A Question About Heortling Steads

[M Helsdon]

Seen from above.

[Jon Hunter]

3 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

More importantly what type of house are we going to chasing Broos around with our broad swords! 

I tend to find I get chased by broos

[M Helsdon]

5 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Ah ha. So thats the kind of look for Orlanthi settlements in Sartar,  combined with the info you've given us on the steads built to a Square earth rune shape with courtyard? So a settlement like Apple lane would have this sort of style of building, and Jonstown too?

I suspect that houses in an urban setting are likely to be more variable in size and shape: space within the walls is often at a premium and only the wealthy can afford not to be pragmatists about the layout of their houses. Many of the structures at Apple Lane are not homes but halls and barns. In Pavis there are some square houses with central courtyards or light wells, but many buildings are rectangular and divided into apartments and tenements.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

37 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

I tend to find I get chased by broos

Ah I see! You've been playing it wrong

[Jon Hunter]

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

I suspect that houses in an urban setting are likely to be more variable in size and shape: space within the walls is often at a premium and only the wealthy can afford not to be pragmatists about the layout of their houses. Many of the structures at Apple Lane are not homes but halls and barns. In Pavis there are some square houses with central courtyards or light wells, but many buildings are rectangular and divided into apartments and tenements.

I see Pavis as very different than Dragon pass, the main reasons being climate. 

Anyway our gloranthas may vary, so my dragon pass has square esrolian design, long houses and round houses which reflect the air and mobility runes.

[Jeff]

7 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

I see Pavis as very different than Dragon pass, the main reasons being climate. 

Anyway our gloranthas may vary, so my dragon pass has square esrolian design, long houses and round houses which reflect the air and mobility runes.

New Pavis was built by Sartarites. The Sartarites know much about stonemasonry (more than most human cultures but not as much as the Flintnail cult), and it is safe to say that they regularly use stone (at least for the foundational walls) in their buildings. It is likely that widespread stone use comes in the wake of building Boldhome, but in the following century it is pretty standard for Sartarites. Add to that the ongoing influence from Esrolia (always important, but became even more important post-1492), and you have the Sartarite style. 

[Mankcam]

17 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

I really like the look of this Orlanthi stead/village. I do see alot of square-based houses, but not too many with large internal courtyards, which leads me to think this is from northern Dragon Pass rather than southern, due to the climate. This could work well, although I do agree with others that in heavily forested regions you could find alot more wood/daub structures. However I do like the notion that Orlanthi are quite skilled in masonry, as this lends consistency to why the settlers of New Pavis easily adapted their homes to the region. I can live with this vision of Orlanthi :-)

Edited March 9, 2016 by Mankcam

[Joerg]

I wonder how the majority of the Orlanthi houses are aligned. Solar cultures tend to figure the passage of the sun into their architecture, especially with regard to the orientation of entrances and exits. The Ernaldan tradition is big on fire husbands before the coming of Orlanth, and if it is their architecture we are discussing right now, such preferences are likely to have survived.

Unlike earth's northern hemisphere, I don't think that south will be associated with sun in the same way that it was north of the tropic. Glorantha is a tropical world, the sun is standing right overhead every noon. That means east and west are the important solar coordinates.

[Jon Hunter]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

New Pavis was built by Sartarites. The Sartarites know much about stonemasonry (more than most human cultures but not as much as the Flintnail cult), and it is safe to say that they regularly use stone (at least for the foundational walls) in their buildings. It is likely that widespread stone use comes in the wake of building Boldhome, but in the following century it is pretty standard for Sartarites. Add to that the ongoing influence from Esrolia (always important, but became even more important post-1492), and you have the Sartarite style. 

I'm not sure why I always imagined mud brick for Pavis, sure stone for the important stuff, but day to day building mud brick always struck me as the material of choice.

Maybe its the just the artwork you used to be Pavis always had a north african feel for me.

I also never realised the size of new pavis compared to the satarite cities its actually quite big isnt it.

[Mankcam]

57 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I don't think that south will be associated with sun in the same way that it was north of the tropic. Glorantha is a tropical world, the sun is standing right overhead every noon. That means east and west are the important solar coordinates.

Yes, of course you're right, I wasn't thinking 'Gloranthan', and that changes things considerably.

[Joerg]

Mud bricks are dominant in Badside, since this "City of Thieves" was founded back when the Rubble still was sealed. They also dominate the architecture in rural Pavis County, except for posh houses, as it will be difficult to run a quarry where nomads may drop by to take slaves. Unless you have a regime of templars and militia on patrol and guard duty (as in Sun County), making mud bricks near the river banks will be less risky. Probably unfired bricks, since fuel will be rather rare.

New Pavis shares the Sartarite masonry used for the city walls, and it also shares a tradition of dwarf masonry with Boldhome, most iikely visible in the New Pavis temple to Pavis.

The two quarries in the Rubble are pretty clear of troll activity, so there is a ready supply for blocks of stone for basement walls. (Speaking of this: where are the quarries for the Sartar roads and city walls?)

Given the location of Pavis, wood would have been used rather sparingly. While the River of Cradles does allow floating lumber down to the city, you still need elf approval for cutting it on the outskirts of Redwood Forest and protection from nomads and trolls on the way down (or alternatively you need to pay some hefty tribute in order to be left alone). I do wonder, though, whether the flat roofs of the majority of the buildings in Pavis really save on wood, compared to customary roofs.

Old Pavisite masonry apparently included some means for producing stone ceilings - my guess would be that the standard interior in the lower levels is dominated by arches and vaults. The ruin types don't make sense if the intermediate levels of the houses were simple wood inserts like in the insulae of Rome (and presumably Nochet, too).

I am curious how the flat roofs of the pueblos were constructed. Anyone in the know?

Edited March 9, 2016 by Joerg
mud bricks

[Didier]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

I am curious how the flat roofs of the pueblos were constructed. Anyone in the know?

Wood covered  by adobe ^^

[soltakss]

For me, a house is a house is a house.

Long houses are fine, square houses are fine, houses with big spikes in are fine. Stick in a hearth, place for the animals, place for the people and that's all I need.

[Noita]

I reckon there is a fair bit of recycling going on in New Pavis, with old timbers and masonry taken from the Rubble. Plenty of cypress and other trees in the Zola Fel valley that can be used.

[Joerg]

30 minutes ago, Iskallor said:

I reckon there is a fair bit of recycling going on in New Pavis, with old timbers and masonry taken from the Rubble. Plenty of cypress and other trees in the Zola Fel valley that can be used.

Reworked masonry I can subscribe to. Reworked timbers - I doubt there are many left that are accessible or not supporting overhead parts of the ruins. Given that there was no way of importing timber during the troll occupation, and that logging would have attracted unwanted neighbors, I think that most of what became accessible has been recycled long ago.

What is the Pavisite opinion about knocking down parts of their glorious part that haven't given up against the ravages of time and weather? As long as a building or a facade does remain upright, dismantling it without replacement might be seen as sacrilegeous.

I have wondered recently what plundering the ruins must have been like when the seal was broken by the Dragonewts Dream? The nomads had their chance to pilfer the ruins in the time of the Seventeen Foes of Waha, but they would have shunned stuff that went counter to their lifestyle. The uz may have harvested a lot of stuff for eating if not trading or hoarding (in the Castle of Lead?), but they, too, would have gone for different things than humans. The first Heortling explorers may have found value in things tossed aside by nomad or troll. Old Pavis survivors from the Real City may have taken them to known or at least suspected stashes in areas that could not be entered without a warrior screen for a pick of the items.

The breach of the walls and gates of Old Pavis would have caused may inhabitants to create stashes for things they valued, and it is likely that a lot of these became lost or inaccessible when nomads, trolls or worse foes took portions of the city from the humans.

[Didier]

7 hours ago, Jeff said:

New Pavis was built by Sartarites. The Sartarites know much about stonemasonry (more than most human cultures but not as much as the Flintnail cult), and it is safe to say that they regularly use stone (at least for the foundational walls) in their buildings. It is likely that widespread stone use comes in the wake of building Boldhome, but in the following century it is pretty standard for Sartarites. Add to that the ongoing influence from Esrolia (always important, but became even more important post-1492), and you have the Sartarite style. 

Knowing much about stonemasonery doesn't mean you use it extensively or on a regular basis for houses... Exemple : In Athena or Olynthia (5 BC), most of the houses had clay bricks, crude bricks or even rammed earth walls, stones being saved for the bases and the foundations.  For the (funny) record, walls could have been so thin that thieves could have found easier to force the walls rather than the doors. Those thieves were named toichorychoi ("wall-piercers").

 

5 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

I'm not sure why I always imagined mud brick for Pavis, sure stone for the important stuff, but day to day building mud brick always struck me as the material of choice.

Maybe its the just the artwork you used to be Pavis always had a north african feel for me.

I also never realised the size of new pavis compared to the satarite cities its actually quite big isnt it.

 First picture is a rendition of Ur and the Great Ziggurat ( Early bronze age, 21 BC ; Mesopotamia, actual Irak, south of bagdad). The second one is a rendition of Lachish (7 BC ; Judah, between Gaza and Hebron)

House walls were made of crude bricks, with bases of clay bricks.

 

Edited March 9, 2016 by Didier

[Jon Hunter]

However arguing for both side of this,

We are looking at real world  examples without the use of magic  which may make stone use much more affordable, However how expensive is the magic used to aid construction?

I assume there is a lot more mundane magic around than is written up for adventures for daily tasks such as bake mud brick, shape stone, etc.

However i'm still prone to believe economics will push people to cheaper and easier materials unless its a state or religious project.

[M Helsdon]

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

Unlike earth's northern hemisphere, I don't think that south will be associated with sun in the same way that it was north of the tropic. Glorantha is a tropical world, the sun is standing right overhead every noon. That means east and west are the important solar coordinates.

The Sun Path varies with the seasons, so the relative angle of the Sun will vary. Regarding house orientation, I see an alignment north/south, east/west as implicit in an Ernalda House, and living quarters, at least in Genertela, being on the south side to gain maximum warmth.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

7 hours ago, Mankcam said:

I really like the look of this Orlanthi stead/village. I do see alot of square-based houses, but not too many with large internal courtyards, which leads me to think this is from northern Dragon Pass rather than southern, due to the climate. This could work well, although I do agree with others that in heavily forested regions you could find alot more wood/daub structures. However I do like the notion that Orlanthi are quite skilled in masonry, as this lends consistency to why the settlers of New Pavis easily adapted their homes to the region. I can live with this vision of Orlanthi :-)

looking at the King of Dragon pass app, it's clear there is quite a difference with this representation of the Sartar Orlanthi. Jeffs clarifications feel more like a return to RQ2 in many ways. It also for me makes a lot more sense in the context of Glorantha. The Sartar Orlanthi feel a lot more established & civilised with their stone work buildings ( though not all buildings would be stone necessarily). The more Mediterranean feel of the buildings is better suited( at least in my opinion). 

King of Dragon pass in contrast feels much more Northern European, Saxon, & Nordic. Although I like the game, it has a portrayal of Orlanthi that never felt right in the context of the esrolia/dragon pass/Pavis axis. Though I feel some of that portrayal may still hold true for the more northern tribes like the Skanthi. What do others think? 

[Steve]

Jeff, would you say that the following illustrations from Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes are still accurate or not so much? How about those diagrams of the towns of Jonstown, Swenstown, Wilmskirk etc?

 

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

11 minutes ago, Steve said:

Jeff, would you say that the following illustrations from Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes are still accurate or not so much? How about those diagrams of the towns of Jonstown, Swenstown, Wilmskirk etc?

 

Yes good point. this portrayal seems more in line with the King of Dragon pass app, rather then the esrolian influenced Mediterranean look that Jeff has shown us. 

I too would really like clarification on whether these images have a place in Sartar? They certainly look more in line with the images of the Skanthi steads from Dorastor RQ3 supplement that Jeff has endorsed for these wilder Orlanthi.

 

[Jon Hunter]

19 minutes ago, Steve said:

Jeff, would you say that the following illustrations from Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes are still accurate or not so much? How about those diagrams of the towns of Jonstown, Swenstown, Wilmskirk etc?

 

Add to that the look and feel of KODP and other stuff.

However I do like square Esrolian house as an option.

I've also had the idea of a round larnsting house that uses the round shape to reflect the air and movement runes.  

You could even suggest that a round house is seditious in Lunar controlled areas

Edited March 9, 2016 by Jon Hunter

[TRose]

57 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

However arguing for both side of this,

We are looking at real world  examples without the use of magic  which may make stone use much more affordable, However how expensive is the magic used to aid construction?

I assume there is a lot more mundane magic around than is written up for adventures for daily tasks such as bake mud brick, shape stone, etc.

However i'm still prone to believe economics will push people to cheaper and easier materials unless its a state or religious project.

 Two  of my favorite Sorcery spells are animate wood and form set wood. Very useful for day to day living.

[Jon Hunter]

14 minutes ago, TRose said:

 Two  of my favorite Sorcery spells are animate wood and form set wood. Very useful for day to day living.

I think spirit magic needs something(s) to represent this kind of common magic which isn't adventurer, not as game focus but as a catch all for day to day magic. 

[Jeff]

50 minutes ago, Steve said:

Jeff, would you say that the following illustrations from Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes are still accurate or not so much? How about those diagrams of the towns of Jonstown, Swenstown, Wilmskirk etc?

 

I'd certainly commission art that looks far less Northern European today.