Why some cults have Geases

[simonh]

I'm pretty sure I've heard Greg talk about this at a con, but can't remember the details. Why do Yelmalio and Humakt have Geases and Gifts but other cults don't, or just have general taboos and required behaviour without the formalism of Geases and gifts.

I think it has to do with them both being Truth Rune cults, but in which case why doesn't Lhankor Mhy have them?

Simon Hibbs

[Jenx]

I'd say that it's more related to the fact they are Honour cults. LM is associated with Truth, yes, but not in the same way Humakt and Yelmalio are. It might be too obvious, but basically these two gods have geases, because they are the gods of geases.

[Pentallion]

I'm pretty sure Lhankor Mhy DOES have them.  The condition that they must be bearded, for instance. 

[Joerg]

Lhankor Mhy has cult restrictions, much like many other cults. Wearing a beard, marrying only light worshippers (quite an annoyance in Sartar and the Holy Country - my character went for a Redalda pony girl for different reasons, but there are few alternatives), never telling any direct untruth are typical restrictions. However, these restrictions apply to all Lhankor Mhytes. Unlike the Humakt and Yelmalio cult, there are no special gifts, nor is there a catalogue or lottery to draw the geas from.

Geases are individual restrictions, not organisational ones. Gifts are optional.

[soltakss]

Thanatar is a Truth Rune cult and has Geases.

Yelorna also has geases and is not a Truth Rune cult, but is closely associated with Yelmalio.

[Noita]

I have a city cult in my game with geezers in it...

[Joerg]

28 minutes ago, Iskallor said:

I have a city cult in my game with geezers in it...

Alll of Esrolian urban culture is about geese... but not about specific, personal restrictions and taboos that we know of.

Those Humakti and Yelmalian obligations/restrictions are pretty much a form of failed mysticism - reaching a certain state of consciousness and then reaping the reward, without any further advancement, except through further advancement in the cult hierarchy going hand in hand with a second, and deeper, iniitiatory experience. A true mystic wouldn't claim their reward but go on to master another of the restrictions.

Both Humakt and Yelmalio are about intimate contact with Death, Humakt becoming it, Yelmalio avoiding it. Either way, this is quite close to a severe austerity as practiced by the Kralori (as has been told about Sheng Seleris' rise to mystic power).

Edited May 31, 2016 by Joerg

[simonh]

Joerg has nailed it. Failed mysticism. Spot on. Of course that wouldn't work for Lhankor Mhy because his is a materialist religion teaching sorcery. Thanks.

Simon Hibbs

 

[David Scott]

@simonh I'm pretty sure I've heard Greg speak about the subject at cons as well. It's probably helpful to look at where they come from - Irish Mythology (I'm sure that's where Greg got the idea from). The Irish word is geis, the Scottish word is geas whose spelling we seem to be more familiar with. If you look through the Irish Myth cycles you come across the mentions of geis and its context.

Myths and Legends of the Celtic Race by Thomas Rolleston (1911) has this helpful definition:

Quote

Dineen's "Irish Dictionary" explains the word geis

(pronounced "gaysh "-plural, "gaysha") as meaning "a bond, a spell, a prohibition, a taboo, a magical injunction, the violation of which led to misfortune and death." [The meaning quoted will be found in the Dictionary under the alternative form geas] Every Irish chieftain or personage of note had certain geise peculiar to himself which he must not transgress. These geise had sometimes reference to a code of chivalry - thus Dermot of the Love-spot, when appealed to by Grania to take her away from Finn, is under geise not to refuse protection to a woman. Or they may be merely superstitious or fantastic - thus Conary, as one of his geise, is forbidden to follow three red horsemen on a road, nor must he kill birds (this is because, as we shall see, his totem was a bird). It is a geis to the Ulster champion, Fergus mac Roy, that he must not refuse an invitation to a feast ; on this turns the Tragedy of the Sons of Usnach. It is not at all clear who imposed these geise or how any one found out what his personal geise were-all that was doubtless an affair of the Druids. But they were regarded as sacred obligations, and the worst misfortunes were to be apprehended from breaking them. Originally, no doubt, they were regarded as a means of keeping oneself in proper relations with the other world-the world of Faery - and were akin to the well-known Polynesian practice of the "tabu." I prefer, however, to retain the Irish word as the only fitting one for the Irish practice.

There's an element of honour that @Jenx mentions, which I suspect is near the mark. I don't think it has direct rune connections. As noted in this definition, they are akin to Tabu which appear in the game as Taboos for spirit charms and also Lunar strictures.

Yemalio and Humakt are "Early" cults in the development of Glorantha, Greg likely thought it would be cool to include geases into the cult system somewhere.

Edited June 5, 2016 by David Scott

[simonh]

> Greg likely thought it would be cool to include geases into the cult system somewhere.

I'm sure that's the real world reason, but we can still have fun figuring out the Gloranthan reason.

 

Simon Hibbs

[g33k]

I have always presumed "Geasa" were about:

1. Something "meaningful" to the god in question, in some mythic/runic/etc way that wasn't immediately obvious or well-known (even to followers) on the mortal plane.
2. Something(s) the god wanted the mortal to "prove" to the god -- bravery, obedience, persistence, etc. -- and/or that the god wanted to teach to the mortal
3. Meaningless random weird shit imposed by a crazy shaman; between fear of crazed retribution, and fear that the shaman actually saw a real issue the Geas fixed, it gets obeyed.

Mostly, I thought, #1.  Most of what wasn't #1 is #2.  Most of what isn't 1 or 2 is #3.  And then of course there will always be a few odd corner-case issues, unique reasons, etc...

[Ali the Helering]

I have to say that I have always thought that the Yelmalion gaeasa in particular are sufficiently specific that they should be understood as a demand that tests the nature of the recipient to the uttermost.

"What!  Never bathe?  Yuch!"    "But my legs are my best feature!  No armour?"

If you want to look for a RW example, perhaps try Luke 18

 A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”  “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. ²⁰ You know the commandments: ‘You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.’”   “All these I have kept since I was a boy,” he said.  When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”  When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was very wealthy.

I see the purpose of a gaeas as being a test of piety.  It may appear random from the outside, but surely Yelmalio knows the weaknesses of every Yelmalion?

[dragonewt]

Because duckses have a bad reputation and a social stigma attached to them.

[MOB]

4 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

I see the purpose of a gaeas as being a test of piety.  It may appear random from the outside, but surely Yelmalio knows the weaknesses of every Yelmalion?

That's always the way I played it. Yelmalio, the god of MGF. That's why Melo Yelo, when Yelmalio finally deems him fit to join the cult, is always given the geas "Never Eat Horse Meat".

[davecake]

The geases as failed mysticism idea is one that has been around for a long time and that I still like. I'm not sure it fits, or fits in an extrinsic acknowledged way, with every geas using cult, though. In practical terms, Geases and Austerities seem to behave very similarly. 

Not that I think austerities are always associated with failure (there are a number of prominent heroes who gained great magical benefits from austerities who are acknowledged as valid mystics in the East Isles), but transplanting this form of magic into a divine cult that is no longer aware of its mystic roots is clearly failure, so... 

It fits well with Yelmalio, which of course has deep historical links to the mystic Daysenarus cult and the EWF. Yelmalio cultists clearly kind of act like mystics sometimes (all that sitting in a tower meditating on the sun stuff they do in retirement). And they do see to often get the sort of rewards we associate with austerities, like martial skill, immunities to stuff, etc. 

And if Humakti geases are related to mysticism, then it seems very likely these are due to Arkats influence - now, of course, having lost the explicit mystic link. 

I like the idea because it means that some practical mystic magic has been in RQ all along.... 

[simonh]

I agree with Dave Cake. You can look at it from different perspectives. From a mystical perspective they're 'failed mysticism'. From a theist perspective they're tests of commitment. Both can be true.