YGWV

[Pentallion]

Velakol Surestrike, from the Borderlands campaign, is described as having his favorite pastime as chariot racing with other Morokanth.  He has a four herdman team of matched pairs.

So all this talk of mud and 20 man teams are obviously incorrect.  Not even Greg gets to Greg Borderlands.

[M Helsdon]

25 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

Velakol Surestrike, from the Borderlands campaign, is described as having his favorite pastime as chariot racing with other Morokanth.  He has a four herdman team of matched pairs.

Very slow or very short races...

Note that one of Velakol's spells is Mobility...

Edited May 16, 2016 by M Helsdon

[Pentallion]

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

Very slow or very short races...

Note that one of Velakol's spells is Mobility...

I bet that's a popular spell amongst the Morocanth.  Necessity really, if you want to raid for humans.  That and slow.

[MOB]

3 hours ago, Pentallion said:

Velakol Surestrike, from the Borderlands campaign, is described as having his favorite pastime as chariot racing with other Morokanth.  He has a four herdman team of matched pairs.

So all this talk of mud and 20 man teams are obviously incorrect.  Not even Greg gets to Greg Borderlands.

What's to say Morocanth chariots used for racing have to have a Morocanth driver? Maybe they breed "jockey-sized" herdmen (or more likely, use herd-children)? Or if herdmen aren't bright enough, captured slaves. 

[g33k]

3 hours ago, Pentallion said:

I bet that's a popular spell amongst the Morocanth.  Necessity really, if you want to raid for humans.  That and slow.

Of course, the Morokanth reliance on those spells would be common knowledge among the tribes... leading the warriors near them to learn the same spells, to neutralize their effectiveness... I don't think that's the answer.

[Noita]

6 hours ago, Pentallion said:

Alas, according to the Borderlands campaign, Morokanth are only as fast as humans on foot, having movement 8.  Impalas move 10,, but Bison and other herd beasts move 12.  So running away is not much of an option.

 

 

Probably equals out in darkness then. Not convinced they are good raiders though. Perhaps one bison at a time is okay and manageable.

Far more easier game and forage if they hang out along the Zola Fel.

[Noita]

6 hours ago, Pentallion said:

Velakol Surestrike, from the Borderlands campaign, is described as having his favorite pastime as chariot racing with other Morokanth.  He has a four herdman team of matched pairs.

So all this talk of mud and 20 man teams are obviously incorrect.  Not even Greg gets to Greg Borderlands.

Racing is different to using them for everday life.  

The more I think about it there must be a connection to Ronance.

[Viktor]

20 hours ago, g33k said:

A very interesting game premise indeed!

Ask the question Mythically, I think: recall that the Eater/Eaten dichotomy is a sacred Covenant (enacted (and enforced!) by Waha &co) for survival.  Back in the Godstime, the Men and the Beasts were co-sentient brethren in Genert's lush Garden.  Not worrying about HOW it happens -- it's the Gods' will, or it COULDN'T happen, we'll just handwave the HOW -- so much as WHY it happens.

Did one clan of Morokanth abandon the Compact in some other way; is this Waha actually "kicking them out" of the Covenant (or just sending a "plague" to warn them to mend their ways)?  Speaking of Plague:  is it some vile Chaos-disease trying to undermine the tribes' sacred Covenant & the worship of Waha &co?  Etc etc etc.

The "noble rebellion of independence" is (to my mind) perhaps the LEAST interesting & mythically-Gloranthan way to approach the question...  YGMV of course!

Well there we go, Waha gifts intelligence to a single group of herd men because the Morokanth tribe that own them break the covenant, possibly even forsake Waha as a god utterly. So he gives intelligence to these herd men, to rebel and kill their Morokanth masters as punishment. Once that challenging task is complete, the players must struggle to be seen as true men and to gain status in society. Once it is known Waha gifted them intelligence they could probably do okay but they have the stigma of having been herd and not all would believe their origin necessarily. Even when religion is True, you get deviators and doubter.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Viktor

[boztakang]

[edit: oops! missed a few posts - this is in reference to the raiding part of the thread]

Morokanth will use terrain, and the cover of darkness. The wastes are rugged, with plenty of cover in places for the morokanth to sneak, strike, and fade into the night. Doesn't matter how fast your victim is if they have no idea where you came from or which way you went. I imagine that their herd-men are at least clever enough to be trained to build blinds, dig pits, and set spikes, so galloping off after those darn sneaky tapirs could be a very very bad idea... They won't be much use raiding in the wide open spaces, but in rough or broken landscapes they will have a major advantage.
Morokanth are also plenty big and strong on their own, I don't think they would value big strong herdmen nearly so much as small, sneaky ones that were trainable and good with their hands. 

Edited May 17, 2016 by boztakang

[g33k]

OK, those numbers (cited above, from "Borderlands") are a bit off, vs real-life speed.  YGMV, I suppose.  Note that below I round to nearest "5 per hour" whether mph or kph.  Occasionally, this results in an oddity such as "5mph" faster appearing ALSO as "5kph faster" for the same speed difference.

I'd presume that a "High Llama" (larger, longer stride) is faster than "our" Llama (the Llama we can measure with a radar-gun); for the Bolo-Lizard... Waha only knows!

But the earthly, non-Gloranthan Bison, Llama, and Sable all have similar top speeds (about 35mph/50kph); Zebra is a little bit faster, at 40mph/65kph.    Ostrich is a touch faster yet again, almost 45mph/70kph .   Maybe peg the "High Llama" (since we don't HAVE a number, but must CHOOSE one... but at least we have the real-world Llama for reference!) in that 40mph-45mph zone?

Or -- since Borderlands seems to want most Herd Beasts to be same-speed -- just ignore these "minor differences" and put ALL of Bison/ Sable/ Zebra/ HighLlama/ Ostrich/ BoloLizard  at the same speed?

But an Impala runs almost 50% faster than a Bison/Llama/Sable, about 50mph/80kph... granted that's "sprint" not "walk," but still...!  Dunno why Impala would be called-out in the rules as the ONE AND ONLY SLOWEST of the Great Tribes' Herd-Beasts... when in our world it's the FASTEST.     

My best number for the Tapir (though I don't think anyone has really solid numbers for them!) is "about as fast as a small pony."  This probably puts them around 20-30mph / 30-50kph... so, yeah:  slow enough to be at a real disadvantage vs. all species of Herd Beast!

HUMAN PACE (not rounding to 5's here!):  While we humans can turn in 10second times on a 100m dash, 20seconds on 200m (both 10m/s or 22mph/35kph) the time doesn't scale up:  that should be 100sec on the 1km run, but world record time is over 130sec (about 17mph).  For 10km, time is over 26m -- almost 1600 sec, about 14mph/22kph.

Despite the apparent "slowdown" over distance, humans actually do BETTER on the sustained runs -- most species' sustained speed is a much SMALLER percentage of their sprint!

Edited May 17, 2016 by g33k
clarity/formatting

[David Scott]

I have all the details for the major tribes herds from the Herd Beast chapter, I'll post them later.  

[g33k]

16 hours ago, Iskallor said:

Racing is different to using them for everday life.  

The more I think about it there must be a connection to Ronance.

Yeah...

In fact, what if Ronance-worship turns out to be rather common among Morokanth?  They might not field as many charioteer-warriors (only Rune-Lords & Rune-Priests probably have the magic needed) as most tribes field "regular" warriors, but it could be enough to offset the difficulties of other tribes' speed advantage...

[Pentallion]

The movement rate pretty much doesn't stand up for any "per hour" analysis, be that RQ2/3 or any other set.  RQ2 Borderlands had 12 second rounds.  Human moves 8 m per round.  But can charge at 16m in a round.  That works out to a running speed of 4.8km/hr.

Creatures in Glorantha move excruciatingly slow lol.  But same is true for basically every rpg.  You can't convert to actual running speed.  It's a game and that's merely something to give you an idea of which being is faster while allowing a tactical movement rate to be used in battle situations.  Think of it like football.  The guy can run a 4.4 40 at the combine, but on the football field, he's never going to run a 4.4 40 because the other players won't let him.  He has to dodge and juke and there's contact and he has to look to find his way, cut back, etc.  To gain 40 yards could take 10 seconds.  which, by the way, would be movement rate 8 in RQ.

[g33k]

Well, it's true that the "movement" rate is used a lot in a tactical-combat setting, so degree of speed and which-is-faster is all that's relevant THERE...

BUT...

1. I wasn't citing MPH/KPH to demonstrate overall "underspeed" of the RAW, only to discuss RELATIVE speeds -- Are the rules a reasonable measure of which Beast is faster?

2.  The Impala is STILL far too slow (vs. other Herd-Beasts), under the RAW!  I want to either see some good Gloranthan rationale for why this would be this way, or My Glorantha WILL Vary on this point! ;-)  Impala Tribe should be the fastest Tribe (at least in a tactical sense -- wouldn't surprise me AT ALL if Zebra or Bison had more endurance over days/weeks of travel!)

3. Out on the Plains of Prax, where e.g. a vengeful Bison warparty is chasing some raiders of another Tribe... "per hour" is a VERY relevant measure!  How many kilometers is it to where a large war-band waits to support the raiders?  Can they get to the war-band before they are caught?  Etc...

[Noita]

8 hours ago, g33k said:

Yeah...

In fact, what if Ronance-worship turns out to be rather common among Morokanth?  They might not field as many charioteer-warriors (only Rune-Lords & Rune-Priests probably have the magic needed) as most tribes field "regular" warriors, but it could be enough to offset the difficulties of other tribes' speed advantage...

Perhaps there was a time that they controlled Ronance's oasis or did him a favour and he shared the secret of the chariot. 

That said, apart from that odd ball priest and his racing chariots my Morokanth will be walking. Said oddball must have learned of them from somewhere (a slave? "Spare me and i shall build you something wonderous").

My current pcs discovered some murals depicting a chariot and even found a giant one in an ancient tomb in a deserted underground earth temple in the Wastes. 

I read online someone's suggestion that the serpents pulling Ronance's chariot represented the life giving seasonal rivers of the Wastes. Totally stole that.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Iskallor

[Viktor]

8 hours ago, Iskallor said:

Perhaps there was a time that they controlled Ronance's oasis or did him a favour and he shared the secret of the chariot. 

That said, apart from that odd ball priest and his racing chariots my Morokanth will be walking. Said oddball must have learned of them from somewhere (a slave? "Spare me and i shall build you something wonderous").

My current pcs discovered some murals depicting a chariot and even found a giant one in an ancient tomb in a deserted underground earth temple in the Wastes. 

I read online someone's suggestion that the serpents pulling Ronance's chariot represented the life giving seasonal rivers of the Wastes. Totally stole that.

And as we know, rivers are spirits or maybe even draconic (?) so they could be both the seasonal rivers as a metaphor for Ronance's power AND the actual chariot pullers literally. Pretty cool. 

[Freddie]

I've not long been caught up with the canon version of the survival contest, and the thought of near-veggie Morokanth is certainly news to me, so please go easy if I'm still behindhand on things in this post.

Something my recent 'return to Glorantha' (after a 1990-2014 hiatus) has really brought home to me is the essentially mana-rich nature of the place. As a sprog, I was thinking far too 'mediaeval' about the whole thing. So, it occurs to me we might not have quite the problem with Morokanth raids and transport that we would in, say an Arthurian setting. It's only one idea of many possibilities, but how about...

"While the Morokanth are known for the guile with which their raids are planned; using cunning in the darkness and weight of body to strike hard at the unwary and to discourage pursuit; there have been occasions when the tribes have learned to their cost that chasing after a Morokanth raiding party is not always a wise idea. Occasionally handfuls broken men have stumbled back to their khans speaking of spirit-haunted chariots; whether drawn by men or serpents they cannot tell; that seem to fly along the earth's top, telling of boggy places where there were none before and mounts mired so deep they must be slain to release their spirits back to the covenant's cycle, and falling silent at the thought of some dark magic that sought to engulf them as they fled."

Or in game mechanics terms, chariots with spirits tied to them, affinity with water, and a tendency to trot out the Old RQ2 Reliable Shade Elementals.

As I say, I'm not back in Glorantha long: I'd welcome any and all critiques (I'm conscious I might not merely be in error but possibly egregiously so). You gotta learn somehow.

[soltakss]

For me, having veggie Morokanth doesn't make much sense.

The Survival Covenant meant that the Eaters gained the ability to eat the meat of the Eaten, who in turn gained the ability to eat the harsh plants of the Wastes.

Now, maybe both sides already had the ability to eat both but the Survival Covenant enhanced that ability.

In my Glorantha, Morokanth primarily eat Herd Beasts but also eat some vegetables, herbs and so on. They would not eat the harsh chapparral of Prax as that would mean that they identify as herd beasts, which is against the Survival Covenant.

[g33k]

On 5/16/2016 at 4:55 PM, MOB said:

What's to say Morocanth chariots used for racing have to have a Morocanth driver? Maybe they breed "jockey-sized" herdmen (or more likely, use herd-children)? Or if herdmen aren't bright enough, captured slaves. 

It's pretty clear from the text that Velakol races his chariot himself, not via proxy.  If charioteers were herd-men or slaves, the text would have made that clear, instead.

Also note that he's not unique -- there are other Morokanth who enjoy chariot-racing, too!  That's mostly who he races against (per the text)...

Edited May 19, 2016 by g33k

[g33k]

On 5/17/2016 at 1:23 PM, Pentallion said:

The movement rate pretty much doesn't stand up for any "per hour" analysis, be that RQ2/3 or any other set.  RQ2 Borderlands had 12 second rounds.  Human moves 8 m per round.  But can charge at 16m in a round.  That works out to a running speed of 4.8km/hr.

fwiw, your numbers are 1/3 of the actual rate in the rules:  each point of movement is 3m/10ft per rd, not 1m per rd.   So that's 24m/rd in melee, 48m/rd running without foe interference.

It's still too slow for "realism" (about half of a realistic running speed) but that's the RAW.  I might be inclined to fix it just by saying there's an additional 2x multiplier available for all-out sprinting, which can only be maintained briefly.

[MOB]

12 hours ago, g33k said:

It's pretty clear from the text that Velakol races his chariot himself, not via proxy.  If charioteers were herd-men or slaves, the text would have made that clear, instead.

Also note that he's not unique -- there are other Morokanth who enjoy chariot-racing, too!  That's mostly who he races against (per the text)...

I don't think the text in the RQ2 Borderlands Referee's Handbook is definitive either way. And in the stats Velakol has Beast Training 105% but doesn't actually have a Drive Chariot skill.

[MOB]

22 hours ago, soltakss said:

For me, having veggie Morokanth doesn't make much sense.

The Survival Covenant meant that the Eaters gained the ability to eat the meat of the Eaten, who in turn gained the ability to eat the harsh plants of the Wastes.

Now, maybe both sides already had the ability to eat both but the Survival Covenant enhanced that ability.

In my Glorantha, Morokanth primarily eat Herd Beasts but also eat some vegetables, herbs and so on. They would not eat the harsh chapparral of Prax as that would mean that they identify as herd beasts, which is against the Survival Covenant.

The way I see it, because the Morocanth cheated their way to the "Eater" side of the Covenant, they're still physiologically herbivores. And also like the rest of the "Eaten", they still lack hands and the ability to manipulate things, and actually get around far better on all fours too. While the Morocanth do eat meat on ritual occasions (or when goaded by other Praxians) as a means to demonstrate and affirm where they stand in the Covenant, it does not agree with them and they don't enjoy it.

However, like the Chinese and their "mock meat" recipes, perhaps Morocanth cuisine - especially that which they consume in front of visitors - consists of artfully constructed "bison" steaks, actually cunningly made of chopped up grass, and "impala" stews that are actually ground up skullbush roots, etc. 

Edited May 20, 2016 by MOB

[metcalph]

One possibility about the morokanth chariots that has not (I think) been mentioned so far is that they are not for religious, magical or military purposes but to unnerve humans through gestures of dominance.  I would give numerous web literature on how such chariots might work but the material that I can find is not quite what I was talking about....

[g33k]

9 hours ago, MOB said:

I don't think the text in the RQ2 Borderlands Referee's Handbook is definitive either way. And in the stats Velakol has Beast Training 105% but doesn't actually have a Drive Chariot skill.

I'm working from MD's "GC Vol.IV: B&B..."

pg.187, col.1:   "His special joy is his chariot with its team of four matched herd-men, which he races against teams belonging to other Morokanth."

First, I'll simply assert that the clear prima facie reading is that Velakol is the driver.  Having mentioned the "four matched herd-men," NOT to mention that "a specially-trained slave is the charioteer" is simply not credible as the original intent:  they aren't mentioned because they aren't there (n.b. the same is true in his list of "Treasure" which specifies the chariot & herd-men:  it would include a trained charioteer-slave, if any!).

Nor does it say he "watches" chariot-races; it says "he races."  I will freely grant that "he races" is -- taken alone -- ambiguous:  the owner of the racing-team is said to "race" in the same way.  But the context makes it clear that this less-common usage is NOT the intended usage.

It's hard to imagine that he DOESN'T have a "Drive Chariot" skill, since he owns a chariot, loves charioteering -- why would he NOT be able to drive it?  Way back on p.42, it mentions "litter, cart or chariot" as ways for Morokanth to show off...  Clearly, chariot-driving is part of the culture, a skill the Morokanth know; for Velakol NOT to know how is... extremely counter-intuitive!

Maybe the lack of "Drive chariot" in his stats is an oversight in the original?  (RPG stat-blocks are notorious for having odd bits missing / mis-calculated / etc).

But instead... I suggest that "Beast Training" is supposed to subsume "Drive Chariot" in this context:  returning to p.42, "Beast Training" is explicitly likened to the RIde skill, and several exemplar uses (although I admit, NOT charioteering) are given.  Overall, p.42's inclusion of "Beast Training" as an explicit replacement-skill for "Ride," and the presence of carts/chariots in the culture, AND the lack of a "Drive" skill when chariots are called out, all lead me to conclude that "Beast Training" subsumes "Drive."

No stat-block errors need be presumed.

No missing slaves.

No oddly-phrased omissions from the textual notes.

Just a straightforward reading.

YGMV.

It's also clear that my idea (that maybe Morokanth use chariots for raiding, warring, etc) isn't supported by any of the text... though I find some mini's-folk have done Morokanth charioteers for both war and race purposes.  Overall -- particularly given Ronance's chariot -- I think MGWV by including more chariot-using Morokant; it's just a question of how much...

 

[TRose]

 Might point out  if you are thinking of a human/herdman pulled chariot similar to the Asian Rickshaw, The Rickshaw was invented in Japan only AFTER  the invention of the modern Ball Bearing and was used only where there was good roads. Mostali might understand how to use ball bearing in wheels but I don't think anyone one else would have a clue.