Playing More Experienced Characters

[Mr_Douglass]

Disclaimer: I am new to RuneQuest...

I've been looking for material on creating characters that are more experienced that the Core Rules generate.  Metaphorically, starting at 5th level instead of 1st. 

Please Note:

• I am fully aware RuneQuest doesn't have levels - it's a metaphor.

Edited (2024-09-02):

• Someone very helpfully pointed out a grammatical error I made, so I have corrected it.

Edited September 2 by Mr_Douglass
Someone very helpfully pointed out a grammatical error I made, so I have corrected it.

[Nick Brooke]

Do you mean creating more experienced adventurers, or playing them?

[glarkhag]

There is an approach in the core rule book (p 81) for generating more experienced characters. I find that to be very, very stingy.

I apply the seasonal experience rules (4 exp checks for professional a cult skills) plus a random number of rune and passion and POW gain checks per year. Done with VBA to calculate instantly. 

I did also work out a cost-based approach using 20 XP points per year (representing 4 exp checks in 5 seasons). Gaining 3% cost different XPs depending on skill score. Eg 50% cost 2XP as on average will only succeed in 1 out 2 exp rolls.

Depends how generous and simple you want it. Maybe just a flat % to dole out; setting a max of say +10% on one skill per year ( there'll be multiple views on what that cap ought to be, especially at the high end 80+, an easy way would be 100-current skill divided by 5 as a cap). Lots of ways to model that: some simplistic and easy, some better representations of experience rules and some better simulations).

This assumes they're not considered to be adventuring during this extra time. If you want seasoned "adventurers" then I'd give them a few more experiences checks per season. 

Wealth, gear and magic are other considerations too. I struggle with the RQG  economy tbh so haven't got a convincing answer for wealth.  Rune Magic will depend on POW gains and sacrifice. Moderately Powerful characters will gain 1 POW per 3 gain rolls roughly. Active adventurers could get 6 gain rolls a year. 

Spirit magic, I'd be inclined to give 1 point per year plus whatever freebies their cult gives. 

Sorcery I haven't modelled or used but I guess you can extrapolate from the above. 

Hope this helps, despite it not being definitive. 

[DreadDomain]

12 hours ago, Mr_Douglass said:

Disclaimer: I am new to RuneQuest...

I've been looking for material on playing characters that are more experienced that the Core Rules generate.  Metaphorically, starting at 5th level instead of 1st. 

Please Note:

• I am fully aware RuneQuest doesn't have levels - it's a metaphor.

 

Welcome to RuneQuest!

There are rules for experienced character on page 81 of the core book, but they are not well thought out (by increment of 10 years, really?) or simply a placeholder for better rules in a potential Gamemaster's Guide. However, they are absolutely usable with a bit of inspiration from RuneQuest 3.

Here they are with some modifications:

Additional Experience (from RQG p.81)
In Step 2, you might have decided to create an adventurer older than 21 years old. 

• For every year above 21, add +5% to four different occupation or cult skills and to one personal interest skill. 
• For every 3 years above 21, add +1 points of POW to your adventurer’s cult Rune points.
• For every 5 years above 21, add +1 point of spirit magic/sorcery spells. 

Maturity has a price, however. For each two-year interval or fraction above age 40, subtract –1 point from STR, CON, or DEX (you pick). 
As described on page 79, these skill bonuses cannot increase a skill beyond 100% (Something you may want to wave or adjust). 

Edited September 2 by DreadDomain

[Mr_Douglass]

13 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Do you mean creating more experienced adventurers, or playing them?

You are technically correct... characters must be created before they can be played...

I've updated my post, but you may wish to reread the Let's Keep BRP Central a Welcoming Place for Everyone post. I know you're a moderator, but it didn't feel particularly welcoming to me...

Edited September 2 by Mr_Douglass
I hit "Save" too quickly before

[jajagappa]

On 9/1/2024 at 8:37 PM, Mr_Douglass said:

I've been looking for material on creating characters that are more experienced that the Core Rules generate.  Metaphorically, starting at 5th level instead of 1st. 

Welcome to the Forum.

There's some nuance here in what you're asking since levels are a non-existent concept so this might go a couple different ways. 

1) You're looking to have a character of age X (e.g. 25 or 30) who simply has a higher level of skill in their Occupational, Cult, and Personal skills. If that's the focus, then what @DreadDomain outlined is pretty much the approach to take.

2) You're looking to have a character who is already a Rune Priest/Lord in a given cult at the time you start. This is in many ways the next "level", but creating this vs. playing to reach it removes a lot of the game (which I suspect is why Nick asked the question he did). But if that's what you're looking for, the simplest approach is to create your character normally, add some # of years, and then assign the skills/POW needed to be a Rune Master. (That's much of what we would do to create an equivalent NPC of that rank.)

3) You're looking to create a character who is older with more backstory. For that you might look at picking up Early Family History - Chaosium | Jonstown Compendium | DriveThruRPG as it has additional events (farther back in time) and some guidance on pushing back the events for grandparents, parents, and self. (There's other Jonstown Compendium works that cover background for other locations beyond the core book too.)

You can obviously blend the three approaches above.

Hopefully that provides some additional thoughts for you.

[Malin]

I simply gave the players in my latest campaign who started a bit more weathered and experienced this option (or similar, can't remember exactly):

Additional skill bonuses: Add 4 skills at +25% (can't go over 100) and 10 skills at + 10. Then add +50 to one weird, generally non-combat skill that symbolize your character background, subject to GM approval.

The last one is the most interesting, leads to some fun character defining stuff like Devise, Swim or Bureaucracy. If the character is a non-combat character I can let them use it on a combat skill if it fits the background.

I generally don't give rune points or spirit magic, because I am quite generous with opportunities to learn in-game, but getting the width of skills with medium and high levels up is what makes a character feel experienced. If you run a tighter game when it comes to learning magic, I would add some points of spirit magic too, but cap the extra points at max 4 per spell or something to avoid people starting with like 8 in protection and the like. The point is adding width and variation.

Edited September 3 by Malin

[Akhôrahil]

15 hours ago, glarkhag said:

There is an approach in the core rule book (p 81) for generating more experienced characters. I find that to be very, very stingy.

It’s very stingy about skills, but as someone who let the PCs use it, let me tell you that starting at 9 Rune Points makes one hell of a difference. (Some of those PCs are really feeling the aging 8 years later, though.)

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

It’s very stingy about skills, but as someone who let the PCs use it, let me tell you that starting at 9 Rune Points makes one hell of a difference. (Some of those PCs are really feeling the aging 8 years later, though.)

We have formerly starting age 21 characters, who have been through lots of sessions and experience checks.  We also find that it is the Rune Points that make a hell of a difference, or break the game, depending on your POV.

[glarkhag]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

We have formerly starting age 21 characters, who have been through lots of sessions and experience checks.  We also find that it is the Rune Points that make a hell of a difference, or break the game, depending on your POV.

I've been starting with 16 year old characters so that by the time we have battle and heroquesting rules 🤞the characters are not OAPs. Not reached the stage of rune levels yet (and 4 RPs is highest).

Can you give examples of how it breaks the game? 

Edited September 3 by glarkhag
Edited punctuation.

[smiorgan]

10 hours ago, Mr_Douglass said:

You are technically correct... characters must be created before they can be played...

I've updated my post, but you may wish to reread the Let's Keep BRP Central a Welcoming Place for Everyone post. I know you're a moderator, but it didn't feel particularly welcoming to me...

I guess the intention was just to ask what kind of advice you needed. How to create them vs. how to play them / run adventures for them.

[smiorgan]

On 9/2/2024 at 2:37 AM, Mr_Douglass said:

Disclaimer: I am new to RuneQuest...

I've been looking for material on creating characters that are more experienced that the Core Rules generate.  Metaphorically, starting at 5th level instead of 1st. 

I think you already got some sound advice from @DreadDomain and others, but I'm curious: have you already tried to play RuneQuest with starting characters and you were dissatisfied with the power level? Or is it just from reading the rules?

If it's just from reading, I'd suggest first to do a one shot scenario with the pregenerated characters and see how it feels before embarking in the generation of advanced characters.

Now that I remember, the old RQ2 book "Runemasters" had rules to create Rune-level characters (maybe 10th level, going with your metaphor) and advice on how to play them. They could be adapted to RQG, double-checking with the section on Rune-Priests / Rune Lords in the RQG rulebook. The advice on play is fascinating but mostly of historical interest - playstyles have evolved a lot!

Runemasters is still available as download on DriveThru.

  

[Susimetsa]

I tried reading the above comments, but my brain is half-asleep today, so forgive me if I missed someone already mentioning this:

In case RQ/BRP is a new system for you, it is good to note that "beginning characters" can be quite talented in some of their skills. Their beginning skills might be 80% or higher (if you give no upper limit in character generation) on certain focus skills. They might adventure for a long time after this and still increase those skills only by 10% or so, whereas their lower skills may increase more rapidly.

So, more experience doesn't necessarily mean that they will be much more combat-effective. The progression is very dissimilar in comparison to some other RPG's where you can drop a beginning character with a single blow, while a high level character shrugs off direct hits from siege engines.

[Nick Brooke]

14 hours ago, Mr_Douglass said:

You are technically correct... characters must be created before they can be played...

Some people want to know about playing as more experienced (e.g. "Rune Level") characters, and we would be wasting their time (and ours) telling them how to create them, if that's not what they wanted to know. (Some people can also be quite rude to people who misunderstand what they were asking for; but thank you for your polite reply. It's all water off a modmin's back.)

The RQ core rulebook contains advice on creating more experienced characters, and other posters in this thread -- now they know for sure what you were asking for -- have added their own suggestions. You could also look at other BRP-derived game systems (RQ3, Mythras, etc.) and steal ideas from them.

The biggest oddity for Gloranthan RuneQuest is the POW economy, which those other games might not have to deal with. My (possibly unpopular) thoughts on this are in my free Manifesto, qv: the world breaks if you assume everybody in it is "powering up like a player character," so obviously they aren't, and that means you're going to have to make a judgment call about how many more Rune Points or characteristic increases (if any) to award adventurers who start out older than most. They haven't necessarily been "powering up like player characters" before they start play.

Frankly, it might be easiest to wing it for one game, rather than invest time building a SimGlorantha model of "how long it takes to qualify as a Rune Lord, assuming a lifetime of average, unheroic experience."

[smiorgan]

It's also interesting to observe - well at least interesting for me - that character development feels very different in RQ viz d20 based games such as 5e or Pathfinder, or even 13A.

You don't "build" a RQ character by planning its progress through a tree of class-based or feat based options, you rather "grow" them through what they do in-world: the skills they use adventuring, the magic they resist, the glory and renown they gain with their exploits, the worship they give to the gods, the new cults they join, the power they are ready to sacrifice to their gods, the training they take during downtime, or even the heroquest journeys to the otherworld they may take. A lot depends on the kind of adventures they embark in and there's a fair amount of luck. All characters will improve, eventually, but where exactly is not entirely by design. There's no universal currency such as xp, nor "milestones" that unlock improvement in several, often unrelated areas. It's all much more organic.

 

Edited September 3 by smiorgan

[Malin]

43 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

and that means you're going to have to make a judgment call about how many more Rune Points or characteristic increases (if any) to award adventurers who start out older than most.

Yeah, I almost always add a bit more for skills, but NEVER more characteristic increases (we use a rather generous rolling method) and not more than three Rune points. That's enough from the start unless you start out playing at hero level (and then all bets are off)

[DreadDomain]

9 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

It’s very stingy about skills, but as someone who let the PCs use it, let me tell you that starting at 9 Rune Points makes one hell of a difference. (Some of those PCs are really feeling the aging 8 years later, though.)

I agree with this statement. I find RQG too generous with starting rune magic (both spells and rune points) for initiates at 21 y.o. My Glorantha grew in RQ3 and magic was less accessible and the world felt grittier.

So...

49 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

The biggest oddity for Gloranthan RuneQuest is the POW economy, which those other games might not have to deal with. My (possibly unpopular) thoughts on this are in my free Manifesto, qv: the world breaks if you assume everybody in it is "powering up like a player character," so obviously they aren't, and that means you're going to have to make a judgment call about how many more Rune Points or characteristic increases (if any) to award adventurers who start out older than most. They haven't necessarily been "powering up like player characters" before they start play.

Yes, definitely this. 

Nothing wrong with baseline RQG but I prefer to keep magic and connecting with the gods just more special.

[Susimetsa]

59 minutes ago, smiorgan said:

You don't "build" a RQ character by planning its progress through a tree of class-based or feat based options, you rather "grow" them through what they do in-world:

Which is why I shun the word "build" in character generation. We are not building a deck for Magic the Gathering with special cards etc., we are designing and discovering the life path of a real character.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Nick Brooke said:

The biggest oddity for Gloranthan RuneQuest is the POW economy, which those other games might not have to deal with. My (possibly unpopular) thoughts on this are in my free Manifesto, qv: the world breaks if you assume everybody in it is "powering up like a player character," so obviously they aren't, and that means you're going to have to make a judgment call about how many more Rune Points or characteristic increases (if any) to award adventurers who start out older than most. They haven't necessarily been "powering up like player characters" before they start play.

I think the world makes sense if typical people get one POW per maybe ten years. Five if you want things wild or think Wyters are a constant POW drain.

There’s also a big difference between the PCs merely starting older in regular professions (higher skills, mostly - perhaps some POW, a little better funds and equipment) and the PCs starting out as experienced adventurers (gods know what they should start off with!).

Edited September 3 by Akhôrahil

[g33k]

15 hours ago, Mr_Douglass said:

... but you may wish to reread the Let's Keep BRP Central a Welcoming Place for Everyone post. I know you're a moderator, but it didn't feel particularly welcoming to me...

I think you were reading-in a lack of welcome that wasn't there.

The title of your OP asks about "playing" more-experienced characters; I'd see that as a request for tactico-strategic how-to-play tips, GMs' advice about how the kinds of stories & campaigns might differ from beginning PC's, etc.

Your text asks about "creating" them; I'd see that as requesting character-creation help, rules-mods & hacks, etc.

This is more than just a "technical" difference -- these are both legitimate questions, but very-different asks, with utterly-different answers.

Or maybe (since you mention both) you're asking about both.

It isn't at all unwelcoming to try to understand the question before answering; at least, it doesn't seem so to me.

# # #

In addition to the excellent character-creation suggestions already offered above, I'll point you toward the useful (and inexpensive!) "Early Family History" document on the Jonstown Compendium, which extends the family-based character-creation rules some decades earlier than the core rulebook offers (which in turn lets your PC "graduate" from character-creation and begin "leveling-up"):

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/297538/early-family-history


NOTE however, since you're new to RQ:  characters remain kind of "fragile" for quite a while.  Hit Points = CON (with a minor mod for SIZ) and that doesn't change; you *might* get a minor bump to CON and/or SIZ, but nothing huge; the same  "ignore armor + extra damage" Critical-Hit  that took out a starting character can take out an experienced one.  Healing magic -- particularly from bound/allied/etc spirits, with standby orders to heal you when you drop -- is a classic solution, but there are others.

So there's both a character-creation tip (the "Early Family History" doc) and an in-play tip (spirits to emergency auto-heal).
 

Edited September 3 by g33k

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 9/2/2024 at 2:37 AM, Mr_Douglass said:

Disclaimer: I am new to RuneQuest...

I've been looking for material on creating characters that are more experienced that the Core Rules generate.  Metaphorically, starting at 5th level instead of 1st. 

Please Note:

• I am fully aware RuneQuest doesn't have levels - it's a metaphor.

Edited (2024-09-02):

• Someone very helpfully pointed out a grammatical error I made, so I have corrected it.

 

I would follow the p81 "additional experience" with one difference

if the pc changed their lives during the experience, determine the change

- a new cult (does that mean the pc left the previous cult or is it a second one ?). POW  -1 and a spell from the new cult. If the pc left the first cult, runic spells should be removed (during the "experience", probably the pc cast these spells, now one use)

- a new occupation

then determine with the player why. The answer will determine new passions (60 % or more), some obvious (new cult = devotion to the god or loyalty to the temple, occupation shaman apprentice - warrior as thane or as mercenary... loyalty to XXX) some depending on the story (hate,  love, fear... depending on who/what caused the change)

now for the period of ten years when the pc changed, the 4 bonus p81 (+5%) are to the different occupations (previous and new one) and cults (first and second) skills.

The next 10 years periods will propose 4 bonus to the new occupations and the new cult (or both cults if the pc is still initiate of the first cult)

you may allow more skills bonus (+10%) or more skills (not 4 but 6), you may also propose one or two "exotic skills" (skills not in cults or occupation) but then add too a new passion (how did the pc learn these skills ?)

 

so that's for %

 

now there are in fact levels in rqg.

the first is you want to play experienced initiate (the additional experience rule answers)

the second is you want to play rune level (shaman, priest, rune lord) then I would just say determine what are the requirement to be rune level (skills,spells, pow), then dispatch 50% in any other skills, add 6 pow (and buy with it rune spells or not) and decide the age.

the third is you play a hero. Determine the requirement like a rune level, dispatch 200% in any skills, add 12 pow (and buy rune spells or not) add some advantages due to heroquesting, like p360 shamanic abilities.  1 ability you are level 4, 2 abilities you are level 5, etc...

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

* by the way, I was not sure  if you wanted rules to play or to create pc too. But as my english is very poor i did not ask 🙂 

and once you will have pc level 2 (rune level) or more (hero) I bet that you will join a lot of us who ask how to play high level pc (aka heroquest rules) 😛 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

On 9/2/2024 at 10:52 PM, glarkhag said:

Not reached the stage of rune levels yet (and 4 RPs is highest).

Can you give examples of how it breaks the game? 

Once Rune Points get to 10 or so...

Consider a fighter type (I know we don't officially have classes in RQ, but go with me) in good armor (~7 points), who also has Protection 6 and Shield 6.  That's 25 points of armor.  Plus a parry for ~12 points more.  The poor GM has a few options

1. Keep big bad guy (BBG) damage to "reasonable" levels, in which case only a crit will hurt.  This has been my approach when I GM.  It works o.k., you just need lots and lots of bad guys...  Like some Hollywood action movie where the good guy special forces cut through dozens and dozens of enemy rebels / terrorists / drug gangs.  Our other GM prefers #2:
2. Somehow boost up BBG damage to a high level, say, ~30 average.  ("Chaos" is one technique)  That will give the "tank" a worthy battle.  However, any  "non-tank" type, say, your LM Sword Sage with ~12 points of armor + defensive magics, who gets in the way, is pretty much toast.  The GM most arrange that the BBG only fight the tanks.  In effect, you get character classes...

 

[glarkhag]

5 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Once Rune Points get to 10 or so...

Consider a fighter type (I know we don't officially have classes in RQ, but go with me) in good armor (~7 points), who also has Protection 6 and Shield 6.  That's 25 points of armor.  Plus a parry for ~12 points more.  The poor GM has a few options

1. Keep big bad guy (BBG) damage to "reasonable" levels, in which case only a crit will hurt.  This has been my approach when I GM.  It works o.k., you just need lots and lots of bad guys...  Like some Hollywood action movie where the good guy special forces cut through dozens and dozens of enemy rebels / terrorists / drug gangs.  Our other GM prefers #2:
2. Somehow boost up BBG damage to a high level, say, ~30 average.  ("Chaos" is one technique)  That will give the "tank" a worthy battle.  However, any  "non-tank" type, say, your LM Sword Sage with ~12 points of armor + defensive magics, who gets in the way, is pretty much toast.  The GM most arrange that the BBG only fight the tanks.  In effect, you get character classes...

 

Right yes, I can see that being a problem.

I experience these issues even at lower levels to be honest. The party merchant does his best to avoid melee with dark trolls and dragonewts and has developed a fear passion of tusk riders. His specialty skills and magic cluster around trade and communication and travel. He's too weak for decent armour so he let's the heavy infantry Vinga do the tanking (who tends only to be hurt by trollkins when they critical). She survived a recent allosaur attack but I doubt the merchant would have if he'd been the one the hungry dinosaur's beady eyes had fallen upon. 

One thing to consider perhaps is that at that kind of level their community and cult will expect a fair bit of service, which can translate to using rune points for them. Someone has to tie up their rune points casting warding spells because the cleaners knocked over the warding wands again. 

Adventures can easily interfere with worship schedules too, thus preventing replenishing. Build up encounters that chip away. Magic and spirits are good consumers of MPs and RPs. Smart enemies will withdraw and come back twenty minutes later if facing insurmountable rune magic defences. Three waves of attacks and an hour later, different balance. 

But ultimately can you avoid imbalance if you have characters with clusters of magic and skills that are not focused on melee and you have tough melee opponents? 

Conversely I've seen the newtling shaman in the borderlands campaign cause havoc on melee focused characters. The enemy can exploit magic too. 

But this is all conjecture on my part because I've not played that level and this was only one example you cited.

I imagine there is lots more experience that you and others will have to share on the topic. I would be keen to hear more cautionary  tales  from the high end gaming table. It's off topic for this thread, so should we start a different one? 

 

 

 

 

[PaulJW]

My approach to rolling up more experienced characters is:

1) Give the players broad guidelines that relate to rolling up characters suitable for the scenarios prepared.

2) Let them do their own thing.

3) Vet the end results and weed out anything silly.

 

So, laissez faire. As long as the PCs end up with broadly suitable skills and abilities for the scenarios they will be experiencing, anything goes.