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14 hours ago, Patrick said:

I can't seem to edit or delete this post!

Edited by David Scott
Can't seem to edit this post!

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14 hours ago, Patrick said:

Ok, I understand better.

However, it sort of leads to the idea that Light Khans can actually perform some ceremonies, doesn't it?

Quote

Differences

Yelmalio amongst the nomads is very different from the organization of the Sun Dome temples. The nomads eschew the use of the pike and shield ground tactics, favoring instead, their mounts, and the long spear and the bow or javelin. They have none of the fixed structures of the temple bound Sun Domers.

Society Organization

In the Wastelands, the society has none of the trappings that the Sun Dome temples may have. No priestly order exists with Light Sons filling the central role. They act within the Praxian social structure as Khans - Light Khans.

 

14 hours ago, Patrick said:

Maybe I'm wrong, but I can hardly believe 12000 Yelmalion nomads are dependant on a weird foreign settlement to run their cult.

You are correct, Praxian Yelmalio is not dependant. As I said they come to pay their respects, then go. It's not a cult centre.

11 hours ago, Joerg said:

The religion is not dependent on the Sun Dome temples. The Sun Dome is there all day long (at least with sufficient use of Cloud Clear).

Correct.

14 hours ago, Patrick said:

(let alone asking whether some of them starting sun worship before the coming of Arinsor!)

This leads in nicely as to how Yelmalio became established with the Praxians. He was there already, rather she was:

Quote

Sky Gazer spirit-talkers point at Sun Daughter travelling the night sky following the same path as her father, they say that foreigners are sometimes heard to called her Lightfore. However, in the Second Age, mercenaries came to the Wastelands and called her a new name - Yelmalio.

[Temple foundation

...] 

 After they had settled, Sable and Impala members of the Sky Gazers spirit society were naturally drawn to the temples. Their nomadic ways were the antithesis of the civilized Sun Domers. But the settlers could not deny their connection, and slowly out in the Wastelands the Yelmalio society came into being, as another schism of the Sky Gazers.

 

11 hours ago, Joerg said:

Or does nomad Yelmalio have another set of geasa?

An altered set. I don't think the geases are standard over the whole of Glorantha. Useless ones would disappear and more relevant one replace them.

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Yeeha!

Do nomad cultists call on shamans to contact Yelmalio?

I like that, somewhat reminds me of the Balazar temple stories...

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5 hours ago, David Scott said:

Sky Gazer spirit-talkers point at Sun Daughter travelling the night sky following the same path as her father, they say that foreigners are sometimes heard to called her Lightfore. However, in the Second Age, mercenaries came to the Wastelands and called her a new name - Yelmalio.

I don't know if this is still canon, but at one time Yelorna was given the epithet Sun Daughter.

Yelorna is, according to older sources, Yelmalio's half-sister, her father being Yelm and her mother Ernalda. As Yelorna has an association with at least two Sun Domes, Ralios and Prax, her association with Yelmalio isn't just a local development (and dates back to the Bright Empire or EWF?)

Some of the older material had Yamsur, Yelmalio and Yelorna as siblings, but it's difficult to align them with the Dara Happan 'Sons of Yelm' (and the two sets of 'Sons of Yelm' given in the Guide in Gloranthan documents are... different). Surprisingly, the genealogies of the Storm Gods are fairly clear and apparently universal, but the genealogy of the Solar Gods isn't.

Edited by M Helsdon

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16 hours ago, Joerg said:

Yelmalio/Tharkantus is a syncretic religion, including all manner of minor local solar deities, or recruiting their worshippers. Probably including Teshnan Somash, Elmal, Ralian Ehilm, elven Halamalao, Rinliddic Vrimak, Golden Bow, Sun Hawk, and Yamsur.

Yamsur is dead and gone. The deities blended into Yelmalio probably differ by region: I'd expect divergent evolution from the Sairdite cult in Ralios and Fronela, and the long isolation has probably caused drift in Prax. Deep down in the origin of the cult lie Hastatus, God of the Spear (sometimes equated with Avivorus) and Antirius, the Dara Happan God of Order, overlaid by subsequent accretion of Heliacal the Sun, Elmal, Halamalao, and others, including Pelorian/Pentan solar horse gods, Ralian solar horse goddesses etc.

Of course these may all be facets of the same deity, filtered by culture and other factors, much as the worship of Orlanth is affected by the proximity of different Holy Mountains.

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There is no reason to suppose that there is no cult of Yamsur, simply because he is dead and gone.  The cultists may simply be misled, very determined, or accessing something that is quite different from their intention....

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On 14 June 2016 at 2:32 PM, Patrick said:

Yeeha!

Do nomad cultists call on shamans to contact Yelmalio?

No, he's a god. Yelmalio wasn't one of the Star Spirits that came down in the Great Darkness. Sun Daughter is known by the Sky Gazers society and receives worship with the whole sky. Likewise they can't contact her, as she wasn't one of the Star Spirits that came down in the Great Darkness. This could change if a HeroQuest made it so.

@MOB this gender change was also the likely cause of the not wearing Women's clothing geas.

Edited by David Scott

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On 6/14/2016 at 6:53 PM, David Scott said:

An altered set. I don't think the geases are standard over the whole of Glorantha. Useless ones would disappear and more relevant one replace them.

The gifts and geases tables in Sun County or Cults of Prax are just examples of the many and varied blessings and restrictions on offer; I'm sure there are many different ones given out from time to time in Sun County and elsewhere. Whether the gifts given are "useless" or "relevant" is all down to ascertaining or rationalizing the ineffable nature of the god's boon.

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17 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

There is no reason to suppose that there is no cult of Yamsur, simply because he is dead and gone. 

Someone could try, but the problem is that Yamsur was destroyed/annihilated by chaos, so its far worse than just dying.  Any heroquest that attempts to find him will run into the hordes of chaos, likely with no recourse or escape - there isn't even a god there to save/aid them.

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On 14 June 2016 at 3:08 PM, M Helsdon said:

I don't know if this is still canon, but at one time Yelorna was given the epithet Sun Daughter.

I'm interested in your reference Martin.

On 14 June 2016 at 3:08 PM, M Helsdon said:

Yelorna is, according to older sources, Yelmalio's half-sister, her father being Yelm and her mother Ernalda. As Yelorna has an association with at least two Sun Domes, Ralios and Prax, her association with Yelmalio isn't just a local development (and dates back to the Bright Empire or EWF?)

Some of the older material had Yamsur, Yelmalio and Yelorna as siblings, but it's difficult to align them with the Dara Happan 'Sons of Yelm' (and the two sets of 'Sons of Yelm' given in the Guide in Gloranthan documents are... different). Surprisingly, the genealogies of the Storm Gods are fairly clear and apparently universal, but the genealogy of the Solar Gods isn't.

It might help you to know that Yelorna is Ourania...

I'll post some notes on the cult in Prax later.

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43 minutes ago, David Scott said:

I'm interested in your reference Martin.

The Book of Drastic Resolutions: Prax, which I know is now mostly non-canonical. There is, however, considerable detail therein about Yelorna.

43 minutes ago, David Scott said:

It might help you to know that Yelorna is Ourania...

There's considerable divergence in the mythology of the two, but then Solar mythology and genealogy is 'messy'.

Having tried to find how Tharkantus/Yelmalio/etc. fit into the Solar pantheon of Dara Happa, and noting the many contradictions in Gloranthan documents quoted in the Guide, GRoy etc. I've come to the conclusion that most in-world material is of doubtful veracity. Even the names of Yelm's eight sons vary. This might reflect just how damaged Solar cultures were when Yelm died, and just how few Solar worshippers survived. If a population falls below a critical number, there simply aren't sufficient people to retain and recall its knowledge, whether mythological or technical. I suspect Dara Happa fell well below this limit, and after Time began those who attempted to reconstruct their culture didn't have much to go by. Surviving artifacts, such as the Godswall are subject to debate; possibly many of the subsequent identification of deities there is suspect...

I find it interesting, that the Yelmalio and Yelorna cults, with their close ties, seem to reflect a different tradition, possibly Sairdite in origin, quite distinct from the low landers to the north.

It has a parallel in the Bronze Age collapse where in most of those cultures that survived, there's a significant disconnect between before and after.

 

Edited by M Helsdon

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As Sun Daughter is Yelmalio, Yelorna is known as Ourania to the Praxian Sky Gazers Society. Likewise the Praxian Yelorna was a splinter of the Sky Gazers Society formed in the First Age when Yelornan Amazons visited Prax with the First Council. There are effectively two forms of the Yelorna cult; a theistic version that's found at their temple in the Rubble, and a Praxian version found out in the Wastes, which is primarily spirit based (with a shaman path), but with a theistic component. There is an awkward relationship between the two groups. If you look at the Big Rubble cult, you'll see that the temple organisation has a High Priestess with 3 subordinate Star Priestesses: 

  • A Temple chief of staff, who commands the four Shield Maidens, who protect the High Priestess.
  • The Commander of the Unicorn Riders, also temple logistics.
  • Wanderer Commander. Commands adventurers and wanderers among the cult, and is responsible for other external affairs.

You'll notice that there is no Wanderer Commander. This post is actually filled by a Star Shaman living with the Unicorn Tribe out in the Wastes. To be a Star Shaman, you have to have a Unicorn and the Praxian Yelornans know Yelorna's Unicorn Path back to the Green Age (just as the Rubble Yelornans do) and HeroQuest to obtain Unicorns - so there's no real argument as to whether she's a Yelornan.

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3 hours ago, David Scott said:

And where is this?

Reputed to be somewhere in central Australia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lasseter's_Reef

I believe MOB has also located it in the Wastelands east of Sun County.

5 hours ago, David Scott said:

Yelorna is known as Ourania to the Praxian Sky Gazers Society. 

The same bright star marking the boundary of the Upper Sky the Theyalans name Silonia, the Goddess of Dance and the wife of Pole Star? Does Ourania have a Praxian name?

Edited by M Helsdon

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3 hours ago, David Scott said:

And where is this?

Beyond the Black Stump.

Ask my players, they have a copy of a map that leads to where ever it might be.

East of Sun County. ...way East and some.

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5 hours ago, David Scott said:

As Sun Daughter is Yelmalio

If the association by different cultures of a planet or star accurately indicates the deities associated with the planet or star are the same, then Yelmalio = Antirius, Kargzant, Sun Daughter, and even the Emperor Daruda.

Yelmalio = Antirius pretty much corresponds to the first Sun Dome Temples.

Yelmalio = Kargzant reinforces the cult association with horses.

Yelmalio = Sun Daughter. Given the various genders assigned to Yelm's Sons in GRoY by way of variation in names this isn't too surprising.

It may or may not be significant that the Guide does not equate Lightfore with Elmal... and further supports the view that Dara Happan mythology is a hopelessly distorted representation of the Solar Empire in the God Time.

8-)

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48 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Not to my knowledge yet

As Ourania/Urania is one of the nine Muses in Classical Mythology, specifically the Muse of Astronomy, she'd be the patron of the Star Gazers?

And Tethys bore to Ocean eddying rivers, Nilus, and Alpheus, and deep-swirling Eridanus, Strymon, and Meander, and the fair stream of Ister, and Phasis, and Rhesus, and the silver eddies of Achelous, Nessus, and Rhodius, Haliacmon, and Heptaporus, Granicus, and Aesepus, and holy Simois, and Peneus, and Hermus, and Caicus' fair stream, and great Sangarius, Ladon, Parthenius, Euenus, Ardescus, and divine Scamander. Also she brought forth a holy company of daughters who with the lord Apollo and the Rivers have youths in their keeping—to this charge Zeus appointed them—Peitho, and Admete, and Ianthe, and Electra, and Doris, and Prymno, and Urania divine in form, Hippo, Clymene, Rhodea, and Callirrhoe, Zeuxo and Clytie, and Idyia, and Pasithoe, Plexaura, and Galaxaura, and lovely Dione, Melobosis and Thoe and handsome Polydora, Cerceis lovely of form, and soft eyed Pluto, Perseis, Ianeira, Acaste, Xanthe, Petraea the fair, Menestho, and Europa, Metis, and Eurynome, and Telesto saffron-clad, Chryseis and Asia and charming Calypso, Eudora, and Tyche, Amphirho, and Ocyrrhoe, and Styx who is the chiefest of them all. These are the eldest daughters that sprang from Ocean and Tethys; but there are many besides. For there are three thousand neat-ankled daughters of Ocean who are dispersed far and wide, and in every place alike serve the earth and the deep waters, children who are glorious among goddesses. And as many other rivers are there, babbling as they flow, sons of Ocean, whom queenly Tethys bare, but their names it is hard for a mortal man to tell, but people know those by which they severally dwell.

Theogony - Hesiod

 

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8 hours ago, David Scott said:

As Sun Daughter is Yelmalio, Yelorna is known as Ourania to the Praxian Sky Gazers Society. 

I thought she would have been better identified as the Hunter constellation making her an equivalent of Lestakus/Saggitus (Dara Happa Archer God), Hensarava (Eastern Isles) or Jumo (Kralorela).

 

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11 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I thought she would have been better identified as the Hunter constellation making her an equivalent of Lestakus/Saggitus (Dara Happa Archer God), Hensarava (Eastern Isles) or Jumo (Kralorela).

 

If Yelmalio = Antirius, and Yelorna = Ourania there's a definite correspondence, as Ourania is the virginal etheric energy of heavenly power born from Dayzatar's thought, whilst her 'brother' is supposedly an emanation of Yelm of justice and victory.


 

 

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16 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I thought she would have been better identified as the Hunter constellation making her an equivalent of Lestakus/Saggitus (Dara Happa Archer God), Hensarava (Eastern Isles) or Jumo (Kralorela).

Wouldn't the Praxian hunter be Foundchild?

 

21 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

As Ourania/Urania is one of the nine Muses in Classical Mythology, specifically the Muse of Astronomy, she'd be the patron of the Star Gazers?

This is obviously a linguistic false friend. Ourania may be the New Pelorian form of an ancient Fire Speech name such as Urdanira (possibly meaning Blue Messenger, referring to her Celestial nature, and her role as intercessor between the Sky World and the Middle World)

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21 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Someone could try, but the problem is that Yamsur was destroyed/annihilated by chaos, so its far worse than just dying.  Any heroquest that attempts to find him will run into the hordes of chaos, likely with no recourse or escape - there isn't even a god there to save/aid them.

Indeed, he is not simply dead, but gone.  I would be more inclined to suggest that any attempt to Quest to him would simply be an automatic fail.  Hope, however, springs eternal in the human breast, and some people simply will not learn.  Therefore I can well imagine a side-chapel in some Sundomes that is little used & where worship is unproductive.

"Ah yes, well, the lack of response indicates that Glorious Yamsur is too heavily engaged in the fight against Chaos to respond.  Let us send him more of our souls to struggle with the krjalki!  Have faith!"

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2 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

If Yelmalio = Antirius, and Yelorna = Ourania there's a definite correspondence, as Ourania is the virginal etheric energy of heavenly power born from Dayzatar's thought, whilst her 'brother' is supposedly an emanation of Yelm of justice and victory.

I don't think Yelmalio is Antirius.  Antirius is a more fiery god capable of giving out sunspears.  I derive Antirius from Ent - Turos, (Right Turos, cf Entekos).  In other words, Antirius is a manifestation of Turos as the upholder of Righteous Order.

There is an association with the Sun Dome Temples and Antirius (Avivath sees the first Sun Dome temple to Antirius in Kestinaddi) but that's a style of temple and one that does not proceed directly from Antirius.  It was used for Daysenervus in Saird because Saird was a place of the Amalgram deities in which various religious influences were imported and synthesised  Daysenervus' magics would be related to what Daysenervus did at the Sunstop.

Ourania is known to the Arirae as FerNa (cf the Entekosiad p59 - the tears give it away) where she acts as a Creatrix.  She doesn't wield any bows there and so I find it difficult to see her acting as the Starbringer or the wielder of the Meteor Bow.  Conceptually Yelorna is about as far removed from Ourania as you can get.  Lastly Yelorna first appears in Tarinwood according to http://www.glorantha.com/docs/safelster-in-the-first-age/

 

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2 hours ago, Tindalos said:

Wouldn't the Praxian hunter be Foundchild?

 

Foundchild doesn't always have a bow and I have a feeling he would be hunting in the Celestial Desert rather than the Celestial Forest. Perhaps the Thasus constellation.

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