Solar Esrolia

[Eff]

20 minutes ago, radmonger said:

Yes, when you create a write up for a new cult, you should ideally state whether it is a cult or subcult. Just as when you invent a Gloranthan city, you should place it on a map. Most of the inhabitants will know where they live, so things wotrk smoother if the player does too.

While anyone is free to make arguments like 'Glorantha would be better if Boldhome was 300km to the North', that doesn't seem like a productive use of time.

What are you talking about? 

[radmonger]

1 minute ago, Eff said:

What are you talking about? 

Hadad is a Mesopotamian god, not a Gloranthan one.  So if you were to choose to add it to Glorantha , you would have to create a cult write up for it. Creating a cult write up following the template would resolve the question of whether it should be a top-level cult or a sub cult.

 

 

 

[Eff]

1 minute ago, radmonger said:

Hadad is a Mesopotamian god, not a Gloranthan one.  So if you were to choose to add it to Glorantha , you would have to create a cult write up for it. Creating a cult write up following the template would resolve the question of whether it should be a top-level cult or a sub cult.

And yet that's not what the post in question says at any point. You're engaging in, haha, subjective interpretation of it to match your own preferences, wherein there are no unresolved questions in this area. So much for objectivity! So much for snide commentary about following the rules!

[radmonger]

I'm not trying to be snide, but if you have a point, I am not getting it.

'Is Boldhome north of Nochet?' is a different type of question to 'is Boldhome north of London?'

Both an inhabitant of Boldhome, and  a purchaser of Chaosoum products,  could answer the first questiont; the second would be unknowable to them. 

The same is true of 'is Orlanth a subcult of Yelm' and 'is Orlanth a subcult of Hadad?'. 

The only way the second type of question could be made meaningful is by writing London, or Hadad, into Glorantha. Which would involve making subjective choices. And after you had made those choices, they woudl have been made.

 

[Nick Brooke]

So my headcanon is that Ernalda tells Orlanthi “of course [your god] is my favourite husband-protector” and the poor saps believe her. They never think to ask what she tells all those worshippers of her other husband-protectors: Yelm, Flamal, Argan Argar, Heler, etc. etc. They’re utterly bamboozled.

And all the shouty people saying “No, it’s Orlanthi, he’s obvs. her one-and-only,” clearly self-identify as Orlanthi. Not as Esrolians.

[None]

23 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

So my headcanon is that Ernalda tells Orlanthi “of course [your god] is my favourite husband-protector” and the poor saps believe her. They never think to ask what she tells all those worshippers of her other husband-protectors: Yelm, Flamal, Argan Argar, Heler, etc. etc. They’re utterly bamboozled.

And all the shouty people saying “No, it’s Orlanthi, he’s obvs. her one-and-only,” clearly self-identify as Orlanthi. Not as Esrolians.

I can accept this 😄. Not that that it changes my feelings about the part of the sourcebook that claims Orlanth is Ernaldas most favoured husband in Esrolia but I can accept this headcanon. It fits with how I perceive Ernalda and her cult, it's probably also one of the reasons Ernalda doesn't work in Dara Happa and they have Dendara instead.

On another note:

10 hours ago, Jeff said:

I'm afraid for me it is you that aren't making a lot of sense here. 

Since I'm going to assume you weren't tripped up by me accidental calling Orlanth Ernalda's wife in stead of husband or favoured husband I can only conclude that there isn't anything left to say about this then.

Edited October 5 by None

[radmonger]

1 hour ago, None said:

sourcebook that claims Orlanth is Ernaldas most favoured husband in Esrolia but I can accept this headcanon

I would read that as 'currently most favoured husband, since Queen Samastina decided to marry King Broyan'.  It's contemporary politics, not timeless mythology. Of course poiticians often find it useqful to stress precendent. And after all, there are 3 times as many Orlanthi as Yelmalians and Argan Argar inities put together. Most of those Orlanthi follow the peaceful Barntar subcult. but I don't expect you get to marry the Queen by being simply a farmer.

In Nochet, the Red and Warm Earth factions have different ideas on who should marry the Queen. If Samastina disagrees, then they will have different ideas on who should be the Queen. As the guide says 'it is widely feared that the Vingkotlinmgs would return and reclaim their lands'.

And, since the death of Broyan, Samastina only really rules Nochet and environs.

 

[soltakss]

2 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

So my headcanon is that Ernalda tells Orlanthi “of course [your god] is my favourite husband-protector” and the poor saps believe her. They never think to ask what she tells all those worshippers of her other husband-protectors: Yelm, Flamal, Argan Argar, Heler, etc. etc. They’re utterly bamboozled.

And all the shouty people saying “No, it’s Orlanthi, he’s obvs. her one-and-only,” clearly self-identify as Orlanthi. Not as Esrolians.

I think that this is key to understanding Esrolia, thanks, Nick.

Also, I have played in CJ's excellent Esrolian campaign at Continuum for the last few conventions, and his idea that men are useful for manly things but useless for other things makes sense to me. 

[soltakss]

16 hours ago, None said:

Thing is. Even if the game claims so I don't consider them Orlanthi or a storm culture. They're and Earth culture and Esrolian. Nothing can change my mind on that. The only reason they're shoved into being allegedly Orlanthi is because the game is to stubborn about the connection between Ernalda and Orlanth for its own good.

As I see it any similarities they have with the Orlanthi would be due to cultural cross-pollination.

Esrolia with how it is favouring such an unruly and violent god who frankly speaking is nothing more than a jumped up hilltop bandit to such a degree makes no sense. Especially not when Yelm, as the as the much more stable and actually life giving sun, makes so much more sense.

I can accept the Esrolians being tolerant or friendly with their Orlanthi neighbours, I can even accept them having Orlanth as one of Ernalda's lesser husbands as something that migrated over from the Orlanthi. As her main husband though? No.

In Esrolia, Ernalda has many husbands, so Esrolians have many husbands. But, and this is important, Orlanth and Ernalda are King and Queen of the Gods, this makes their bond particularly important. The other husband-protectors are either from before Orlanth and Ernalda married, such as Yelm, when Orlanth went adventuring or when he went on the Lightbringer Quest. For example, poor old Doburdan took Orlanth's place when he left for the Lightbringers' Quest and gave her up when Orlanth returned. So, Orlanth is always an important husband-protector.

However, Esrolia is not one cultural area, as it borders other kingdoms. Where it borders the Shadow Plateau, Argan Argar is an important husband-protector. Where it borders Caladraland, Lodril is an important husband-protector. Where it borders Heortland, Orlanth is an important husband-protector.

Don't forget that Ernalda was Yelm's concubine, or wife, depending on whose story is being told. Orlanth was the barbarian upstart, although grandson of Aether, but he proved his worth, and right, by performing the Three Contests to gain Ernalda as his wife. Yelmic folks will claim that Orlanth cheated and was, as you say, just a jumped up hilltop bandit, and that this was proven when Ernalda took Lodril and Yelmalio as husbands after Orlanth. However, Orlanth became Ernalda's husband and won her from Yelm.

There is cultural osmosis, as the Orlanth and Ernalda cults have been together since the Dawn and there has been contact with places such as Heortland for 1600 years.

[None]

22 hours ago, soltakss said:

Yelmic folks will claim that Orlanth cheated and was, as you say, just a jumped up hilltop bandit

Well, it is pretty hard to cheat more than killing your opponent in a competition where killing your opponent wasn't specifically part of said competition. Also, I believe that most Yelmic folks Yelm and Orlanth were competing for Ernalda and instead claim that Orlanth was trying to prove himself to Yelm.

 

Anyway, we've probably we've probably veered a little bit of the treads topic by now and exhausted the original slant of it so let shifts angle a bit.

Instead of what would Solar Esrolia be like let me ask how would a solar culture that was like Esrolia be?  What roles would they have their gods take and which ones would they have and favour or would they have to merge with another pantheon to achieve this. (Like how the Orlanthi had to merge with the Earth cults to be anything more than animal herding raiders.)

Are there any already established solar countries that are more like Esrolia than Dara Happa?

Edit: yes I'm being consciously unspecific again. I don't want to narrow it down by specifying how said country should be similar to Esrolia.

---

By the way, Nick.

On 10/5/2024 at 9:12 AM, Nick Brooke said:

So my headcanon is that Ernalda tells Orlanthi “of course [your god] is my favourite husband-protector” and the poor saps believe her. They never think to ask what she tells all those worshippers of her other husband-protectors: Yelm, Flamal, Argan Argar, Heler, etc. etc. They’re utterly bamboozled.

Now I'm kind of curios what your headcanon is for what Ernalda and her cult explains it when Ernalda jumps ship from one god to another for the umphteenth time just because the new one seems to be winning more and she totally won't do it again?

Edited October 6 by None

[Nick Brooke]

Godtime is non-sequential. All of her favourites are her favourite, eternally. Until you get this, you won’t ever understand mythology. You’re using the wrong lens.

[None]

1 hour ago, Nick Brooke said:

Godtime is non-sequential. All of her favourites are her favourite, eternally. Until you get this, you won’t ever understand mythology. You’re using the wrong lens.

Werther its non-sequential doesn't matter though. It still interpersonal relationships and its still events framing to her own benefit and its still happening in a continuity to the people living inside time. If all of her favourites only are her favourites under certain conditions then they aren't all her favourite, eternally. Eben in an existence when time doesn't exist.

For something to be true eternally in an existence when all time is now it also has to be unconditional.

[radmonger]

I think the Western Sorcerous view is that only eternal things can be really real. So as gods are mutable across the ages of the God Time, they are not real; instead Runes are the true building blocks of creation. There is a reason the orgin of that view is placed in the West.

This is actually more or less compatible with the theist view, which is that gods may change, but so do people. An eternal truth tells you nothing useful about how to live your life. It remains true both before you make a terrible mistake, and after you have a life-changing epiphany.

If there as a time when Ernalda loved Yelmalio above all others, and another when she loved Orlanth that way, then both of those God Time Events can be directly reexperienced by heroquesters and other worshippers.

Quote

Now I'm kind of curios what your headcanon is for what Ernalda and her cult explains it when Ernalda jumps ship from one god to another for the umphteenth time just because the new one seems to be winning more and she totally won't do it again?

Ernalda is unlikely to gain a new lover without the Great Compromise being broken. But Time is cyclic,  you have the marriage contest to work out whether the next year, in this particular place, is going to be one that corresponds to a time of one lover and not another.

IMG, in:

• Sartar: Marriage Contests are part of the tribal kingship Crown Test. Orlanthi competitors are always confident they will win becasue Orlanth is the best. The judges almost always agree.
• Esrolia: Marriage Contests are annual public festivals, Orlanth probably wins more often that anyone else, but not more than half the time. 
• Sun County: Marriage Contests are secret conspiracies that usually result in the violent overthrow of the current ruler.

 

 

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, None said:

Werther its non-sequential doesn't matter though. It still interpersonal relationships and its still events framing to her own benefit and its still happening in a continuity to the people living inside time.

As Nick notes, this is not the right lens.

Look outside. Every day, the Earth receives the light of the Sun. Many days, the Earth receives the rain of the Storm or the cooling shade of the clouds or the breath of the wind. The Earth is warmed by the heat within. The Earth is cooled each night by the shadow. 

That is Ernalda and her Husband-Protectors. These myths repeat endlessly.

[Nozbat]

4 hours ago, radmonger said:

• Sartar: Marriage Contests are part of the tribal kingship Crown Test. Orlanthi competitors are always confident they will win becasue Orlanth is the best. The judges almost always agree.
• Esrolia: Marriage Contests are annual public festivals, Orlanth probably wins more often that anyone else, but not more than half the time. 
• Sun County: Marriage Contests are secret conspiracies that usually result in the violent overthrow of the current ruler.

 

I think you might be viewing this from a patriarchal society viewpoint.. not from the stance of an Earth Goddess. 

Its always useful to have the best and strongest to sacrifice them for the good of the people or to ensure the harvest.

Oh yes, they don't do that anymore

Edited October 6 by Nozbat

[Nozbat]

Or maybe they do...

[Eff]

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

As Nick notes, this is not the right lens.

Look outside. Every day, the Earth receives the light of the Sun. Many days, the Earth receives the rain of the Storm or the cooling shade of the clouds or the breath of the wind. The Earth is warmed by the heat within. The Earth is cooled each night by the shadow. 

That is Ernalda and her Husband-Protectors. These myths repeat endlessly.

Then it would be fairly strange for people to believe that there were clear favorites, which is what @None's question is about. That is, if people are aware of Ernalda's polyamorous ways, moving between the various lovers, why would they believe that Orlanth, or Magasta, or whoever, was actually her clear favorite, rather than, say, her secret favorite, or accepting the lack of a primus inter pares? 

(Now I think the likely answer is that there's a significant value difference between the normal contemporary world and the fantasy, and the readily accessible historical exemplars also don't have much similarity in values for this situation either, so the language is simply difficult to make match up.)

[mfbrandi]

• Ernalda is Bruce Forsyth.
• Nobody believes Brucie when he says, “You’re my favourite.”
• People appreciate the Mighty Atom’s (hollow) performance of favouritism — it is enough.

[Joerg]

10 hours ago, None said:

Are there any already established solar countries that are more like Esrolia than Dara Happa?

There was pre-Brightface Peloria under the White Queens, mentioned in the Entekosiad. Naveria might retain something like this in the Red City, but has been thoroughly brainwashed by millennia of Brightface Yelm overseers, and Sedenya sort-of co-opted Brightface's idea of Empire. Nysalor's Bright Empire was created under strong Dara Happan influence, too, and spread that pernicious influence all over western and central Genertela.

Saird has quite a big Solar component, but again culturally dominated by Dara Happan Yelm and the Sun Dome Temples.

Galin on the eastern end of Lake Felster in Ralios might be a remnant of the Old Gods (pre-Theyalan) Solar worship that was strong at Hrelar Amali until the Lightbringers came. The fact that they have a queen in the current scheme which might be a variant of Yelorna (though without unicorns and virginity) could approach your idea, but still no Mother Sun cult. Other than German and Norse, I am not aware of European languages (and thereby ancient myths) assigning the female gender to the sun. Much like in Peloria, the horse warlords (Indogermanic Koryonos groups) seem to have trumped whatever precursor cultic practices there were elsewhere.

The Praxians had a Sun Daughter cult of Yelmalio, with female representations of the Lesser Sun still worshipped in the depths of the Paps (at least when the party of my campaign got invited there to report on their weird trip into the body of the Goddess passing through Old). Golden Age Prax with the Tada-Shi might have been such a place?

Eastern Glorantha is generally Solar where it isn't primarily mystical. Teshnos is rather close to the Dara Happan/Bright Empire set of three celestial brothers plus a fourth working fire, and then a female cremation fire. Kralorela got the dragon bug, Vormain got a color scheme. Mokato seems to be quite solar, too, but has a strong Island deity outshining local sun worship. Maybe some of the Phoenix islands, or the furthest Eastern ones?

Fonrit has solar cities, but you don't want to go there.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Eff said:

That is, if people are aware of Ernalda's polyamorous ways, moving between the various lovers, why would they believe that Orlanth, or Magasta, or whoever, was actually her clear favorite, rather than, say, her secret favorite, or accepting the lack of a primus inter pares? 

Because when you go to Peloria, there's broad open land, the Sun shines far more often than not, and grains grow from the Sun's nurturing light.

When you go to Dragon Pass or Heortland (or much of Maniria), there's rugged terrain where the Storms regularly obscure the Sun and the rains are needed to encourage the land to be fertile.

When you go to Esrolia, you're in a rain shadow. You get sun, and storms, and nourishing rivers, and warm earth, and worms churning the soil, and quiet nights, and overall very, very fertile soil. Ernalda has opened her arms to all her lovers here.

And if you go up to Valind's Waste, Valind has sealed the Earth in a prison of ice and snow.

This is how the gods manifest in the world post-Compromise. Now, you can get cultural shifts for a period of time. The Heortlings rule Esrolia during part of the EWF years and during the Adjustment Wars. For a period they likely shift the weather patterns so that Esrolia is stormier than usual. But who does Ernalda bring in to defeat the EWF? Yelmalio. After the Adjustment Wars, Ernalda retakes control of Esrolia (much as she did after the Sword and Helm Saga). Belintar wants Esrolia to be Earth-dominant, so he encourages this as well. 

[jajagappa]

11 hours ago, None said:

Instead of what would Solar Esrolia be like let me ask how would a solar culture that was like Esrolia be? 

Foundationally, I think you want to start with a different myth of the origin of the Sun.

A possible myth might be along this line:

During the Green Age the Earth took a new form - it grew up forming a mountain and this was the Spike. Before, Light had simply risen up above the world. But where the Spike touched the Light of the Sky, Asrelia and Aether met and rejoiced in each other's presence.

They brought Light and Earth together and where these met, Fire formed. The Light of the Fire rose further up and this was called Dayzatar, who only wished to be with his father Aether. Deep within the Fire, the Earth melted and oozed and flowed down the Spike. This was called Lodril for he enjoyed the presence of his Mother and all her daughters, and he went even deeper into the Earth. But at the peak, Fire and Earth transformed into something new which separated from the Earth and rose above as a fiery Orb or Egg, and this was called the Sun. Some said this was male and called it Yelm. Some said it was female and called it Yu-Ernalda (or Harona or whatever...). Some said it was both. But it was no longer just Light or just Earth or even just Fire. It was the Sun, and it hovered halfway between the Earth and the Sky.

Trickster watched all this, because Trickster was both curious and jealous. He, too, tried to come together with the Earth upon a mountain top. But instead of Fire, there was a thunderous roar and something new was born, raging and violent. And it was called Umath, and it wanted a place of its own.

Now, from there you still need to develop the myths of how the Sun nourished the Earth, how the Storm ravished it and washed away the soil, how the Sun fought back and dried up the Earth, how Storm slew the Sun in anger, and how Earth went to sleep in the Underworld. Since the Sun is dead, you need someone to venture into the Underworld to relight and restore the Sun and awaken the Earth (and keep some control over the Storms).

But that's getting to be a rather different set of myths at that point.

[Joerg]

12 hours ago, jajagappa said:

But who does Ernalda bring in to defeat the EWF? Yelmalio.

Weird, that. Yelmalio (or at least his Sun Dome mercenaries) did fight the dragonspeakers before they got prominent in the council of Orlanthland, but then became the trusted mercenary providers for the Third Council. They may have switched sides again after the fall of the Dragon Sun emperor 910 and during the time of the three brothers and their heirs in Carmania, Dara Happa and Saird, but all of that happened north of Dragon Pass. In the south, the EWF and Slontos had an uneasy stand-off in Kotor, west of Esrolia. The Well of Daliath names the Only Old One as active in regaining Kethaelan autonomy.

I find it hard to believe that there would have been a sizeable anti-EWF Yelmalio contingent isolated in Kethaela beyond the Third Council lands. And then the mass utuma in 1042 eliminated all EWF influences.

Yes, there was a specific mention of a Yelmalio presence in Nochet. But at which date?

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Yes, there was a specific mention of a Yelmalio presence in Nochet. But at which date?

It's the Brightlight Event in Esrolia book, p.42-43. Specific date (other than the time of the dragons) is not given. 

[radmonger]

17 hours ago, Nozbat said:

I think you might be viewing this from a patriarchal society viewpoint.. not from the stance of an Earth Goddess. 

 

I'm not sure an Earth Giodess, or any other deity, has a 'stance' as such. Ernalda is still Ernalda whether she is in a partriarchal society like Sun Country, or a matriarchal one like Nochet. What you have are Earth prietesses, some of whom want rulership, co-rulership or just to give the ruler advice.

How that plays out, and whether those priestesses, and their chosen champions, succeed or fail at difficult rituals is often taken to be the will of the Godess. In much the same way, the results of Medieval trial by combat were often taken to be God's will.

However Ernalda is certainly very patient if she has had that power for hundreds of years. and places like Sun County still exist.

 

 

[None]

17 hours ago, Joerg said:

There was pre-Brightface Peloria under the White Queens, mentioned in the Entekosiad. Naveria might retain something like this in the Red City, but has been thoroughly brainwashed by millennia of Brightface Yelm overseers, and Sedenya sort-of co-opted Brightface's idea of Empire. Nysalor's Bright Empire was created under strong Dara Happan influence, too, and spread that pernicious influence all over western and central Genertela.

Saird has quite a big Solar component, but again culturally dominated by Dara Happan Yelm and the Sun Dome Temples.

Galin on the eastern end of Lake Felster in Ralios might be a remnant of the Old Gods (pre-Theyalan) Solar worship that was strong at Hrelar Amali until the Lightbringers came. The fact that they have a queen in the current scheme which might be a variant of Yelorna (though without unicorns and virginity) could approach your idea, but still no Mother Sun cult. Other than German and Norse, I am not aware of European languages (and thereby ancient myths) assigning the female gender to the sun. Much like in Peloria, the horse warlords (Indogermanic Koryonos groups) seem to have trumped whatever precursor cultic practices there were elsewhere.

The Praxians had a Sun Daughter cult of Yelmalio, with female representations of the Lesser Sun still worshipped in the depths of the Paps (at least when the party of my campaign got invited there to report on their weird trip into the body of the Goddess passing through Old). Golden Age Prax with the Tada-Shi might have been such a place?

Eastern Glorantha is generally Solar where it isn't primarily mystical. Teshnos is rather close to the Dara Happan/Bright Empire set of three celestial brothers plus a fourth working fire, and then a female cremation fire. Kralorela got the dragon bug, Vormain got a color scheme. Mokato seems to be quite solar, too, but has a strong Island deity outshining local sun worship. Maybe some of the Phoenix islands, or the furthest Eastern ones?

Fonrit has solar cities, but you don't want to go there.

So there are a few smatterings here and there and a few remnants of what might have been? Hmm. One of the reasons I was asking was because I've felt as if most of the elemental pantheons and also cultures with a strong elemental tie seems to be ... pigeonholed or fenced into similar patters.  Sure there are some variations, sometimes, but usually not all that large variations. While that does depend a little on what you're looking at they usually follow similar patterns.(Sure there are some weird exceptions like Lodril who seem like he never got the same memo the rest of the family got.)

Most obviously probably being how Sun cultures and gods are patriarchal and prudish with a strong hierarchy while Storm gods and cultures are violent, rowdy, take authority poorly, like to part and think possession is 100% of the law. Meanwhile darkness gods and cultures are hungry, and so on.

So I've been looking for exceptions that have unusual interpretations of their gods and social patterns. Or been curious how such exceptions would look.