Guide to Glorantha Group Read Week 2 - Praxian

[scott-martin]

16 minutes ago, Joerg said:

There is a difference between the Men-and-a-Half and the Doraddi - the absence of plant lineages. This may have to do with the decline of Ernalda, or it may be an indication that they left before Dorad experienced death.

They don't have grain goddesses down there so archaic lineage-defining interactions with the local "likita" might have been extremely different, now that you mention it. Faranar is not Nyanka, etc.

EDIT FOR PRAX If the Genert and Pamalt systems were once congruent on this point I would not be surprised if the "Genertelan Nyanka" wasn't one of the parts that died on the northern side of the land bridge, forcing them to adopt new reproductive family structures or die out.

Edited July 8, 2017 by scott-martin

[Joerg]

28 minutes ago, metcalph said:

 

I apologize for carrying stuff relating to the Doraddi section and to next week's reading here in the Praxian thread, but this is about the Praxian immigrants, their probable origin, and their possible route.

28 minutes ago, metcalph said:

No.  Tishamto lay east of the Nargan.  

Sure. Rather close to the Nargan Sea. Basically, it is the place where the Agimori spread from. I would have understood your objection if their lands had been west of the Nargan Sea.

Mormortishamto lies east of the northern tip of the Nargan (map p.586), and roughly on the border of Pamalt's Fields in the God Learner maps. About between Jolar and Kothar.

The Doraddi spread from here northward, reached the Fensi mountains, and crossed them in the gap that did not lead into dense yellow elf jungle.

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There's another urban civilization - Bodenen ma Tama "the ruins of the sun"  in Kothar p595 which is practically unknown to the Doraddi of Jolar.

Is it an urban civilization? I see evidence for volcanic hill forts, not unlike the Manimati ones, but this appears to be some survival form of settlement removed from the early urban civilization of Tishamto.

 

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The Zuama culture lay north of the Fensi would have been even more out of sight, out of mind to the Doraddi.  

Sure - I don't expect the Doraddi of Jolar, Tarien or Kothar to know about them.

However, I do expect Doraddi-descended folk in the -ofeys and in Laskal. The Gargandites have no early myths, only conquest myths, whereas the Banamban folk appear to be related to the Agimori origin story as related by the Doraddi (from all over Tarien, Jolar and Kothar, not limited to the speakers of Doraddic).

 

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Secondly the Artmali did conquer Tishamto whereupon it was destroyed by Pamalt in the Firefall.  It doesn't fit the nature of the "We Tried That Already" in which the flaw is apparent as soon as they tried that.

True, the other stuff is more recent.

 

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The first migration of the Mountain Peoples is a God Learner fiction unworthy of attention.  

It is one reflected by a couple of Outer World realities.

 

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The relevant passage on Borderlands and Beyond does make it clear that it was a migration to fight chaos which suggests a large horde rather than successive waves.  

This is the Godtime. Pinning down exact dates becomes slippery.

Still, if you want to attempt that, and put any more faith into the god learner maps geography than in their annotation of those maps, I find it safe to assume that the Agimori who followed Baba Ulodr walked all the way, and didn't cross any seas. They will have crossed rivers, including Sshorg, but that puts their crossing of the Sshorg Sea back to the Late Golden Age. Which makes their stated mission to fight Chaos a bit problematic, I admit.

But let's break it down into the story of the trek from their home cities at Pamalt's Fields through Vithela past Fethlon into the Wastes.

Their first chaos foes would have to be found in Vithela, which has a rich background of antigods with chaotic ties emerging in waves.

Let's assume that Baba Ulodra led the Men-and-a-Half against forces of e.g. Keltari, or at least on the long march getting there. Revealed Mythologies tells us only about the deeds of the mystics in overcoming the forces of the adpara. And to the Vithelans, this Agimori trek would have looked like any other Adpara invasion.

The Agimori passed through Abzered and Sechkaul until they reached Genert's Garden - possibly only just coinciding with Earthfall, or following it, taking up a new Chaos to chase after.

 

I can see how you take their route through Loral - if they started in Laskal. I don't think that that was their starting point, though.

 

There is no evidence or even hint whatsoever for Thinobutans to follow Baba Ulodr into the north and east. There is one group of Thinobutan descended folk who do use Lodril-like magic, the Kimotans. None of the others show even the slightest affinity.

 

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The Pithdarans also came in a single migration for what it's worth.,

From Jolar, if I remember our discussion about Doraddi boats correctly. And Hunralki is explicitely from Jolar, too. They did not include Men-and-a-Half. Which is fitting since there shouldn't be such a thing as a Man-and-a-Half sailor. (The example character in the River of Cradles campaign was controversial for his ties to Zola Fel...)

 

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The Gargandites are not descended from the Doraddi.  They are an Agimori nation who have their roots in Laskal.  

And the Agimori in Laskal immigrated from Jolar during the Artmali wars, as far as I can make out.

 

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The Doraddi have their roots in Kothar at the Dawn and expanded westwards.  Doraddi is not and should not be considered a synonym for Agimori.

Doraddics have their roots in Kothar at the Dawn. Doraddi encompass the mortal, normal sized offspring of the Agitorani, the people following the example of Dorad.

 

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Stylistically I would avoid throwing labels together.  The Fiwan are Hsunchen who live in Pamaltela so there's little point in referring to them as the Pamaltelan Fiwan Hsunchen.  

I wrote Fiwan Hsunchen because the term Fiwan isn't that well known. I thought about putting Hsunchen in brackets.

This is the same problem as differentiating between Doraddic-speaking folk of Kothar and the Doraddi as Agimori descended from the Agitorani.

I think we agree that there are three distinct groups of Hsunchen (if we use the Eastern type for the entirety of the beast human folk): the Hykimi of the western Greatwood, of Wareran race, the Fiwan of Pamaltela, and the Korgatsu Hsunchen of the East. The Great Serpent is called Hykim and/or Mikyh in western Genertela, Korgatsu in the Shan Shan region, and Langamul in Pamaltela.

They all have the First Four Friends along with the Great Serpents, but their myths diverge e.g. with the Trickster (Bolongo in Pamaltela, Eurmal among the Hykimi) and other localized histories.

 

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Since we don't have Fiwan creation tales,

I think we do, sort of. Revealed Mythologies p.43 - the Fiwan are the 16 old people surrounding Langamul. The rest goes back to the universal Hsunchen stuff.

 

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I doubt that one can say that their creation stories have more similarities between them and the Masloi as opposed to the Doraddi.

The Thinobutan Soli and the Langamul of the Fiwan myth create their humans or human beasts without Pamalt, and without that First Drinker stuff.

 

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 If anything, I would expect the Veldt Fiwan to have similar creation tales to the Doraddi and the coastal Fiwan (Maslo and Laskalians) to have similar creation tales to the Thinobutans and Coastal Agimori).

I expect the Fiwan to have a common place of origin, similar to Hrelar Amali or the Korgatsu lair in the Shan Shan.

 

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The Teleono can have Men-and-a-Half ancestry quite easily ("in the old days, our forefathers were much taller and didn't need to drink water").  Just because they don't have those traits now does not mean that their ancestors never ever had them.

Yawn, and no thanks. We have no evidence of any other Men-and-a-Half reduced to standard Doraddi size.

I can see how you might want to start the trek from Laskal, but that's fairly unlikely, and far away from their homeplace.

 

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Again this is a leap too far.  The problem for the Men-and-a-half was to have children AND to retain their great height.  They weren't incapable of reproduction. I would go so far as to suggest that the Impala people are descendants of the Men-and-a-half (they have dark skins and fire rune kinship for example).  

So no Impala Founder, no Storm Bull ancestry? Nice to be back in Prax, but... really?

The Pygmy peoples of Genert's Garden and the Jungle are a bit of a mystery, but Men-minus-a-Half cannot be the answer.

 

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Their ancestors were men-and-a-half who decided to abandon completely their traditional discipline to have drink water and have lots of kids.  As a result they became very small.  Then came the Great Darkness after which they took up the survival covenant which obliterated the magical potency of their ancestral relations to the Men-and-a-half.

The Impala riders inhabit the dry parts of Prax, and have quite limited access to water. Wouldn't that invert their stature?

This theory has more holes than it has connecting threads, IMO.

 

[David Scott]

Can we please keep this to the discussion of the Praxian section in major cultures of the Guide. Some of you are reading ahead. You can make a new thread outside of this. 

Edited July 8, 2017 by David Scott

[Yelm's Light]

On 7/8/2017 at 6:32 AM, Joerg said:

Sure, mundane Gloranthans can do so. Mythically, sex was invented to re-integrate the original male who was separate from all fertility. I haven't seen any Gloranthan cultural equivalent for Ringworld's Ri-shatra.

Not to be the word police, but the Ringworld term for that ritual is rishathra.

[M Helsdon]

On ‎7‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 2:32 PM, Joerg said:

I haven't seen any Gloranthan cultural equivalent for Ringworld's Ri-shatra.

There's Xenoma, a six-breasted dark troll, who worked as a sacred prostitute at the Furthest Uleria Temple (rumor has it she's now at Casino Town).

 

Edited July 9, 2017 by M Helsdon

[Dogboy]

On 03/07/2017 at 9:36 PM, Akhôrahil said:

I had an issue with the weapons instead - they're very much "fantasy weapons". Both the axehead and the spearhead are huge! And the triple spikes at the back don't seem to serve any obvious purpose (a single spike is for armor-piercing).

Yeah, the heads are huge, but the axe is probably meant to be an Orlanthi design (ritual or otherwise) with the 3 spikes representing the Mastery Rune. Runes aren't always "painted on" (personally I think they are almost always integrated/hidden into artifacts, but i appreciate most people like to see simple rune shapes). In Glorantha Form often makes Function.

[David Scott]

Excellent @Dogboy what's the source of the photo?

[Akhôrahil]

Image googling says Persia, about 1000 BC.

[Dogboy]

23 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Excellent @Dogboy what's the source of the photo?

it's Persian, circa 1200-900BC, so Iron rather than Bronze Age, but Glorantha isn't the real world (hence all the Art Nouveau in the Guide  ).

There are plenty of examples of similar axe heads with 3,4 or 5 spikes from antiquity
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/539798705320066695/ but this one was from http://thebaidunshop.com/index.php/baidun/bycivilization/persian/bronze-persian-socketed-axe-head.html

I found it while researching the Orlanth figure for Gods War

Edited July 12, 2017 by Dogboy
fixed references

[Dogboy]

Not that I'd trying to have a go at you, Akhôrahil. Just that I know that Jeff Richard would have given extremely detailed art direction to Jeff Laubenstein.

Some would say too much

Edited July 12, 2017 by Dogboy
I can't leave well alone.

[M Helsdon]

7 hours ago, Dogboy said:

it's Persian, circa 1200-900BC, so Iron rather than Bronze Age, but Glorantha isn't the real world (hence all the Art Nouveau in the Guide  ).

An attempt to categorize axes in the Guide and other canonical sources:

 

Edited July 12, 2017 by M Helsdon

[JanPospisil]

Dammit, Dan replied to the "questionable" axe before my registration on here went through.

Well actually...  Nah, he's right, it's definitely based on Luristan axes.

I'll talk about the spear then: 

Yeah, it's pretty big. The thing is, there are spears from the bronze age that are that big.

Like this (copper) beauty from Kfar Monash, 66 cm long, that's almost a sword:

Now, it's really heavy (cca 2 kg, I think), so I don't think it was used for much combat. (even though someone really strong probably could've used it)

That said, large weapons would be also a display of wealth and power, showing off how much metal you have.

Like these spears of the Yayoi culture in Japan:

(note the measurements at the bottom of the drawing)

 

And lastly - big weapons also make sense if you're fighting unarmoured, or lightly armoured opponents. If you don't need to pierce armour, a wide/large blade makes a wider hole which bleeds a lot quicker, plus it increases your chance of hitting a major blood vessel.

Here's a video demonstration of that: 

 

[Dogboy]

I always liked the animal with blade in mouth types, a kind of piercing axe type

[Dogboy]

26 minutes ago, JanPospisil said:

Dammit, Dan replied to the "questionable" axe before my registration on here went through.

I've been waiting for a week to reply, but if I'd known, I'd have bowed to your greater knowledge.
Thanks for all the examples.

[Akhôrahil]

42 minutes ago, JanPospisil said:

Dammit, Dan replied to the "questionable" axe before my registration on here went through.

Well actually...  Nah, he's right, it's definitely based on Luristan axes.

I stand by my statement that the axehead is huge, and impractically so (this is almost always the case in Fantasy art, so it's not surprising - real-world battle axes (and also maces, and warhammers) tend to look puny to people used to seeing them in Fantasy art). 

That said, I have little problem with the idea that the warrior wanted the biggest, heaviest axe he could find for status reasons, and someone was only too happy to sell him something less functional, perhaps even a ritual or decorative axe never meant to be actually used in combat. In metal-poor Prax, this would be a serious case of conspicuous consumption. 

Edited July 12, 2017 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

58 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

An attempt to categorize axes in the Guide and other canonical sources:

Does the crescent-headed axe (D4) have a historical prototype? It doesn't look very practical.

(I question how useful the A2 labrys would be in combat, but hey, maybe under the right axe magic... And glad to see that A1 is for ceremonial purposes.) 

Edited July 12, 2017 by Akhôrahil

[Dogboy]

 

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

An attempt to categorize axes in the Guide and other canonical sources:

What, no socketed axes?

[JanPospisil]

I think the second from the left in group C is socketed.

[M Helsdon]

38 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Does the crescent-headed axe (D4) have a historical prototype? It doesn't look very practical.

It's derived from Jan's artwork, below. I believe similar sagaris are historical.

38 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

(I question how useful the A2 labrys would be in combat, but hey, maybe under the right axe magic... And glad to see that A1 is for ceremonial purposes.) 

There's a long history of double-headed axes being used, in warfare and forestry. They are mentioned in the Icelandic sagas and there are numerous examples in various collections.

In Glorantha, they are the favored weapons of Babeester Gor axe women.

 

14 minutes ago, Dogboy said:

 

What, no socketed axes?

There are two socketed axes in the picture if you mean a Celt, a wedge-shaped axe head with no shaft hole.

Edited July 12, 2017 by M Helsdon

[JanPospisil]

Yeah, that one was primarily supposed to look like bull horns, functionality was secondary. Though at the time I was thinking of the falx and maybe African throwing axes.

[Dogboy]

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

There are two socketed axes in the picture if you mean a Celt, a wedge-shaped axe head with no shaft hole.

What no Celt?
Better?
But my point is, are these no longer canon in your opinion?

Edited July 12, 2017 by Dogboy
less facetious

[M Helsdon]

3 hours ago, Dogboy said:

What no Celt?
Better?
But my point is, are these no longer canon in your opinion?

???? I don't understand your comment.

My illustration is not definitive, given the wide variety of axe designs. It does, however, attempt to show those featured in canonical illustrations, including a ceremonial and a war-ready labyrs as their cultic importance is well documented. Whilst many aspects of Glorantha are near-analogues to Bronze/Iron Age Earth, there are differences. So Jan's bull-headed sagaris and Babeester Gor double-headed axes will be present in-world. In terrestrial history, the labyrs was commonly associated with female divinities, and for some in Glorantha it has more than symbolic importance.

[Dogboy]

12 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

???? I don't understand your comment.

 

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was just trying to work out  what you consider canon (I don't consider art as canon. It generally is good for flavour, but changes from book to book), but this is getting off the topic, so just ignore it :D.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Dogboy
clarification on canon

[David Scott]

40 minutes ago, Dogboy said:

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was just trying to work out  what you consider canon (I don't consider art as canon. It generally is good for flavour, but changes from book to book), but this is getting off the topic, so just ignore it :D.

Please continue. This is a rare moment where we have two renowned artists of the Gloranthan world (@Dogboy and @JanPospisil) along with @M Helsdon who has done sterling work on the weaponry and armour of Glorantha and who @Jeff has been using as reference. Moving the thread would break it, contiuning is relevant as the Praxians don't make their own metal weapons an are reliant on foreign traders and what they can steal.

Edited July 13, 2017 by David Scott

[David Scott]

19 hours ago, Dogboy said:

Just that I know that Jeff Richard would have given extremely detailed art direction to Jeff Laubenstein.

I've added the original art direction that was in a separate thread to the top of this one in keeping with the week 3 descriptions. Not as detailed as you'd think :-)