Determining Characteristics

[RossTMcD]

I've been playing Chaosium games for a long time, but I'm new to the forums. I apologize if this topic has been hashed out before; I couldn't find anything recent with a quick search.

The RQ:Roleplaying in Glorantha book suggests rolling 3d6/2d6+6 seven times, in order, to generate characteristic scores, and then says that "The Gamemaster’s Guide contains optional methods of characteristic generation, and the gamemaster is free to come up with their own methods or point values as desired." The Gamemaster's Guide is, alas, not currently on offer, so one is left to fall back on other resources. Personally I like point-buy systems, so that's what I've been poking at.

Call of Cthulhu gives the option of allocating 460 points among the eight characteristics (the equivalent on a 3-18 scale with seven characteristics would be 80.) Basic Roleplaying (2023) has the option of starting all characteristics at 10, and then buying up or down with STR, CON, SIZ, and CHA costing 1 pt/characteristic point and DEX, INT, and POW costing 3; you get a total of 24, 36, 48, or 60 points to spend depending on the power level of the campaign.

I like the basic idea of the BRP approach, but I also like the idea that characteristics cost more the higher you get. Since RQ already has the "breakpoints" (9-12, 13-16, etc.) for skill category modifiers, it seems convenient to leverage those. So I came up with a scheme where as in BRP everything starts at 10, and each point of STR, CON, SIZ, POW, and CHA costs 1 point in the 9-12 range, 2 points in the 13-16 range, and 3 points in the 17-20 range (and similarly going down.) DEX and INT cost 2/3/4 points in those ranges.

The end result is that the total cost for each characteristic score is:

(This is before you apply elemental bonuses, of course.)

How many points should you get to build a character? I tried calculating how much each of the pregenerated characters in the book (Vasana, Yanioth, Harmast, etc.) would cost using this system and got values ranging from 46 to 62, with an average around 56. So, 56 seems like a plausible number of points to work with.

Anyway, that's just what I've been noodling.

[Geoff R Evil]

In my campaigns characters are potential heroes so I allow 5d6 take best Three and 4d6 +6 take best two for int and size.

sometimes I enforce each roll in turn, str, dev, cha etc, to make it more likely they play chars with varying stats, other times, for long campaigns, I allow allocation as the pc sees fit.

even with these generous rolls you sometimes get a really poor character, so I allow one complete re roll of all stats, but you have to take whatever comes even if worse. 
ultimately it’s how they role play that makes the difference not their stats, so allows survive ability is my thought.

[radmonger]

INT and DEX being more expensive makes sense in a modern setting like CoC, due to firearms and literacy. In RQ:G melee combat and magic tends to be more common. So you could maybe simplify things by costing all stats the same.

The official fast character generation method has some suggested stat arrays.

 

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

In addition to the part of RQG that you quoted above, page 53  has a "miminum charactertistics" box which givers a choice of three methods, and then says other plans are Perfectly All Right.

I am in a campaign now in which we had the option to either do a point buy, or to roll and then assign the rolls to characteristics, with bonus points to add if our total was below 93; also with a re-roll option if our total is too low.

 

Edited July 18 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing

[Mugen]

As for myself, I'm not fond of pure point buy systems in BRP games, because of the thresholds you mentioned, which are present in almost all games, but also because a game like RuneQuest has playable intelligent species which differ a lot from the human standard. Try to stat an Uz with the same number of points as you use for a human, and you'll have a pitiful member of that species.

An idea I had but never had the opportunity to use is to roll 1d6+X in order for every characteristic, where X is the character's species average-3 (7 or 10 for humans). Then spend Y points among those, with a maximum of 5 points per characteristic. Y would depend on the level of "heroism" you want in your game.

I'm also quite surprised anyone can think 1 point of DEX is worth 3 points of SIZ or CON. I mean, having a good initiative is never bad, but the other 2 gives you your Hit Points, and SIZ is an important part in determinig damage bonus.

As an example, Steve Perrin, in his SPQR rules, put a cost of 10 per point for STR, CON, SIZ and DEX, 20 per point for POW and INT and 5 per point for APP (which was not as valuable as CHA), out of a total of 200 points, which was not only used for characteristics.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

Give everybody some amount of total points - we like 92, which ends up at 98.

Let the players assign them, perhaps with limits: e.g. they must be in the range 10-17.  (For humans)

[Rodney Dangerduck]

4 minutes ago, Mugen said:

As for myself, I'm not fond of pure point buy systems in BRP games, because of the thresholds you mentioned

Since RQG allows adding 3 to stats and also using Runes to add to stats, a player can usually reach the magic thresholds anyhow.  And these are special PC heroes, why not let them optimize stats to some extent?

[French Desperate WindChild]

i define an amount of points to distribute. I choose 92+3 (the 3 RP) = 95

here my full house rule

[RossTMcD]

FWIW I chose for DEX and INT to cost more partly following the example of BRP but mostly because those two stats are the most effective at increasing skill category bonuses. Having an INT and DEX of merely 13 gives you +5% to Agility skills, +5% to Knowledge skills, +10% to Manipulation skills including all weapons and shields, +5% to Perception skills, and +10% to Stealth skills. Getting both of them to 17 doubles all those bonuses.

(Actually I like the way that BRP does skill category bonuses: +(stat - 10) for a "primary" stat, +(stat - 10)/2 for a "secondary" stat, -(stat - 10) for a "negative" stat. Gets rid of the 13/17 breakpoints. I might be tempted to house rule that into RQG if I ever run a game of it again.)

[RandomNumber]

We just roll an extra d6 for each stat. So 4d6kh3, and 2d6+6 for INT and DEX.  The average on 4d6, keep highest 3 is about 12 so it's a modest improvement over 10.5 but keeps the full range.

Roll20 macro:

&{template:default} {{name=Adventurers Stats}} {{STR: [[4d6kh3]]}} {{CON: [[4d6kh3]]}} {{SIZ: [[2d6+6]]}} {{INT:  [[2d6+6]]}} {{POW: [[4d6kh3]]}} {{DEX: [[4d6kh3]]}} {{CHA: [[4d6kh3]]}}

...and my 'name' is RandomNumber so points-buy sure isn't darkening the door of any campaign I run 😉

Edited July 18 by RandomNumber

[RossTMcD]

Quote

...and my 'name' is RandomNumber so points-buy sure isn't darkening the door of any campaign I run 😉

Heh 🙂 As the saying goes, "It's a good job we don't all like the same thing, or what a shortage of porridge there would be."

Personally I don't like randomness in character creation at all; I like for everyone to have an equal opportunity to create exactly the character they want, or at least as close to that as the rules allow. But then, other than Chaosium, my other top-favorite TTRPG system is HERO, so you can see where I look favorably on point-based systems.

[Susimetsa]

I've never been able to decide which I love more: crafting a character as close to my initial idea as possible - or letting the dice decide. The latter gives the character some surprise twists that may end up making it more interesting, whereas the former system allows you to play a fighter or an academic when you want to do so, and perhaps make the character more dear to you.

[Mugen]

On 7/17/2024 at 11:16 PM, RossTMcD said:

FWIW I chose for DEX and INT to cost more partly following the example of BRP but mostly because those two stats are the most effective at increasing skill category bonuses. Having an INT and DEX of merely 13 gives you +5% to Agility skills, +5% to Knowledge skills, +10% to Manipulation skills including all weapons and shields, +5% to Perception skills, and +10% to Stealth skills. Getting both of them to 17 doubles all those bonuses.

But having 17 in both CON and SIZ gives you 17 HP in standard BRP and, I guess, 19 or 20 HP in RQG. That's 60% to 100% more than a human. Skills can be trained, not HP.

And if you also have 16 STR, you end up with +1d6 damage bonus.

Having a good DEX is nice. But it's not as good as having a good STR, CON and SIZ.

On 7/17/2024 at 11:16 PM, RossTMcD said:

(Actually I like the way that BRP does skill category bonuses: +(stat - 10) for a "primary" stat, +(stat - 10)/2 for a "secondary" stat, -(stat - 10) for a "negative" stat. Gets rid of the 13/17 breakpoints. I might be tempted to house rule that into RQG if I ever run a game of it again.)

The BRP method is in fact the same as in RuneQuest 3. But RQG reverted to the RQ2 method. In part to reduce the number of times a magician has to rewrite his skill values every time he spends POW.

As for myself, I prefer to have base skill values based on 2 characteristics for each category. For instance, a base of STR+DEX for Agility skill. I also avoid using POW for this in games where it's a meta currency for magic...

Edited July 19 by Mugen

[Susimetsa]

1 hour ago, Mugen said:

As for myself, I prefer to have base skill values based on 2 characteristics for each category. For instance, a base of STR+DEX for Agility skill. I also avoid using POW for this in games where it's a meta currency for magic...

I used the same method in an earlier version of my WIP, but now I'm using "each point above 10 *2". For example Athletic Skills category is 2*(Ag+St-20). The season being:

- using the first method would give 12+12 a bonus of 24, and 16+16 a bonus of 32 (difference of 8 percentage points)

- using the second method, 12+12 would give a bonus of 8 and 16+16 a bonus of 24 (difference of 16 percentage points)

(Using the raw BRP method, the bonuses would be 4 and 12 - with a difference of 8.)

Basically, I found that the first method provided too similar category bonuses with a difference of mere handful of percentage points. The latter method makes the characteristics more important.

And, yes, those category bonuses potentially give rather big bonuses to some skill categories, but the rest of the character creation process levels it a little bit - the players still need to make serious decisions on what skills their characters want to focus on.

 

[RandomNumber]

5 hours ago, Susimetsa said:

I've never been able to decide which I love more: crafting a character as close to my initial idea as possible - or letting the dice decide. The latter gives the character some surprise twists that may end up making it more interesting, whereas the former system allows you to play a fighter or an academic when you want to do so, and perhaps make the character more dear to you.

Many years ago I was rolling two characters for a friend's RQ3 campaign. The random stats gave a pretty clear direction as to what type of characters they might be - one kind of roguey and another fairly brawny. I clearly wasn't paying attention as I got them back to front when I did the previous experience.  They went on to be my all-time favourite PC's despite being naturally unsuited for the roles they had taken on.

[RossTMcD]

On 7/18/2024 at 9:14 AM, RossTMcD said:

But then, other than Chaosium, my other top-favorite TTRPG system is HERO

Speaking of HERO, and skills, I've started tinkering with creating an unholy abomination of a mashup which is HERO rules with Chaosium skill rolls bolted on Frankenstein's-monster style.

I haven't gotten far enough to say whether it will work at all reasonably, or if it's a good idea even if it does, but it's fun to make the attempt 🙂 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

I'm fascinated at all the different takes here on which stats are important, and the logic.  All good ideas  to think about.

  For example, I usually treat SIZ as my "dump stat".  

[Jose-san]

22 hours ago, Mugen said:

The BRP method is in fact the same as in RuneQuest 3. But RQG reverted to the RQ2 method. In part to reduce the number of times a magician has to rewrite his skill values every time he spends POW.

I don't know if this is uncommon, I keep the bonus separate from the skills. If the bonus changes, I only change the bonus, not every skill. The players have to add the bonus every time they roll though.

[Jose-san]

Looking at the pregen characters in the Starter Set, the sum of their characteristics ranges from 93 to 103. This is the whole data set:

98 101 98 103 99 101 102 98 102 99 95 93 99 93

The mean of the first 10 characters is 100.1, only drops to 98.6 when taking the last 4 into account.

I look at them as their intended level for new characters so I give my players 100 points to distribute as they want to.
 

Edited July 20 by Jose-san

[Jens]

Is that before or after the 3 points of rune bonuses? For groups that want to distribute I use 95 points, plus the 3 runes for 98. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

3 hours ago, Jose-san said:

Looking at the pregen characters in the Starter Set, the sum of their characteristics ranges from 93 to 103. This is the whole data set:

98 101 98 103 99 101 102 98 102 99 95 93 99 93

The mean of the first 10 characters is 100,1, only drops to 98,6 when taking the last 4 into account.

I look at them as their intended level for new characters so I give my players 100 points to distribute as they want to.
 

by the way we  should keep in mind that, the "standard" is (4x 3d6 / 2x 2d6+6) + 3 (from runes)

so it means an average of 83.5+3=86.5 ...

that's a lot disturbing, and it seems that the writers were disturbed too because, then...

- if it is lower than 92 you MAY add 3

- if you roll a 1 you MAY reroll the dice

- if it is less than 72 you MAY reroll all the character

- if one is between 6 and 9 and none more than 13, you MAY reroll the characteristic

so there are a lot of exceptions you may apply or not.

 

That's something I don't understand.. If the standard rule needs so many if, if the pregen are all lucky in their "rolls"  who should follow the standard rule with so many -potential- complexity ?

 

so even if I have my own (as I answered previously) I understand that random is fine for some people too (not instinctivelly my  taste)  I would imagine that, more than rolling each stat, a random rule could be :

1) the GM decides the amount to distribute for everyone : those who want to decide, those who want to follow the chance. Let's say 91 (because 7*13).

then for those who want to roll dice :

2) roll 1D3 to determine the type of distribution (and let 7 to player'schoice) :

- average everywhere (12-12-12-12-12-12-12)

-good / bad (15-13-12-12-12-11-9)

-very good / very bad (17-15-12-12-12-9-7)

 

exemple :  D3 =2 --> good / bad

 

3) roll the charac

STR, roll a D7 -> 4 , get the result in the position, remove the position. ex STR = 12  (left : 15-13-12-12-11-9)

CON, roll a D6 -> 2, ex CON = 13 (left 15-12-12-11-9)

SIZ, roll a D5 -> 1, ex1 SIZ = 15 (left 12-12-11-9)

DEX, roll a D4 -> 3 = 11 (left 12-12-9) , INT D3 ->3 = 9 (left 12-12)

so in our exemple, our pc is STR 12 / CON 13 / SIZE 15 / DEX 11 / INT 9 / POW 12 / CHA 12

If we did roll the very good/very bad, it would be STR 12 / CON 15 / SIZE 17 / DEX 9 / INT 7 / POW 12 / CHA 12

Now what does the player want ? If it is a sorcerer,add all the 7 points to int, and you don't have a very optimized sorcerer, but at least, they can start. With a very good/very bad distribution, it would be more difficult and the pc may imagine someone else

Shaman is not very lucky, but distribute  a lot in POW and a little bit in CHA (and maybe INT) and you get a bear-shaman

Easy to transform in Conan right ?, just add 6 in STR and maybe 1 in DEX (well Conan should be a little bit smarter than that )

An entertainer ? add DEX; or DEX and STR, or DEX and CHA and you have some juggler, danser, clown or you know, the guy at the base of the pyramide of gymnasts.

Hard worker, good for a smith (add dex/str, maybe int) a carpenter or a lumberjack

 

Edited July 20 by French Desperate WindChild

[Jose-san]

23 hours ago, Jens said:

Is that before or after the 3 points of rune bonuses? For groups that want to distribute I use 95 points, plus the 3 runes for 98. 

Without the 3 RP. Just points from characteristics. So some characters in the Starter Set get to 105-106 points when you include RP.

EDIT: Sorry, I thought you were talking about actual RP, the bonus from runes are included in the characteristics I listed.

Edited July 21 by Jose-san

[Akhôrahil]

I would advise against point-buy - the often oddly statted characters that turn up from ”roll top to bottom” are a charming part of the game, and a driver of roleplaying. This isn’t D&D, where you need an efficient and optimized build and point-buy makes more sense than rolling.

[Akhôrahil]

If you use point-buy, there little reason to make Int and Dex more expensive. Except for sorcerers, Int is just nice to have for bonuses, and even Dex isn’t all that. Meanwhile, Cha is good for everyone and great for warriors, who will want to qualify as Rune Lord, and DB beats Dex every time as an optimization target.

[jajagappa]

6 hours ago, Jose-san said:

I don't know if this is uncommon, I keep the bonus separate from the skills.

That is how I have my players set up their character sheets.