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Windstop, the Waters, and the Skyfall

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@David ScottI'm interested in Great Darkness parallels too, and I'm sure its myths are going to be visited a lot by those trying to survive in the bleak conditions of the Windstop. During the Great Darkness rivers answered the call to flow back to the ocean despite glacial conditions, so I expect quests to find and use that vigour and determination to try to keep water flowing. There will be new revelations of Foundchild's teachings about how to hunt and survive in such desperate straits. I wonder too if chaotic beings will revisit what was a golden age for them, and try to shift things in their favour?

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23 minutes ago, m0n0cular said:

During the Great Darkness rivers answered the call to flow back to the ocean despite glacial conditions, so I expect quests to find and use that vigour and determination to try to keep water flowing.

The rivers lept towards the great hole caused by the spike exploding, so I think they are already in place. As for the whole frozen water thing, this is about the mythology of water being overcome by darkness (cold) and not real world physics. In this case the sun hasn't left the sky, and the darkness hasn't risen from the underworld, it's the wind that's stopped. I'm wondering what the Lunars had to do the kill Orlanth and Ernalda that the darkness has returned. The Lunars have little control over water, so there must be something else.

23 minutes ago, m0n0cular said:

There will be new revelations of Foundchild's teachings about how to hunt and survive in such desperate straits.

Hunting in agricultural areas is always going to be less than in the wild. Hunters will be more valued in this situation as they can bring in food if prey is found. Some may begin to worship the hunting gods to help them hunt. Foundchild's Great Darkness mythology is very simple, he taught people to hunt and so helped them survive. Later he taught Waha the same. There's nothing new to reveal. In Prax the herds were moved over the river so mostly they survived. Prax became a very quiet eerie place, the Paps withdrew and went to sleep apart from a few vigilant warriors. Some herds survive in the sacred ground, the Paps Khan is Waha, he begins his Ritual tasks to save the world (Sadly this is Inire the Red who does nothing, protected by Moon magic at Moonbroth, it's Roneer the Hue, the unofficial Paps Khan who starts the Tasks).

23 minutes ago, m0n0cular said:

I wonder too if chaotic beings will revisit what was a golden age for them, and try to shift things in their favour?

Chaos naturally begins to appear. This is the main enemy of the time. In Prax, the Devil's Marsh begins to spew monsters, children of Wakboth who head the short distance to the Paps to lay siege. Over at Wolfhead, Chaos wolves begin spawning in their hundreds and fanning out across the land in search of prey. Mallia and Thed make their presence felt, with epic fights against Storm Bull mimicking events from the Great Darkness. Outside the Windstop, monsters from the Krjalki Bog begin to move towards the area. The western Palace grasslands are overwhelmed by monsters erupting from the bog, storm Bulls lead the fight, with many others moving in to support them. Further out, monsters from the tunnelled hills start to move as well, Storm Bulls rally and begin an ernest campaign. This is what they have trained their whole life for.

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@David ScottSo the rivers have already been formed before the Great Darkness really takes its grip on the land. Makes sense, as their actions after the Spike exploded were extremely urgent. The characters in my current campaign are just about to embark on a quest to summon Dwerrow, the river that cuts across central Balazar, to answer the call to fill the chaos rift... this gives me a good steer on prevailing conditions when they cross to the other side.

Did the dominance of cold over water, which stilled many rivers, create any sort of crisis in keeping Magasta's Pool replenished?

And a slight aside - what, in mythological terms, creates the distinction between salt and fresh water in Glorantha?

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8 hours ago, David Scott said:

Chaos naturally begins to appear. This is the main enemy of the time.

Since there are no explicit chaos nests in Esrolia, my main thoughts there are:

1) with the river around Korovaka the Necropolis frozen, the dead cross back into the land of the living.  The divide between the two is gone. 

2) the forests and brown elves go to sleep e.g. the great Arstola Forest within the Wind Stop and the Old Woods.  With the divide between the living/dead gone, these are also the Nightwoods and the things of the Nightwood emerge to plague the lands nearby.

3) Nontraya the Taker returns to Esrolia and begins to hunt the daughters of Ernalda (possibly goddesses or possibly her representatives - priestesses and/or queens).  He might come out of the Nightwood, out of the Necropolis, or out of the Black Maw.

4) demons may escape the Black Maw during the night when Yelm is no longer visible.  The Watchtower of Nochet will be very busy.

6 hours ago, m0n0cular said:

what, in mythological terms, creates the distinction between salt and fresh water in Glorantha?

I don't recall it ever explicitly stated, but two thoughts:

1) the continued devolution and separation of the waters, particularly as the Blue Dragon (Sshorg/Aroka/Oslira) separates from the oceans

2) the purification of the waters necessary to enter the Sky Realm - that is Lorion the Sky River undertakes the purification (perhaps it is the shedding of Heler's Golden Tear?) that removes the salts from the water.  All rivers as well as the waters of the clouds then followed Lorion's path and allowed them to rise higher. 

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11 hours ago, David Scott said:

... Foundchild's Great Darkness mythology is very simple, he taught people to hunt and so helped them survive. Later he taught Waha the same. There's nothing new to reveal ...

... unless there is.

Seriously:  why couldn't Foundchild have learned/grown, discovered new mysteries to reveal to his followers?

 

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Does the Desert Wind, which is actually an emanation of the Storm Bull and not of Orlanth, still blow over the RIver of Craddles ?

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18 minutes ago, g33k said:

... unless there is.

Seriously:  why couldn't Foundchild have learned/grown, discovered new mysteries to reveal to his followers?

That's the whole idea with the compromise and time, the gods are bound to act the way they always did. The cool part is that heroes can HeroQuest back to find new ways to act. With foundchild it's likely with new types of animal or old ones that have been forgotten. Ultimately he's a hunter God, who hunts, dresses his kills, shares them with his kin and sings the spirits of the dead animals back into the great cycle of reincarnation. I'm unsure what there is beyond that.

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10 minutes ago, Zit said:

Does the Desert Wind, which is actually an emanation of the Storm Bull and not of Orlanth, still blow over the RIver of Craddles ?

No, it goes up to the edge of the Windstop and vanishes. All winds in the Wastes move towards this edge where possible. 

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On 9/5/2016 at 1:30 PM, David Scott said:

That's the whole idea with the compromise and time, the gods are bound to act the way they always did. The cool part is that heroes can HeroQuest back to find new ways to act. With foundchild it's likely with new types of animal or old ones that have been forgotten. Ultimately he's a hunter God, who hunts, dresses his kills, shares them with his kin and sings the spirits of the dead animals back into the great cycle of reincarnation. I'm unsure what there is beyond that.

Well... off the top of my head:

Hunters -- and especially the Great Hunter -- often hunt in stealth.  They are opportunistic, not "I will hunt Bison" today, but "I will fill the pot today;" and if Bison aren't to be found, well, there's other game.  A full pot lets the tribe be strong, and grow!

What if Foundchild began hunting Heroes and Heroquesters?  Not to put in the pot to eat, but to put in his cult... to be strong, and grow?  Taught them to hunt "unusual" game, in unusual ways:  not just for the food-pot but also for the spirit-pot?

It's still "the hunt," it's still sharing with kin/followers, it's still nourishing the cult/tribe, it's still teaching the hunt, etc...  He's still within the Compromise, still the Hunter.  But as his HeroQuest'ers elaborate and expand upon what it means to hunt, to be a hunter... as they unfold new legends, and new meanings to old ones... Then "who Foundchild is," within the Compromise, becomes greater than what he began as.

Re-cast Zorak Zoran's combat-ambush of Yelmalio as a hunt-ambush, and steal ZZ's fire-powers?  I can see it!

 

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7 hours ago, g33k said:

What if Foundchild began hunting Heroes and Heroquesters?

Sounds very much like Thanatar (or the Lunars)!  Hunts heroes and questers, puts into his cult, ...

I do not see that as Foundchild at all.

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A couple of things to consider:  First, the Columbia River Gorge is credited with being the inspiration for the Zola Fel.  Second, that gorge was created by the greatest flash flood ever known to man.  20,000 years ago, the glaciers burst and carved out what is known now as The Scablands.  Obviously, a similar event transpired after the Great Darkness to create the Zola Fel River Valley.

Now we have a minor "Great Darkness" and we have a (comparatively) minor Great Flood.  To get an idea of what we're talking here, read this about the scablands in eastern Washington:  http://hugefloods.com/Scablands.html

And this:  http://www.sevenwondersofwashingtonstate.com/the-channeled-scablands.html

I imagine Jor Jor the Quick looking at the approaching flood and saying "We're gonna need bigger walls!"  New Pavis would be doomed.  Even Hilltop wouldn't be high enough.  And I'm not talking "flooding", I'm talking when the wave hits.

Edited by Pentallion

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On 9/8/2016 at 9:34 AM, Pentallion said:

Now we have a minor "Great Darkness" and we have a (comparatively) minor Great Flood.  To get an idea of what we're talking here, read this about the scablands in eastern Washington:  http://hugefloods.com/Scablands.html

Another excerpt from The Future History of Sun County, abridged of a few details:

Daga Contained

Invictus ventured back into the parched countryside, stalking the drought god through scenes of devastation, death and suffering. Daga himself eluded him, until early one morning before the dawn a piercing golden light appeared on the horizon. Taking it as a sign, he headed north. Several days later, in the dry bed of the Zola Fel just below the now-mockingly named hamlet of Highwater, the Light Captain once again faced Daga. The drought god stood contemptuously over the wilted form of Kinope, the gentle daughter of Zela Fel. The water spirit was attempting to drag herself through the parched sand to a last puddle, visibly drying up in front of her.

Stepping between her and the leering spectre, Invictus invoked the bond between land and river, calling out for Zola Fel as he brandished the brass jar. The river god’s response was immediate and emphatic, as a tremendous wall of furious water suddenly surged down through the dry gorge towards the combatants.

Faced with the angry flood, Daga’s sneering visage crumbled and he retreated in fear into the brass jar... (Invictus) felt he was sure to drown but resolved to hang on to the jar to the last. Although flood continued on its wild and destructive path, Invictus suddenly found himself in the tender embrace of the water spirit. Kinope pulled him clear and left him on the clifftop near the deserted village, half-dead and sodden but still clasping the jar. She kissed his brow and then leapt joyfully back into the raging current...

...(Invictus) trudged back to the Sun Dome Temple while floodwaters began to spread out over the farmlands behind him. Daga was contained and the drought broken...

...when he finally staggered back into the Sun Dome, the Light Captain learned the beckoning signal that had drawn him to Highwater Gorge was none other than the Goldenblood Light, shining like a star in the hands of the unlikely hero Melo Yelo atop Angle Fort. Invictus had ended the drought, and thanks to the questers at the Devil’s Playground the grip of Great Winter was released. However, Count Solanthos was dead. By the laws and customs of the land, he as Light Captain would be the new count.

Count Invictus's short and unhappy reign began...

Edited by MOB
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On 9/5/2016 at 9:08 PM, g33k said:

... unless there is.

Seriously:  why couldn't Foundchild have learned/grown, discovered new mysteries to reveal to his followers?

 

That's what Heroes are for.

Heroes reveal truth about their deities through HeroQuesting.

If you want to reveal a secret about Foundchild, then learn his secrets and HeroQuest. You will probably start a subcult of Foundchild with yourself at the head, but it would be a Foundchild secret.

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Look at the Odayla spirit trapping powers that he can use to create charms from the spirits of slain animals in the Sartar Companion. It is very plausible that Foundchild has access to similar magic. Now just extend that to beings other than animals, so you can also defeat and trap the spirits of other beings and turn them into charms, and you have something powerful and a bit scary. 

But isn't it something powerful and scary that resembles the Cannibal Cult, which also takes power from their slain prey/enemies, just a little too much? 

Perhaps there is a secret of Foundchild there. And its not a very nice one..... 

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4 hours ago, davecake said:

Perhaps there is a secret of Foundchild there. And its not a very nice one..... 

Or perhaps Foundchild confronted such and recognized its inherent evil and created taboos against such???

Plus I suspect that any hero who takes such a path will find some other spirit/deity/demon may either hold the power already, or is also striving for the same power.  And the result of such a fight may rip/tear certain abilities away from the hero (and Foundchild).

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If you start hunting humans, yeah, there are people who already have that power. And they are not nice people. 

But there is heaps of story potential here. A hunter villain that starts using his spirit trapping magic on sentient beings must be hunted down. Or a hunter PC learns how to do it as a way to defeat a difficult to defeat enemy (say, a spirit that keeps possessing people) - then discovers he has tapped into a nasty ancient secret, and now cannibals want to confront him to preserve their power. 

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In the Praxian Pantheon, one of the ways that new spirit societies come into being by breaking away from an already established society. One well known example is that of the Ghost Darter society. They were originally an offshoot of the Foundchild Spirit society that specialised in hunting the malevolent spirits that preyed on the herds. Likely formed by a shaman who had found a spirit who taught him the unique ability to target spirits with his darts and arrows. Society members can teach this to others, but with a taboo that unless a member of the society, they cannot teach others. Members are nearly all Foundchild members as well. The spirit who teaches the abilities could be a Foundchild ancestor, an independent spirit, something it shouldn't be like a spirit portion of Yelm the archer, etc

Edited by David Scott
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On 8.9.2016 at 2:57 AM, MOB said:

...(Invictus) trudged back to the Sun Dome Temple while floodwaters began to spread out over the farmlands behind him. Daga was contained and the drought broken...

...when he finally staggered back into the Sun Dome, the Light Captain learned the beckoning signal that had drawn him to Highwater Gorge was none other than the Goldenblood Light, shining like a star in the hands of the unlikely hero Melo Yelo atop Angle Fort. Invictus had ended the drought, and thanks to the questers at the Devil’s Playground the grip of Great Winter was released. However, Count Solanthos was dead. By the laws and customs of the land, he as Light Captain would be the new count.

Count Invictus's short and unhappy reign began...

on which date did this hapen ?

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21 minutes ago, Zit said:

on which date did this hapen ?

When the Windstop ended. Just like I Fought We Won, there was mythic convergence and synchronicity of all the heroquesting actions various people were taking to loosen the grip of the Great Winter, and those that succeeded all did so at the same moment.

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The Guide says It was a week after the battle of Auroch Hills:

Quote

Orlanth's Ring still did not emerge from the Stormgate. Instead, three new stars appeared where Orlanth's Ring should have been...

the exact date is likely in KoS or Orlanth is Dead, or you can work it out with the ephemeris. 

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Here's another Windstop map I did about 2 years ago and nearly finished. Based on the political maps of the guide it shows (nearly) all of the cultural / political areas under the Windstop. I suspect the orange area is unfinished (Balazar??)...

Screen Shot 2016-09-09 at 23.16.28.png

I would say that each area has at least one group of heroquestors working to save the world. It's these groups MOB was referring to.

10 hours ago, MOB said:

Just like I Fought We Won, there was mythic convergence and synchronicity of all the heroquesting actions various people were taking to loosen the grip of the Great Winter, and those that succeeded all did so at the same moment.

As you can see the Windstop affected a much wider range of groups than just Sartarites and Praxians. Any suggestions for what the other groups were up greatly appreciated.

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Shouldn't the Glowline protect Tarsh? I thought they weren't impacted by the Great Winter...?


Otherwise, it would be interesting to see what they did to stop it: a re-birthing of the Goddess where the 7 Mothers would search for Orlanth/Storm instead?

And what did they bring back, then: Doburdun, Orlanth with a vengeance, some kind of Storm Dragon that flew immediately to an unknown destination...?

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