Weapon Special Effects in new RQ

[RosenMcStern]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

Yes it does. I actually remember at least two cases back in my prosecuting attorney days where a knife got stuck in its victim (and didn't kill the victim). One involved a sheriff's department response to a domestic violence case. The abusive husband/boyfriend stabbed the deputy in the shoulder while the deputy was trying to help the victim escape. The deputy turned (and the knife stayed stuck in his shoulder) and he shot his attacker dead. The other case involved a victim who got stabbed with a knife and ran away with a knife stuck in his belly.

Case closed (pun not intended). It can get stuck.

[MJ Sadique]

On 27/09/2016 at 5:21 PM, styopa said:

I'd use the 'missile' one for thrusting weapons too.

Love this one ! and good job Atgxtg, you merit the check but you forgot to add the knockback standard effect (because the full rules give you a true moment of despair). But I never use the stuck effect unless the player need it -to kill down someone by voluntary moving the blade in the body- so a simple luck/dex roll to solve this is enough for me.

 

19 hours ago, Mankcam said:

...
doing double Damage Bonus, it makes it easy to remember. However for the sake of fairness I would have to rule that Crush grants a 1D4 DB in the advent of a character not having any natural Damage Bonus.
...
I'm just wondering if this would be a viable house rule, or if it is an unnecessary complication?

For this, I already find a counter years ago : Full Attack Bonus Damage. You just calculate a BD with FORx2 + TAI : You get a "BD : 0 / 1D4" easy to use on the sheet (no editing, no complex rules) and you just have to remember it's a double strength attack.

I had to use it for "berserk type attack" costing the full-two actions and it's the most fair because even an aldryami' runner with -1D4 could win a 0 Bonus Damage (runner 1-0 PC) and my player with 1D6 BD had luck gaining a +3D6.

For Slashing case, my best : if you lose even 1HP and base damage (before armor reduction) are strictly superior to location's HP then this localisation is incapacitated OR (double theme) you could also say if the double of HP lost is superior to the HP's locations, the localisation is incapacitated !

• The wergeld will be easier to obtain and fighting will not be resume to kill each other. I favor this initiative ! to not kill is a better option !

For Slashing case, my worth :  I was thinking about another realist alternative which is Double localisation damage : you do the same damage but roll a second localisation and it's just as deadly as the impaling.

• Sweeping movement help a giant getting multiples PC, why not a PC getting multiples localisation ? I love it but prefer incapacitate as better bleeding rule !

 

To Jeff : Will there be (specials effets for) hooks and nets ?

[Atgxtg]

5 hours ago, jux said:

I agree that for the weapon to get stuck - it is logical for spear and it takes extra effort to pull it out. But stabbing with knife, it's like cutting orange. There is no effort pulling it out.

No, a an impaling attack is a thrusting attack. So it's not like cutting an orange, it like stabbing an apple. They key to the impale is that the attack is supposed to produce a deep puncture wound. If it is just a surface cut, it wouldn't do all that much damage. Keep in mind that the average impale does more damage than the weapons normal max damage is a slashing or swinging attack.

[Mankcam]

On 28 September 2016 at 8:13 AM, Mankcam said:

As an aside, I do like the success levels in CoC 7E and will find it difficult without them in a BRP game now. The extra level, the Hard Sucess (equal to half skill % score) just helps define opposed rolls etc

I am considering using them in RQ if they are not in the new version. One of the areas I am toying with is Weapon Effects. I am considering that a Hard Success grants the possibility of a Weapon Effect, although it can be resisted by the opponent making a toughness roll (CON x5%).

The Special Success would still remain as it would mean the Weapon Effect is automatically inflicted, as per current rules.

I think it would make each weapon type feel different if there was a greater chance of these effects, which is a strength in RQ6/Mythras. Combat may end up being quicker in some cases. 

I'm just wondering if this would be a viable house rule, or if it is an unnecessary complication?

Anyone got any views on having one extra success level (equal to half skill)?  It seems to work quite well in CoC 7E.

Does anyone think it may work well with Weapon Effects?

I feel it may quicken combat in some scenes, but  don't want to add a complication to the rules unless it is an enhancement.  

Any views?

[g33k]

6 hours ago, jux said:

I agree that for the weapon to get stuck - it is logical for spear and it takes extra effort to pull it out. But stabbing with knife, it's like cutting orange. There is no effort pulling it out.

Unless it's a quite short, and strongly-tapered blade, you can certainly get a knife stuck on an "impale" !  That isn't a "cut" (as you would an orange, with length-of-blade edge-on, and a slight sawing/slashing movement) -- it's a deep stab, point-first.

[styopa]

8 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Special Knockback

When smashing or slashing weapons such as broadswords or maces score a special success, the target is knocked back one meter for every 5 points of rolled damage (as opposed to damage from normal hits which only use the damage in excess of SIZ.) If the target's player does not make a successful DEX X5 roll for his character, the character will also fall down. Use the standard knockback rules to determine further injury by incidental collision with intervening obstacles. 

So slash = smash?  That's underwhelming.  Good find tho.  

 

6 hours ago, jux said:

I agree that for the weapon to get stuck - it is logical for spear and it takes extra effort to pull it out. But stabbing with knife, it's like cutting orange. There is no effort pulling it out.

Never worked in a butchery, have you?

I *totally* can see a weapon being hard to pull out, in some cases (ie if it wedges in bone).  Work in a meatmarket for any length of time, you'll know.  (BTW, severing a limb on a single blow? REALLY hard to do, and thats when it's immobile, prone (effectively) and you have the perfect tool.)

 

1 hour ago, Mankcam said:

Anyone got any views on having one extra success level (equal to half skill)?  It seems to work quite well in CoC 7E.

Does anyone think it may work well with Weapon Effects?

I feel it may quicken combat in some scenes, but  don't want to add a complication to the rules unless it is an enhancement.  

Any views?

I'm not convinced it's not just extra complication.  What would it do that would be more than normal weapon damage but less than 2x AND still be meaningful?

16 minutes ago, g33k said:

Unless it's a quite short, and strongly-tapered blade, you can certainly get a knife stuck on an "impale" !  That isn't a "cut" (as you would an orange, with length-of-blade edge-on, and a slight sawing/slashing movement) -- it's a deep stab, point-first.

In which case I could certainly see having it simply be a special effect of a 'punch dagger' or what have you, that it has 2x the chance to be removed from an impale.  One of those nice little 'custom weapon' sorts of character-adding things that aren't as powerful, nor as dull, as simply +5% to hit, +1 damage...zzzz.  I like it.

[Mankcam]

4 hours ago, styopa said:

I'm not convinced it's not just extra complication.  

What would it do that would be more than normal weapon damage but less than 2x AND still be meaningful?

Sometimes it  be may be more satisfying to achieve a actual better result if you roll under half attack skill. In this case the result would just mean that there is a chance of the Weapon Effect happening a little more often, depending upon whether the opponent fails an opposed roll (CON x5%). 

The fact that Weapon Effects may occur a little more regularly may also create a sense that the weapons feel different due to having different effects (which RQ6/Mythras captures well). 

Have not done this in play before, although I think someone posted a similar idea a while back (before CoC 7E was published), and I was just wondering if this has been a reasonable idea, or if it will make things too complex for the average player?

 

Edited September 29, 2016 by Mankcam

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Mankcam said:

Sometimes it  be may be more satisfying to achieve a actual better result if you roll under half attack skill. In this case the result would just mean that there is a chance of the Weapon Effect happening a little more often, depending upon whether the opponent fails an opposed roll (CON x5%). 

The fact that Weapon Effects may occur a little more regularly may also create a sense that the weapons feel different due to having different effects (which RQ6/Mythras captures well). 

Have not done this in play before, although I think someone posted a similar idea a while back (before CoC 7E was published), and I was just wondering if this has been a reasonable idea, or if it will make things too complex for the average player?

 

Personally, I dislike this specific implementation:  the extra roll (opposed CONx5) is a slow-down.  Otherwise, I like implicit granularity...

[Mankcam]

I'm still mulling it over in regards to envisioning how it would play out at the gaming table, and potentially slowing down the combat scene is the stumbling block I have.

However on the other hand if the CONx5% roll is failed then the Weapon Effect itself will hasten the combat scene due to the increased damage, but I have to weigh up whether that's worth it or not. 

Food for thought I guess.

Back on topic, in regards to how weapon effects are going to be in the next edition of RuneQuest, I would have been unhappy if it had gone back to RQ3 having the imbalance of Impale and not much else. I can live with Crushing, Slashing, and Impaling Effects, and I will possibly just add the BGB Entangling Effect if it's not already included. I do like that the BGB Bleeding Effect has been replaced by the earlier RQ2 Slashing Effect, which seems so much better to me. 

Anyway if there's no more input on this then I'm happy wrapping this thread up here, considering I was the OP and Jeff answered my initial queries regarding how Weapon Effects will be occurring in CRQ4.

I do like the direction it is going in 

Edited September 29, 2016 by Mankcam

[RosenMcStern]

10 hours ago, Mankcam said:

Anyone got any views on having one extra success level (equal to half skill)?  It seems to work quite well in CoC 7E.

Does anyone think it may work well with Weapon Effects?

There is no such thing as the "average" player. Some players will scream "On no another rule to keep track of!", while others will remember how often you need to rely on special hits to take a foe down and realize that this kind of rule would speed up play.

However, a CON x5 roll would be terribly unelegant, as it would imply that the target passes a CON roll first to check whether it suffers the effect, and then another CON roll to see if it goes down in case the effect does a lot of damage. Too much rolling, too much rolling on the same score.

My personal take on this - which you have probably already seen elsewhere - is to change the chance of the effect occurring according to the weapon and fighter quality. For a low quality weapon, the effect only happens on a crit. For a high quality weapon or a master of the combat style, 50% of the skill might be enough. This does not require many more rules to remember, nor much more calculations once you have got accustomed to CoC7, but does a lot towards, for instance, letting you "feel" the difference between a dark ages sword which barely has a point and a rapier which has been carefully balanced for maximum effectiveness when thrusting. Aside from the obvious difference between a wood logging axe and one specifically designed to be a weapon.

[Mankcam]

Yes the CON x 5% is a clunky idea, but it was all I could come up with at the time. I knew it wasn't a great fit.

I don't mind your idea regarding weapon and fighter quality, it's much more logical than another roll during the combat round, and it covers the flavour I was looking for in regards to having each weapon feel different from one another. I'm not sure how much work it will be to put such a rule in place, but it is definitely an improvement over having a CON x5% roll. It's great to be able to brainstorm on these forums.

Thanks for giving me some views on this, and this is certainly giving me something to think about 

Edited September 29, 2016 by Mankcam

[MJ Sadique]

I doesn't happen often but I perfectly agree with RosenMcStern : for Glorantha, fighting need to be hard, 1/5 special is perfectly fine. If you want more specials, or play a runelord you'd better use a spell or your rune. And as master at CoC v7, Major success don't give much damage/effects and don't feel as great as special in RQ. Moreover half time impaling people feel awfully wrong.

About CONx5 % roll : I don't like ALL Carac x5 % rolls, cause players need to calculate (1), roll the dice (2) then compare (3) and sometimes recalculate the special (4°..step in hell). In CoC they just use percentiles from the start sparring the boring calculations. For RuneQuest a simple CAR+D10 do the trick and even spare you the oppositions tables.

I think the comparison between damage and HP localisation (including CON, SIZ and localisation relative size) is still better. If you want some randomness in it just add a Damage + D10 vs HP localisation +D10. Each player just use an extra D10 (or 2D10 if using true sword/ true spear/Cortana class weapon) it's the fastest and closest to the rules I found out.

 

[jux]

13 hours ago, styopa said:

Never worked in a butchery, have you?

I *totally* can see a weapon being hard to pull out, in some cases (ie if it wedges in bone).  Work in a meatmarket for any length of time, you'll know.  (BTW, severing a limb on a single blow? REALLY hard to do, and thats when it's immobile, prone (effectively) and you have the perfect tool.)

I have done my share of real cooking and have stabbed a pork leg before - it does get stuck. But living human flesh, lungs, guts - it's not so stiff I would imagine.
My comparison to stabbing an orange, is based on highly scientific and tested youtube vlog

Edited September 29, 2016 by jux

[g33k]

4 hours ago, jux said:

I have done my share of real cooking and have stabbed a pork leg before - it does get stuck. But living human flesh, lungs, guts - it's not so stiff I would imagine.
My comparison to stabbing an orange, is based on highly scientific and tested youtube vlog

Remember that an "impale" is a special effect -- unusual, and doing more damage than the weapon can "normally" do!  It has struck more-deeply than most blows.

I could see a GM or group House-Rule that a narrow blade that scores an "impale" to an un-armored abdomen doesn't get stuck, as a special case.  But armored targets (including tough enough hide) should ALWAYS be susceptible to the "weapon stuck" effect, as should most hit-locations.  Of course, YGMV...

[Yelm's Light]

10 minutes ago, g33k said:

Remember that an "impale" is a special effect -- unusual, and doing more damage than the weapon can "normally" do!  It has struck more-deeply than most blows.

I could see a GM or group House-Rule that a narrow blade that scores an "impale" to an un-armored abdomen doesn't get stuck, as a special case.  But armored targets (including tough enough hide) should ALWAYS be susceptible to the "weapon stuck" effect, as should most hit-locations.  Of course, YGMV...

Even an abdomen shot is very likely to get stuck in the spinal column.

[g33k]

Just now, Yelm's Light said:

Even an abdomen shot is very likely to get stuck in the spinal column.

I'd accept "possible" but not "very likely."  The abdomen is a target almost 20" across, the spine about 2" across.  Sure it happened, but I'd guess it was the vast minority of fight-ending blows to the gut...

 

[olskool]

I liked the Special Effects listed in the back of RQ2's book.  I eventually "modded" them to the following...

Impale: Does Weapon's MAXIMUM Damage + Weapon's ROLLED Damage + ROLLED STR Bonus Damage = Total Damage.  The weapon may become stuck.  

Slash: Does Weapon's ROLLED Damage + Weapon's ROLLED Damage + ROLLED STR Bonus Damage = Total Damage.  The weapon may become stuck, BUT the chance of extracting it is DOUBLE the chance of removing an Impale (because impales penetrate much deeper).

Crush: Does Weapon's MAXIMUM Damage + MAXIMUM STR Bonus Damage = Total Damage.  The weapon does not become "stuck" in the target.

Critical Hits: Does 2 X Weapon's MAXIMUM TOTAL Damage (Weapon+STR Damage) OR the Weapon's Maximum Total Damage (weapon+STR Damage) and ignores the defender's NON-MAGICAL armor, at the attacker's option. 

Knockdown:  I averaged STR, SIZ, and DEX to get a character's (or NPC's) Knockdown rating.  This average was the damage needed to knock a character prone.  A character would be knocked back 1 meter for damage exceeding 2 X Knockdown, 2 meters if the damage exceeded 3 X Knockdown, and so on.  Knockdowns generally only occur on Special Successes because normal weapon damage didn't run as high as the 12 average score needed for a Knockdown to occur.  This is intentional as most experienced fighters are hard to knock down in real life.    

 I didn't really buy into MRQ's/RQ6's method of using Special Effects (designed to mirror the cinematic effects seen in video games) because they overshadowed the brutal nature of RQ melee.  In fact, they would have made a pretty good card game ("I'll see your Pin Weapon, and raise you a Change Range!").  That being said, IF they were used exclusively for Special Success in RQ, they would have a lot of merit there.  Both Impales and Slashes could include the RQ6 "Bleed" effect. Crushing Blows could include "Stun Location" and flails and whips could include "Entangle Location" as well.  Grappling/HTH Crushing Blows could include "Pin Weapon/Location" as well.  Parried Slashes and Crushes could allow the application of "Sunder Weapon" at the attacker's option.  These effects would be in addition to the enhanced damage rolls, of course.

 

   

[styopa]

12 hours ago, olskool said:

 I didn't really buy into MRQ's/RQ6's method of using Special Effects (designed to mirror the cinematic effects seen in video games) because they overshadowed the brutal nature of RQ melee.  In fact, they would have made a pretty good card game ("I'll see your Pin Weapon, and raise you a Change Range!").  That being said, IF they were used exclusively for Special Success in RQ, they would have a lot of merit there.  Both Impales and Slashes could include the RQ6 "Bleed" effect. Crushing Blows could include "Stun Location" and flails and whips could include "Entangle Location" as well.  Grappling/HTH Crushing Blows could include "Pin Weapon/Location" as well.  Parried Slashes and Crushes could allow the application of "Sunder Weapon" at the attacker's option.  These effects would be in addition to the enhanced damage rolls, of course.   

I liked the idea of choosing effects based on your success level enough that I toyed with it a long time...but (aside from very particular circumstances) like in RQ6 (IMO) there the 'optimal' choices are pretty nearly always the same, which really then takes away the value of the variety anyway?  

Where (in RQ6) there were options that were good that weren't ignore armor and extra damage, they were - to me specifically - gamey and disproportionally overpowered.

So I eventually gave up monkeying with it as excessive detail for too little reward....a path I tread fairly often.   :|

[Pentallion]

On 9/26/2016 at 0:45 AM, Jeff said:

If you don't have a damage bonus, then crushing weapons are a bit disappointing. The solution is to either use Strength or use a different weapon. That being said, even with a 1D4 damage modifier, a light mace will do the same average damage on a special than a short spear or short sword. A light mace will do 1D6+2+1D4+4 on a special or 12 points on average. A short sword or short spear will do 2D6+2+1D4 or 11 to 12 points on average. But once you start getting higher damage modifiers, Crush really becomes dangerous.  That average Dark Troll does 1D8+2+1D6+6 on a Crush (10 to 22 points damage), but that average Great Troll does 2D8+2D6+12 (16 to 40 points damage). Yowsers! Even if I parry with my medium shield (12 points) and I have bronze armor (6 points), I still can get instantly splattered.

On the other hand, it makes me think Orlanth Adventurous and Babeester Gor are the best cults for defending against Great Trolls and Giants. 

We always compared Great Parry to having a Stormbringer Parry where you could parry a dragon with your dagger and nothing got through.  Someone always said "Tink."  and they would laugh and say that when they had Great Parry cast too.

[Jusmak]

I have played a way like Olskool described, but adding special knockback to crushing weapons, to give them a bit more advantage. So, those weapons are more playable even without damagebonus. Every special giving knocback with a blunt weapon forces opponent to throw dex x 5 or fall. Bashing attacks unbalance, that is simply so. I also liked that it is more characteristic, than just adding more numbers to damage.

I played earlier with RQ6/Mythras rules, my own fusion rules to bring RQ3 rule set more "effects", but then desregarded all, and played with RAW. After all, gaming should not become "effect hunting", but roleplaying. It was not actually my liking in RQ6, that every hit was a "special", having a effect. It is not like that in real fight. There should be also "normal" hits, which are a majority in fighting, so 20 % is good percentage for specials. Even a normal hit brings effects, by wounding.

It is far better to try for example disarming, subduing, aimed blow intentionally decreasing chance to hit, than doing those things by "effects". RQ6 just went wrong or too far with effects. There is enough effects and variation now in RQ2/3, by knockback rules, special effects, breaking attacking weapon with parry, breaking parrying weapon, entangling, hitting or grappling with empty hand (no shield used), or kicking even, intentional knockback, and effects when location get a hit. Plus magical effects by spells. Actually there is not much to do to make it better... exept unarmed combat. Well, maybe few effect options could be more to chooce from, but not too much

.