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Kesendeja    10

I was wondering if anyone knows if BRP would continue to have sourcebooks put out for it? Or are they going to come out a new version more in line with the CoC 7e ruleset?

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g33k    738

Yes, more are coming...

I believe the current plan is to update their internal reference-standard of "what is BRP" for various authors writing BRP books. The first two out the door will be the next RQ and "Mythic Iceland" 2e (both are very-far-advanced, as projects; I am unclear which is likely to hit the market first); there have also been mentions/rumors of a "Noir Detective" book in early stages.  They will keep making BRP books after those.

I am unclear on how much of a "final" standard this BRP-internal will be... is it "done" now, with 2 volumes late in the pipeline?  Do they plan to keep tweaking, continuously/forever, as feedback comes to them?  Is it even an "it," a document?  Or is it a seething inchoate morass of rule-modules and ideas and depraved inspirations, with each volume published drawing forth slightly different elements, depending on the haruspicy performed by each author after they do the Blood Ritual?

Has this issue been decided (or even explicitly addressed) internally?  But it's internal to Chaosium, so it doesn't actually need any nice "for public delivery" decision/statement:  "This is an internal issue for Chaosium, not a public/customer issue" is all they need say.

They do not currently have a plan to produce a new standalone "BRP" volume of this new(ish) core ruleset; I hope they eventually do come out with one... but I've stopped holding my breath...

 

Edited by g33k
n.b. the above is my understanding from many posts & threads here & elsewhere across the past year or more; I many have missed something critical, invalidating it all...
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colinabrett    135
23 hours ago, g33k said:

Is it even an "it," a document?  Or is it a seething inchoate morass of rule-modules and ideas and depraved inspirations, with each volume published drawing forth slightly different elements, depending on the haruspicy performed by each author after they do the Blood Ritual?

The BRP Necronomicon, perhaps :lol:

Colin

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g33k    738
2 hours ago, colinabrett said:

The BRP Necronomicon, perhaps :lol:

All forum threads citing BRP henceforth to be tagged "necro" ... 

And all of us who love BRP are necrophiliacs?

And Chaosium who sells it to us are...

...uhhhh...

 ... y'know, I think this may not be the wisest digression I've ever pursued ...

 

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With the announcement that the new Runequest will be [retty much exclusively Glorantha, I imagine that even with it out of print the BGB will be the standard for a while as far as official BRP material.

Makes me wonder whether the BGB will live on as a POD book (assuming Chaosium hasn't kept any copies).

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MOB    1,821

 

2 hours ago, Michael Hopcroft said:

With the announcement that the new Runequest will be [retty much exclusively Glorantha, I imagine that even with it out of print the BGB will be the standard for a while as far as official BRP material.

Makes me wonder whether the BGB will live on as a POD book (assuming Chaosium hasn't kept any copies).

BGB is still available in print (softcover): http://www.chaosium.com/basic-roleplaying-softcover/ 

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Atgxtg    344

I figure BRPs fate is dependent upon how the new RQ does. If RQ does really well,then BRP will probably not see much more support. Not that it really needs any- it's mostly a toolkit. If the new RQ doesn't do so good, then Chaosium might default back to BRP, as it has been somewhat successful.

But it's also possible that if the new RQ does well, Chaosium might go through something of a renaissance, and keep supporting BRP and expanding into new lines, much like they did in the early 80s. I doubt it will happen that way, but it could.   

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Chaot    263
41 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

But it's also possible that if the new RQ does well, Chaosium might go through something of a renaissance, and keep supporting BRP and expanding into new lines, much like they did in the early 80s. I doubt it will happen that way, but it could.   

This would be ideal.

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g33k    738

I don't think RQG will demonstrate a market for standalone BRP:  as witness HQ/GtG/13G, there is a REALLY notable Gloranthaphile market.

If MythicIceland2e, and that "NoirDetective" volume do well, and more people start clamoring for BRPE, then I think Chaosium isn't entirely stupid and will sell customers what they want.  But I don't think a few grognards (such as we represent here) is enough of a customer base. I think Chaosium wants to see more/new players coming to those books and wanting BRP.  Buzz on BigPurple & EnWorld & Reddit &c.  Roll20 & FG games.  Etc...

Mythras seems to be taking over as the default d100 core:  M-Space, Classic Fantasy, & AfterTheVampireWars have all ported from BRP to Mythras (and the first two, already out, seem to be doing very well there!).

Edited by g33k
punctuation
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Atgxtg    344
14 hours ago, g33k said:

Mythras seems to be taking over as the default d100 core:  M-Space, Classic Fantasy, & AfterTheVampireWars have all ported from BRP to Mythras (and the first two, already out, seem to be doing very well there!).

I think that is mostly due to the licensing terms. You have to be willing to make an investment if you want to make an official BRP product. 

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Jeff    1,705
17 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

I figure BRPs fate is dependent upon how the new RQ does. If RQ does really well,then BRP will probably not see much more support. Not that it really needs any- it's mostly a toolkit. If the new RQ doesn't do so good, then Chaosium might default back to BRP, as it has been somewhat successful.

But it's also possible that if the new RQ does well, Chaosium might go through something of a renaissance, and keep supporting BRP and expanding into new lines, much like they did in the early 80s. I doubt it will happen that way, but it could.   

I think you and I use the term BRP differently. We view Call of Cthulhu and RuneQuest as both being games that use the BRP engine. We want to make sure that the variations of that engine are well-supported with scenarios and supplements, and that the various settings are fundamentally interesting to enough people to support that investment. 

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Atgxtg    344
26 minutes ago, Jeff said:

I think you and I use the term BRP differently. We view Call of Cthulhu and RuneQuest as both being games that use the BRP engine. We want to make sure that the variations of that engine are well-supported with scenarios and supplements, and that the various settings are fundamentally interesting to enough people to support that investment. 

Yeah. In this case I was referring to the Big Gold Book as BRP, not the "BRP family" of RPGs,  and the chances of seeing more products specifically written for that. That's what I think the original poster was referring to. 

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g33k    738
4 minutes ago, Jeff said:

I think you and I use the term BRP differently. We view Call of Cthulhu and RuneQuest as both being games that use the BRP engine. We want to make sure that the variations of that engine are well-supported with scenarios and supplements, and that the various settings are fundamentally interesting to enough people to support that investment. 

From my POV, CoC7's differences (use of d% for STR/INT/etc; Bonus/Penalty dice; &c )  render it into a "BRP Variant" rather than using the core BRP engine.  Not NEARLY so much a variant as KAP, however!  Yes, it's still clearly a member of the BTP family.  But I guess you guys get to define what "BRP" is...

Personally, I'm still rooting for a new book (or set of books) in the spirit of the daVinci-cover books.  "BRP Essentials" was the name bandied around.  I wouldn't mind a 2-3 volume set of 128pp-192pp books, replacing the BGB -- Essentials+Extended, or something?  But the resource for people who like the BRP engine but want their own setting rather than one of those published by Chaosium or other d100-family publishers.

Yes, I know this falls into the "No current plans to publish such a book" category.  I'm still rooting for it... like some poor swine hunting truffles in the detritus and dropings on the dank and foetid floor of the Internet... frantically pursuing every scent...

 

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Sean_RDP    164
19 minutes ago, Jeff said:

I think you and I use the term BRP differently. We view Call of Cthulhu and RuneQuest as both being games that use the BRP engine. We want to make sure that the variations of that engine are well-supported with scenarios and supplements, and that the various settings are fundamentally interesting to enough people to support that investment. 

Lore is the key. CoC, RQ, Stormbringer all have a deep lore that players can immerse themselves into. I feel like the early days of BRP / d100 trained us to link that idea in our heads. So I think that is what a d100 audience looks for in their BRP family of games.  However, there is a significant group of players that just take the bare bones BRP and morph it into whatever Lore they are  using to run their games. I suspect that basic BRP no setting attached system will never go away, but in itself does not require more than say a single book or two for players to work with. 

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Jeff    1,705

Here's the thing - rules without a setting that supports the rules (plus a flow of material to support gaming in that setting) don't sell nearly as well as supported settings. And there's no reason to import Glorantha's magic system to fantasy Earth (for example) or to an occult conspiracy game.  Elements of RuneQuest's combat are simply irrelevant in a game where firearms are the primary combat weapon. In our opinion, rules should be tailored to the setting - and the setting should be supported with background, scenarios, and the like.

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g33k    738
38 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Here's the thing - rules without a setting that supports the rules (plus a flow of material to support gaming in that setting) don't sell nearly as well as supported settings. And there's no reason to import Glorantha's magic system to fantasy Earth (for example) or to an occult conspiracy game.  Elements of RuneQuest's combat are simply irrelevant in a game where firearms are the primary combat weapon. In our opinion, rules should be tailored to the setting - and the setting should be supported with background, scenarios, and the like.

<grumbles>  Ya know, I can't argue with a single one of the points along this track... but I sure don't like the train station where you arrived!

But the bottom line is... well, it's the bottom line.  You say "rules without a setting ... don't sell nearly as well as supported settings" and after all you guys are running a business not a charity to support BRP Grognards.

<Can ye spare a clack or two, gubner?  Fer ol' times sake?  Learnt me my Runequest back in 1980, I did... >

I absolutely agree that Gloranthan magic isn't suited for general RPG use, and RQ combat works MUCH better for melee weapons than for firearms.

But there really *IS* a market for the generic-toobox-suite game books.  GURPS, HERO, etc...  I'm hoping that, eventually, Chaosium's internal reference-standard documentation & rules will be sufficiently-well-developed that actually pulling them out to a standalone "nuBGB" will be a viable project.

Eventually.

 

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g33k    738
2 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

I think that is mostly due to the licensing terms. You have to be willing to make an investment if you want to make an official BRP product. 

I don't think that's it; or at least not entirely.  Neither DesignMechanism nor Chaosium has a copyright on their rulesets, after all:  game-mechanics cannot be (c)'ed; only the specific language written in the rulebooks.

Anyone who wants to, can write a game that is 100% mechanically-identical with either RQ2 or RQ6, and (presuming they copy none of the (c) language from their sincerely-flattered (and annoyed) target) publish it without any credit or acknowedgement and without those companies being able to stop them.

So "licensing" alone doesn't seem a sufficient explanation -- really, no license is needed for a standalone game, only to slap on (tm)'ed logos and the like.

The fact that "BRP Starships" became "BRP Space" is a tribute to Clarence's dedication & skill.  "Classic Fantasy" is another product of deep passion and skilled craftsmanship.  The fact that BOTH of them have become Mythras products is... interesting.  Adding Snead's "After the Vampire Wars" to that transition (and he's a longtime writer for multiple systems) makes it begin to look like a noteworthy pattern...

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Jeff    1,705
6 minutes ago, g33k said:

I don't think that's it; or at least not entirely.  Neither DesignMechanism nor Chaosium has a copyright on their rulesets, after all:  game-mechanics cannot be (c)'ed; only the specific language written in the rulebooks.

Anyone who wants to, can write a game that is 100% mechanically-identical with either RQ2 or RQ6, and (presuming they copy none of the (c) language from their sincerely-flattered (and annoyed) target) publish it without any credit or acknowedgement and without those companies being able to stop them.

So "licensing" alone doesn't seem a sufficient explanation -- really, no license is needed for a standalone game, only to slap on (tm)'ed logos and the like.

The fact that "BRP Starships" became "BRP Space" is a tribute to Clarence's dedication & skill.  "Classic Fantasy" is another product of deep passion and skilled craftsmanship.  The fact that BOTH of them have become Mythras products is... interesting.  Adding Snead's "After the Vampire Wars" to that transition (and he's a longtime writer for multiple systems) makes it begin to look like a noteworthy pattern...

As a legal matter, that is likely not actually right, and a lot of commonly assumed practices probably would not hold up to a legal challenge. However, the stakes are usually too low to afford the expenses involved. 

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g33k    738
1 hour ago, Jeff said:

As a legal matter, that is likely not actually right, and a lot of commonly assumed practices probably would not hold up to a legal challenge. However, the stakes are usually too low to afford the expenses involved. 

Well, you're the professional. But https://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.pdf  says:

Quote

Copyright does not protect the idea for a game ... or the method or methods for playing it. Nor does copyright protect any idea, system, method, device... involved in ...playing a game. 

As you note, there probably isn't enough money it it for the legal issue to be pressed until all recourse is exhausted...

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colinabrett    135
18 hours ago, g33k said:

Mythras seems to be taking over as the default d100 core:  M-Space, Classic Fantasy, & AfterTheVampireWars have all ported from BRP to Mythras (and the first two, already out, seem to be doing very well there!).

And, despite the success of M-Space (with which I was tangentially involved), this is why I won't be making the jump to Mythras. <flameproof underware on> It just ain't BRP </flameproof underware off>.

Colin

Flames to /dev/null , please.

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colinabrett    135
2 hours ago, g33k said:

But there really *IS* a market for the generic-toobox-suite game books.  GURPS, HERO, etc...  I'm hoping that, eventually, Chaosium's internal reference-standard documentation & rules will be sufficiently-well-developed that actually pulling them out to a standalone "nuBGB" will be a viable project.

Eventually.

 

This is spot on!

Colin

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colinabrett    135
3 hours ago, ReignDragonSMH said:

... However, there is a significant group of players that just take the bare bones BRP and morph it into whatever Lore they are  using to run their games. I suspect that basic BRP no setting attached system will never go away, but in itself does not require more than say a single book or two for players to work with. 

So we can create our own settings, or derive them from other settings (Skyrim, Fallout and Spelljammer spring to mind). With the BGB (or whatever might follow it), we can pick and choose those rules which simulate the setting, not try to hack CoC or RQG to fit our own campaign worlds.

Colin

Kudos to this post; flames to /dev/null :-)

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Sean_RDP    164
21 minutes ago, g33k said:

Well, you're the professional. But https://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.pdf  says:

As you note, there probably isn't enough money it it for the legal issue to be pressed until all recourse is exhausted...

Well more than just the legal issues, are the issues of respect. Maybe that is an old fashioned notion, I dunno, but as a game designer who is trying to do his own thing if I find something in Skaerune' that smells too much like I am just copying another game (as opposed to using the OGL the way it was meant), then I rip it out and find a different solution. In some ways I feel that it makes my designs better, more unique, or whatever language you choose to describe. The hard work of these people has inspired me and it would be ill service as a designer to just copy/paste or rely to heavily on the letter of the law so I have a clear conscience violating the spirit. But in the end all I can do is the best I can do in that regard. 

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Jeff    1,705
25 minutes ago, g33k said:

Well, you're the professional. But https://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.pdf  says:

As you note, there probably isn't enough money it it for the legal issue to be pressed until all recourse is exhausted...

Copyright doesn't protect ideas or method of playing it. But it is an open question what that means in the context of an RPG rules system. 

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Atgxtg    344
3 hours ago, g33k said:

I don't think that's it; or at least not entirely.  Neither DesignMechanism nor Chaosium has a copyright on their rulesets, after all:  game-mechanics cannot be (c)'ed; only the specific language written in the rulebooks.

Anyone who wants to, can write a game that is 100% mechanically-identical with either RQ2 or RQ6, and (presuming they copy none of the (c) language from their sincerely-flattered (and annoyed) target) publish it without any credit or acknowedgement and without those companies being able to stop them.

So "licensing" alone doesn't seem a sufficient explanation -- really, no license is needed for a standalone game, only to slap on (tm)'ed logos and the like.

The fact that "BRP Starships" became "BRP Space" is a tribute to Clarence's dedication & skill.  "Classic Fantasy" is another product of deep passion and skilled craftsmanship.  The fact that BOTH of them have become Mythras products is... interesting.  Adding Snead's "After the Vampire Wars" to that transition (and he's a longtime writer for multiple systems) makes it begin to look like a noteworthy pattern...

Now there certainly are other reasons why someone might change a supplement to support a different RPG, but licensing is a sufficient explanation. It is precisely why BRP Space became "SPACE". In order for it to have remained BRP Space would have required Clarance to spend a tidy sum of cash printing up enough copies to send to Chasoium (per their terms). That was the major was the reason why Clarance changed game systems. I know, I had a small hand in some of the spaceship design stuff in BRP Spaceships. He didn't switch from BRP because he preferred the rules to Mythras, but because to keep it as a BRP supplement would have required him to print up and send Chaosium a certain number of copies that they could sell. 

Sure someone can write an RPG that is 100% identical to another RPG, but they can't claim that it is a supplement for that game, get it promoted with that game's stuff and so on. It would have take some time effort and a few more pages to flesh out SPACE enough to be a stand alone game. It was one of the options open to Clarance at the time (and the one I was hoping for). But it was a lot easier and quickly to simple adapt the existing material to another ruleset-especially if it was one similar to BRP.

 

 

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