Weapon Special Effects in new RQ

[Mankcam]

I'm unsure if this has already been presented in the Design Notes or not:

Are we aware of what weapon damage effects occur when a Special Success is rolled in combat in CRQ4?

I cannot remember if Stormbringer or Magic World had these effects, as I have mainly followed the other lines of BRP (Given that SB/MW use a Major Wound table instead of rolling Hit Locations, I suspect weapon effects may have been different, or perhaps not included).

RQ2/ RQ Classic has the Impaling effect , with optional rules for Slashing and Crushing effects. For some reason I recollect RQ3 only having the Impaling effect, I may be wrong. 

The BGB covers similar concepts with slightly different mechanics, with different weapons granting one of these effects upon a Special Success attack roll:  Bleeding, Crushing, Impaling, and Entangling.

CoC 7E just has Extreme Damage, and the GM narrates whatever trappings seem relevant to the situation.

I am just wondering if it has been presented anywhere how these effects are likely to be portrayed in the next version of RQ?

[Jeff]

The weapon damage of a special (or critical) success depends on the type of weapon. We all know the good old Impale. Twice normal damage plus the weapon gets stuck (which can cause continued damage, but also means the attacker must pull out the weapon or lose its use). Impales tend to kill.

Slash also does twice normal damage. If the hit points in the location equal or are surpassed by the slashing damage, the target must make a roll or be incapacitated. Slashes tend to incapacitate.

Crush adds maximum possible damage bonus (on top of regular rolled damage bonus). This is horrific when you are fighting someone with a +2D6 or greater damage modifier (like a large dark troll or a great troll). 

 

[Mankcam]

57 minutes ago, Jeff said:

The weapon damage of a special (or critical) success depends on the type of weapon. We all know the good old Impale. Twice normal damage plus the weapon gets stuck (which can cause continued damage, but also means the attacker must pull out the weapon or lose its use). Impales tend to kill.

Slash also does twice normal damage. If the hit points in the location equal or are surpassed by the slashing damage, the target must make a roll or be incapacitated. Slashes tend to incapacitate.

Crush adds maximum possible damage bonus (on top of regular rolled damage bonus). This is horrific when you are fighting someone with a +2D6 or greater damage modifier (like a large dark troll or a great troll). 

 

Slash sounds good, very much like RQ2. I really disliked the BGB replacing the RQ2 Slashing Effect with the Bleeding effect, losing 1 HP per round. It just seemed like the RQ2 version of Slashing was much more enjoyable for our troupe.

The Crush effect you described also sounds like the RQ2 version as well, which was good, However I remember if a character had no Damage Bonus then it was a real let-down.

The equivalent from RQ6, the Bashing Effect, worked well by increasing the Damage Bonus by one step, so that at least something occurred for characters with no permanent Damage Bonus (ie they received a +1D4 damage). I know that RQ6 is not an influence, but I do think it may have done blunt weapon effects a bit better than RQ2. In RQ2 I remember several occasions of player-characters with maces rolling special successes, and receiving no additional benefit if they weren't stronger than the average person. It may be gamist, but it did take a bit of fun out of it

Yep those Uz Great Trolls sure did scare my player-characters a fair bit with their mauls 

The BGB also had an Entangling Effect. It seemed to work well, and obviously something like that may need to be in the new version of RQ as well, as it was useful with nets, whips, etc

Edited September 26, 2016 by Mankcam

[Jeff]

If you don't have a damage bonus, then crushing weapons are a bit disappointing. The solution is to either use Strength or use a different weapon. That being said, even with a 1D4 damage modifier, a light mace will do the same average damage on a special than a short spear or short sword. A light mace will do 1D6+2+1D4+4 on a special or 12 points on average. A short sword or short spear will do 2D6+2+1D4 or 11 to 12 points on average. But once you start getting higher damage modifiers, Crush really becomes dangerous.  That average Dark Troll does 1D8+2+1D6+6 on a Crush (10 to 22 points damage), but that average Great Troll does 2D8+2D6+12 (16 to 40 points damage). Yowsers! Even if I parry with my medium shield (12 points) and I have bronze armor (6 points), I still can get instantly splattered.

On the other hand, it makes me think Orlanth Adventurous and Babeester Gor are the best cults for defending against Great Trolls and Giants. 

[Zit]

Did you include the special effects of nets (CoT) or whips (as found in the Big Rubble with the Elf-bandit encounter) ?

[Mankcam]

Its not much fun if someone rolls a special success and gets no damage effect at all. It kind of takes the 'special' out of the Special Success. For example if an weak academic sage character has a staff or small cudgel, then they should still get some effect if they roll a Special Success with it, even they aren't combat-orientated characters.

I think I may likely return to that old house rule that if a character has no DB, then a Crush Effect grants them a DB of 1D4. If they have a DB, then the DB is doubled. 

But as an aside, I do like how Jeff is still sticking to the skeleton of RQ2 as a foundation. Especially in regards to keeping the stat block, it makes all the RQ Classic reprints so much more useful if they can be used with both versions of RQ published by Chaosium.

Edited September 26, 2016 by Mankcam

[DreadDomain]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

The weapon damage of a special (or critical) success depends on the type of weapon. We all know the good old Impale. Twice normal damage plus the weapon gets stuck (which can cause continued damage, but also means the attacker must pull out the weapon or lose its use). Impales tend to kill.

Slash also does twice normal damage. If the hit points in the location equal or are surpassed by the slashing damage, the target must make a roll or be incapacitated. Slashes tend to incapacitate.

Crush adds maximum possible damage bonus (on top of regular rolled damage bonus). This is horrific when you are fighting someone with a +2D6 or greater damage modifier (like a large dark troll or a great troll). 

 

Sounds pretty good! I know I might push it but is there any chance to have gruesome and highly descriptive critical hit tables per damage categories. Not that they are absolutely required but they are so much fun!

[styopa]

7 hours ago, Jeff said:

If you don't have a damage bonus, then crushing weapons are a bit disappointing. The solution is to either use Strength or use a different weapon. That being said, even with a 1D4 damage modifier, a light mace will do the same average damage on a special than a short spear or short sword. A light mace will do 1D6+2+1D4+4 on a special or 12 points on average. A short sword or short spear will do 2D6+2+1D4 or 11 to 12 points on average. But once you start getting higher damage modifiers, Crush really becomes dangerous.  That average Dark Troll does 1D8+2+1D6+6 on a Crush (10 to 22 points damage), but that average Great Troll does 2D8+2D6+12 (16 to 40 points damage). Yowsers! Even if I parry with my medium shield (12 points) and I have bronze armor (6 points), I still can get instantly splattered.

On the other hand, it makes me think Orlanth Adventurous and Babeester Gor are the best cults for defending against Great Trolls and Giants. 

I like the use of the special effects to still differentiate the 'flavors' of piercing/cutting/bashing weapons, without burying every swing in a host of special rules.  It's a good compromise.

[Mugen]

Sounds like a simple and effective rule. I like it.

9 hours ago, Mankcam said:

I cannot remember if Stormbringer or Magic World had these effects, as I have mainly followed the other lines of BRP (Given that SB/MW use a Major Wound table instead of rolling Hit Locations, I suspect weapon effects may have been different, or perhaps not included).

As far as I remember, StormBringer 1 does double damage, whatever weapon you use.

9 hours ago, Mankcam said:

For some reason I recollect RQ3 only having the Impaling effect, I may be wrong.

You're right. Impaling weapons do double damage, but special results have no impact on non-impaling weapons.

Edited September 26, 2016 by Mugen

[styopa]

1 hour ago, Mugen said:

You're right. Impaling weapons do double damage, but special results have no impact on non-impaling weapons.

Curiously, this was one point where RQ3 went BACKWARDS from RQ2, which did have (optional) rules for bash and slash.

IIRC AHs RQ3 (I don't have the rules handy) did say specials on bashing weapons did special knockback, because I always thought that was a pretty bad rule: it was largely meaningless in most situations, astonishingly overpowered in others.

The only electronic copy I have of RQ3 is GWs one, and I don't see anything about special knockback in that, so not sure if I'm remembering wrong, or simply not finding it...

[Mugen]

1 hour ago, styopa said:

Curiously, this was one point where RQ3 went BACKWARDS from RQ2, which did have (optional) rules for bash and slash.

IIRC AHs RQ3 (I don't have the rules handy) did say specials on bashing weapons did special knockback, because I always thought that was a pretty bad rule: it was largely meaningless in most situations, astonishingly overpowered in others.

The only electronic copy I have of RQ3 is GWs one, and I don't see anything about special knockback in that, so not sure if I'm remembering wrong, or simply not finding it...

French edition says special knockback happens for slashing and bashing weapons (it's the last sub-section in the "Special attacks" section) I never used knockback, so I didn't remember the rule.

As for myself, I never had a problem with empaling weapons doing more damage on a special attack, as non-impaling weapons often had higher base damage.

[MJ Sadique]

2 hours ago, styopa said:

Curiously, this was one point where RQ3 went BACKWARDS from RQ2, which did have (optional) rules for bash and slash.

IIRC AHs RQ3 (I don't have the rules handy) did say specials on bashing weapons did special knockback, because I always thought that was a pretty bad rule: it was largely meaningless in most situations, astonishingly overpowered in others.

The only electronic copy I have of RQ3 is GWs one, and I don't see anything about special knockback in that, so not sure if I'm remembering wrong, or simply not finding it...

oh Styopa... you're really saddening me... don't remeber our chit-chat in Rapier thread : Just copy-past for you
 

Quote

 

I only speak about RQ3 (Advanced Runequest for the first naming) for armor point and specials effects.
-Weapons basic effects : Slashing weapons cuts (wooo), Thrusting weapons can get stuck in some shields, Blunt weapon ignore half of flexible armor.
-Weapons specials effects : Slashing weapon give bleeding (regular blood, PV lose), Thrusting weapon give impaling (Damage x2), Blunt Weapon give Knockback (hellish mecanism).

Knockback, RQ3 French version : Depanding of quality of the attack if damage greater than SIZ+FOR / SIZ / 0 then target flew a meter away by damage point and IF(2) he is stopped by something he get 1D6 damage knockback for every 5 meter he should have done or the half IF(3) the something is soft like another human who also get the half damage !

 

I love rq3 mechanic but bleeding was not so usefull (just an excuse to flight away) and knockback to finish an enemy ( just an excuse to achive an enemy). As master, I only bother to use them 1D6 times IN 20 YEARS OF RUNEQUEST-ING 3.
-Impaling : Always perfect. No need to change anything.
-Slashing : Incapacitate, great idea but : Is it Damage vs Hit points, no matter the armor ? or something else ?
-Crushing : Simpler, faster.... it sound great, a great "Crushing Noise" if I may !!!

XD

[styopa]

Yeah, honestly, I use the AH RQ3 rules and I don't recall *anything* about slashing = bleeding, nor honestly that there was a RAW about blunt ignoring half of flexible armor.  I agree with it, but I don't remember it in AH RQ3 RAW. 

Like you and pretty much everyone, I think we all agree that impaling is a pretty well-written mechanic - my only other amendment to it was that in RQ3 you had different hitloc tables for missile and melee, I'd use the 'missile' one for thrusting weapons too.

[Runeblogger]

I don't like the effect of a special success with a blunt weapon, because it makes maces a poor choice for some warriors, while spears and swords are OK for everyone. That doesn't make much sense. IMO, crushing weapons should be good for any warrior, not only for the very strong.

If impaling and slashing weapons do double damage plus an additional effect, crushing weapons ought to do double damage too, plus an additional effect. For example, stunning the target or bypassing half the points of every kind of armour.

I also don't like that slashing weapons incapacitate the enemy like that. It's far too powerful an effect in my opinion, and it makes slashing weapons far superior to the other types as they stand. I think swords and axes are already popular choices among players, and this particular effect will make them even more popular, to the point where very few players will choose another type of weapon for their characters.

But maybe it's just me.  :-)   Besides, I can't come up with a good special effect with a slashing weapon that's not unbalancing or tiresome to play with.

 

 

[SDLeary]

5 hours ago, styopa said:

Yeah, honestly, I use the AH RQ3 rules and I don't recall *anything* about slashing = bleeding, ...

It wasn't. There was no "slash" in RQ3 that I recall or that I can seem to find at the moment. All swords slashed... that was there normal mode of damage; some also impaled. 

Bleeding in RQ3 occurred when damage to Chest, Abdomen, or Head exceeded the HP value in those locations, or in Limbs if double HP value was exceeded. 

5 hours ago, styopa said:

nor honestly that there was a RAW about blunt ignoring half of flexible armor.  I agree with it, but I don't remember it in AH RQ3 RAW. 

This was official errata. Deluxe Edition, p.278:

Quote

BLUNT WEAPONS VS. SOFT ARMOR

  When a flail, mace, or maul is used against soft armor, the value of the armor protection is halved (round fractions up). Soft armor overlapped with hard armor counts as hard armor.

SDLeary

Edited September 27, 2016 by SDLeary
grammer

[Mankcam]

I kinda like that the two main types of Weapon Effects are Slashing and Crushing. Slashing doing double Damage Dice and Crushing doing double Damage Bonus, it makes it easy to remember.

However for the sake of fairness I would have to rule that Crush grants a 1D4 DB in the advent of a character not having any natural Damage Bonus.

Impaling is a good effect. It is more powerful, but comes at the cost that the attacker may not be able to retrieve the weapon for subsequent attacks, so that's the trade-off.

I do hope the BGB Entangling effect is included, so nets, whips etc can have their effects. It just seems logical that this effect should be ported across to CRQ4.

As an aside, I do like the success levels in CoC 7E and will find it difficult without them in a BRP game now. The extra level, the Hard Sucess (equal to half skill % score) just helps define opposed rolls etc

I am considering using them in RQ if they are not in the new version. One of the areas I am toying with is Weapon Effects. I am considering that a Hard Success grants the possibility of a Weapon Effect, although it can be resisted by the opponent making a toughness roll (CON x5%).

The Special Success would still remain as it would mean the Weapon Effect is automatically inflicted, as per current rules.

I think it would make each weapon type feel different if there was a greater chance of these effects, which is a strength in RQ6/Mythras. Combat may end up being quicker in some cases. 

I'm just wondering if this would be a viable house rule, or if it is an unnecessary complication?

Edited September 27, 2016 by Mankcam

[jux]

On 9/26/2016 at 9:04 AM, Jeff said:

Twice normal damage plus the weapon gets stuck (which can cause continued damage, but also means the attacker must pull out the weapon or lose its use).

Does it really? If you stab with knife, it gets stuck? Come on.

[Atgxtg]

On 9/26/2016 at 3:04 AM, Jeff said:

We all know the good old Impale. Twice normal damage plus the weapon gets stuck (which can cause continued damage, but also means the attacker must pull out the weapon or lose its use).

That's not "the good old impale" that's the new impale from RQ3. The RQ2 impale was max damage plus rolled, which was quite a bit (about half again) nastier. 

So does that mean the new RQ will use RQ3 impale rules?

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, jux said:

Does it really? If you stab with knife, it gets stuck? Come on.

Yes it does. I actually remember at least two cases back in my prosecuting attorney days where a knife got stuck in its victim (and didn't kill the victim). One involved a sheriff's department response to a domestic violence case. The abusive husband/boyfriend stabbed the deputy in the shoulder while the deputy was trying to help the victim escape. The deputy turned (and the knife stayed stuck in his shoulder) and he shot his attacker dead. The other case involved a victim who got stabbed with a knife and ran away with a knife stuck in his belly.

[Atgxtg]

On 9/26/2016 at 0:43 PM, styopa said:

Curiously, this was one point where RQ3 went BACKWARDS from RQ2, which did have (optional) rules for bash and slash.

IIRC AHs RQ3 (I don't have the rules handy) did say specials on bashing weapons did special knockback, because I always thought that was a pretty bad rule: it was largely meaningless in most situations, astonishingly overpowered in others.

The only electronic copy I have of RQ3 is GWs one, and I don't see anything about special knockback in that, so not sure if I'm remembering wrong, or simply not finding it...

It's in the GW edition. I found it on  page 34, third column, under the heading Special Knockback (do I get a Search check?). It's also in Book 1 of the AH edition, page 56.  It also incorporated slashing weapons. The rule is as follows:

 

Special Knockback

When smashing or slashing weapons such as broadswords or maces score a special success, the target is knocked back one meter for every 5 points of rolled damage (as opposed to damage from normal hits which only use the damage in excess of SIZ.) If the target's player does not make a successful DEX X5 roll for his character, the character will also fall down. Use the standard knockback rules to determine further injury by incidental collision with intervening obstacles. 

 

 

 

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, jux said:

Does it really? If you stab with knife, it gets stuck? Come on.

It might get stuck, it's not automatic. The weapon has to score an impale (so not just any stab will do). The character could avoid the weapon getting stuck if he could roll twice his chance for an impale. If the impale is parried by a shield then the shield is impaled instead. 

The idea here is that if you impale some one with a knife you probably have it stuck at least 6 inches (15cm) deep. So think if it as trying to pull out a grounded tent peg. 

[jongjom]

9 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

The idea here is that if you impale some one with a knife you probably have it stuck at least 6 inches (15cm) deep. So think if it as trying to pull out a grounded tent peg. 

I would probably steer clear of assigning a depth to which a knife gets stuck. Too many variables that would influence if something gets stuck or not, least not the type of knife itself.

Edited September 28, 2016 by jongjom

[Atgxtg]

2 minutes ago, jongjom said:

I would probably steer clear of assigning a depth to which a knife gets stuck. Too many variables that would influence if something gets stuck or not, least not the type of knife itself.

I agree. I was  trying to give a good visual on just how nasty a hit an impale is supposed to be. The rule was inspired more from accounts of battles with spears running people right through.

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

I agree. I was  trying to give a good visual on just how nasty a hit an impale is supposed to be. The rule was inspired more from accounts of battles with spears running people right through.

Also, armor:  if you've "impaled" through armor or tough hide, the weapon is likely wedged in against some pretty tough material...

[jux]

I agree that for the weapon to get stuck - it is logical for spear and it takes extra effort to pull it out. But stabbing with knife, it's like cutting orange. There is no effort pulling it out.