it was in the preview.

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Proteus came out of left field.  Perhaps there will be further info later, or when the Water cults book is published.

Only because we didn't used to know that Mastakos was a Water god and Magasta's charioteer before he became Orlanth's. 

4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Is Travelling Stone going to make it into one of the volumes?

Presumably the Spirit/Hykimi/Hsunchen book.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

we didn't used to know

I love this phrase!  A nice euphemism for "Gregged".

[PhilHibbs]

6 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I love this phrase!  A nice euphemism for "Gregged".

A deity with change powers is allowed to change, right?

[jajagappa]

9 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

A nice euphemism for "Gregged".

I don't think that is a fair statement. There was simply not much discussion of Mastakos at any point and certainly not of his background.

[metcalph]

8 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

There was simply not much discussion of Mastakos at any point and certainly not of his background.

Mastakos's relationship with the Sea Gods is kinda old as the Gods of Glorantha prosopedia speaks of him being captured by Orlanth at Daliath's well.  It also says of Larnste - the prior source of the motion rune - that "some philosophers believe he was able to transmute himself into another form, god, or power" which is really all the textual evidence one needs for Mastakos to have shape-shifting powers as if anybody is going to believe that Masgasta and Brastalos could bestow that upon him. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

21 hours ago, Joerg said:

Mastakos - while a portion of Larnste - has a very distinct parentage from Jmijie (another portion or evolution of Larnste, adapted to the lands of Pamalt's Necklace, but devoid of any watery nature). I would regard them (and other motion entities) more like siblings or cousins than as direct aspects of one another.

but ...

 

On 5/16/2024 at 12:02 PM, David Scott said:

Jmijie, who is the Pamaltelan mask of Mastakos.

 

so two versions ?! which is fine from a change rune perspective 🙂 

[Joerg]

8 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

so two versions ?! which is fine from a change rune perspective 🙂

Apart from the flaw that Plato built dungeons with monsters that would not fit through the entrances, the simile of the elephant in the cave discovered by blind explorers still works.

In my Glorantha, if you approach the mobility rune through Jmijie, you won't get any access to water-related magics (such as Proteus, a magic shared with Triolina), and you would think that wheeled vehicles are an enemy thing. Jmijie is a rather distinct aspect of the Rune, with myths about his own feats and gifts. Likewise, no Mastakos cultists could outrun a horse or hyena without strong application of magic, and keep up that speed for hours. Watery Mastakos is not a runner, he is a charioteer.

Neither Mastakos nor Jmijie share the Footprint myth, or suffered the subsequent limping. Fathering or seeding huge mountains is outside of their scope.

Neither would know the fast lanes of Ronance in Prax.

Masks and their myths matter. If the thing on your flag has been taught to you as a rabbit, you will have a harder time identifying it as a duck.

Now changing yourself is easier for folk of the Change Rune, and we are told that Larnste might have escaped the destruction of the Celestial Court by changing himself. If so, he has not changed back.

[David Scott]

For reference GtG 647, [Mastakos] the Doraddi claim that this planet is the celestial home of Jmijie, the Wanderer. 

[Joerg]

11 minutes ago, David Scott said:

For reference GtG 647, [Mastakos] the Doraddi claim that this planet is the celestial home of Jmijie, the Wanderer. 

The Doraddi also claim that the Red Planet is the celestial home of Balumbasta, who we are told is a cognate for Lodril, even though they were in contact with the Artmali and Zaranistangi who identified that planet's deity with Tolat.

A shared planet doesn't mean identity. The Dara Happans identify the planet Mastakos as Uleria. The Zaranistangi of Melib might be the most correct with their identification as Emilla, a cult combining Mastakos and Annilla and some basic femal fertility pointing to Uleria.

[French Desperate WindChild]

I don’t know if I m a very weird gloranthaphile (and others are fine with all these « many and different truths ») or if there aare e a lot of people who , like me, would be happy to have some world design document, something telling « well you real world citizens, you know that the god the Gugu worship is in fact the god the Kiki worship. It’s « global » name is Juju and bla-bla-bla »

i don’t know if there would be more frustration for those who are happy today with the multi truths situation however

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I don’t know if I m a very weird gloranthaphile (and others are fine with all these « many and different truths ») or if there aare e a lot of people who , like me, would be happy to have some world design document, something telling « well you real world citizens, you know that the god the Gugu worship is in fact the god the Kiki worship. It’s « global » name is Juju and bla-bla-bla »

i don’t know if there would be more frustration for those who are happy today with the multi truths situation however

The God Learner playbook is for you, then. The identifications are useful for a shallow analysis, but they are bound to fail (spectacularly) if you take them too far.

As a Danfive Xaron initiate, you shouldn't expect to be able to renew your rune magic in Orlanth rites, even if DX walked a bit in Orlanth's underworld paths for the Seven Mothers heroquest.

[Ali the Helering]

6 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

i don’t know if there would be more frustration for those who are happy today with the multi truths situation however

There are only multi-truths, and it is absolutely indistinguishable from all the others!  🙃