Guide to Glorantha Group Read Week 2 - Praxian

[Dogboy]

16 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Please continue. This is a rare moment where we have two renowned artists of the Gloranthan world (@Dogboy and @JanPospisil) along with @M Helsdon who has done sterling work on the weaponry and armour of Glorantha and who @Jeff has been using as reference. Moving the thread would break it, contiuning is relevant as the Praxians don't make their own metal weapons an are reliant on foreign traders and what they can steal.

My point is, as far as artwork is concerned, there is no canon. The Guide has plenty of contradictory art, frustratingly so sometimes. Even art specifically commissioned for the books wanders off what is considered "correct" or "canon" (as has been shown, art direction often gets filtered by the artists sensibilities). 

This isn't a criticism of Martin BTW. I think Martin is doing amazing stuff. I may not agree with it all the time, but I wouldn't expect him to like everything I do either. I just think defining art canon is bad way to go. The Guides art are interpretations at best, though some are inspired interpretations.

[Dogboy]

an example (Praxian, to keep it on topic):

We often see the birds eye view of Pavis (not the map, the drawing). It is iconic. It is "canon" (and has been for nearly 40 years).

It is also doesn't make sense, if we consider we are supposed to be in a Bronze Age setting: those walls are so anachronistic IMO, looking like something from Harn rather than Glorantha. it also doesn't really square with how it was described in the text.

Roger Raupp redid them slightly on his amazing River of Cradles cover. Now it reminded me of the castles of the Holy Land, but still not Bronze Age.

Damn, but it was an amazing piece though. Look at how the Zola Felli fish. I so wish we could get Raupp back, his covers were so evocative, and really shaped how I saw Prax.

Jans cover for Pavis, is probably my favourite piece of Gloranthan art.

Of all the art done of Pavis this most sums up how I see it: the colour, the architecture, the teeming masses.
But I image the walls of pavis look more like these:

Edited July 13, 2017 by Dogboy
Needed more Raupp love

[David Scott]

I think we have to differentiate between old Pavis walls - Roger Raup really captured this for me. And new Pavis walls which the last picture captures. The content of the first picture inside the walls is still valid for me. 

[Dogboy]

3 minutes ago, David Scott said:

I think we have to differentiate between old Pavis walls - Roger Raup really captured this for me. And new Pavis walls which the last picture captures. The content of the first picture inside the walls is still valid for me. 

Oh, thank you. That was exactly what I meant. Culturally, the New Pavis walls are too European.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Dogboy

[Byll]

1 hour ago, Dogboy said:

Jans cover for Pavis, is probably my favourite piece of Gloranthan art.

 

Why did they decide to go with the left right mirror image? I guessed it would be something design-y like the direction of the celebrant, the bunting and the smoke being towards the spine instead of away from it. With most of the buildings in shadow it's not immediately obvious but when you look at it for a bit it gradually dawns on you. 

[Dogboy]

it may well be an accident. Maybe Jan Pospisil can shed some light on that.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Dogboy

[Darius West]

On 7/4/2017 at 5:35 AM, metcalph said:

The most surprising statement for me in this section was the appearance of Babeester Gor as a minor deity among the Praxians.  Presumably this refers to the Axe Sisters that once belonged to the cult of Eiritha?

On pages 26-27 of Cults of Prax there is a somewhat cryptic mention of "warrior women of the Earth Cult" in the Travels of Biturian Varosh that subsequent writers have identified as Barbeester Gor axe sisters (in TotRM for example) .  That would tie them to the old Earth worship at the Paps primarily, which makes sense, as they aren't generally seen traveling with specific tribes in Prax.

[JanPospisil]

Could you please rephrase the question, I don't understand what you're asking.

[Dogboy]

3 minutes ago, JanPospisil said:

Could you please rephrase the question, I don't understand what you're asking.

I think he means this:
look at the circled building here:

From the POV of the Pavis cover it should be on the left.

[JanPospisil]

Oh, that sucks. I never noticed this! Looking at my initial sketch, it's the right way (I worked from a 3D model of the city), but in a few WIP phases I flipped the image and kept it mirrored. 

I think I must've liked the composition better that way.

edit: Here's a sketch with Jeff's notes:

Edited July 13, 2017 by JanPospisil

[Byll]

It works very well for illustrating that key bit of that scenario, with the backlighting it's not a big issue. I suppose I was just curious about it having the two-courtyard building (and the Suntown gate towers behind it) looking so familiar but also a bit different.

I've also diverted the thread a bit away from Praxians, so to nudge it back in the right direction can anybody give us s scoop on what the art direction might be for the cover of the forthcoming Prax-sourcebook 

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, Byll said:

can anybody give us s scoop on what the art direction might be for the cover of the forthcoming Prax-sourcebook

For which of the books :-)

If you arrange the back and front covers of the three books around your head you will see a 360 panorama of Prax from the top of the Eiritha Hills:-) Maybe.

Edited July 13, 2017 by David Scott

[Mark Mohrfield]

What is the source for the last three pictures in Dogboy's post above?

[Mark Mohrfield]

I agree about Raupp. That may just be my favorite work of Gloranthan art, which is saying something.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Mark Mohrfield

[M Helsdon]

12 hours ago, Dogboy said:

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was just trying to work out  what you consider canon (I don't consider art as canon. It generally is good for flavour, but changes from book to book), but this is getting off the topic, so just ignore it :D.

It's on topic.

Basically, I assume art in the Guide, HeroQuest: Glorantha, The Coming Storm to be canonical, plus Pavis: GtA, and older sources, such as River of Cradles, Sun County, Dorastor. Even when contradictory: some art is more canonical than other art: it's all down to your point of view.

However, I also assume that the art depicts the interpretation of the artists, much as the art on Etruscan mirrors, Greek vases, Assyrian reliefs, Hittite statues etc. are canonical for the period they were made in, as they would have had to convince the contemporary audience. A great deal of information can be derived from these sources - but they can also be misleading - but, whether they are accurate portrayals, they convey information about the period. They may or may not show weapons, armor and their military usages accurately, but even if wrong, they tell us what the artist and their audience thought was right, even if it was inaccurate! Without visiting the period there is often no better source (Jeff obviously visits Glorantha and brings back sketches).

Similarly, when drawing a sword or an axe (or a mace - work in progress) I attempt the pretense that the item has been shown to me by a Gloranthan authority, though what they know may be in error: a particular piece may be ceremonial, for display, was a parade ground piece, or may have an origin different from what they say. Much the same may be said of many pieces in a museum! Often the labels say what experts believe to be true, but even for the well documented periods our sources are often fragmentary.

Edited July 13, 2017 by M Helsdon

[M Helsdon]

9 hours ago, Dogboy said:

It is also doesn't make sense, if we consider we are supposed to be in a Bronze Age setting: those walls are so anachronistic IMO, looking like something from Harn rather than Glorantha. it also doesn't really square with how it was described in the text.
 

Again, it's a matter of perspective. For something I've been working on, I've taken the picture maps in Pavis: GtA, Sartar: KoH and the Sartar Companion as 'accurate' and attempted to redraw the city gates, influenced by Mycenaean and Anatolian architecture, and by Iron Age brochs and other round towers (because whilst aspects of Glorantha are broadly analogues of terrestrial cultures, they aren't duplications).

So the top image of the square towers found in some Sartarite cities (obviously based on an Esrolian template) is heavily influenced by Near East architecture, but the lower image is not so much. Round towers are found in Pavis and Jonstown. The dual gate and postern doesn't reflect any terrestrial defensive architecture I am aware of, but it doesn't have to. (I am in two minds about the form of the crenulations - but they are a work in progress). The stonework is decidedly cyclopean, but that's down to dwarves and magic...

Edited July 13, 2017 by M Helsdon

[Dogboy]

46 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Jeff obviously visits Glorantha and brings back sketches

He may indeed visit, but he doesn't always understand what he saw.

[g33k]

2 hours ago, Dogboy said:

He may indeed visit, but he doesn't always understand what he saw.

ROFL!

Artists do indeed sometimes see things that others don't... or maybe it's notice... or, as Dogboy says, understand.

 

[Dogboy]

22 hours ago, Mark Mohrfield said:

What is the source for the last three pictures in Dogboy's post above?

Those are from 3 different Osprey Books:
Fortifications of Ancient Egypt, 3000-1780BC
Fortifications of Ancient Israel & Judah, 1200-586BC
Troy, 170-1250BC

20 hours ago, Dogboy said:

He may indeed visit, but he doesn't always understand what he saw.

To be clear, I've worked with several people who have a very good vision of Glorantha, Jeff included. Jeffs vision is amazing, but I feel a singular vision isn't so great for creativity.

[Dogboy]

22 hours ago, Mark Mohrfield said:

I agree about Raupp. That may just be my favorite work of Gloranthan art, which is saying something.

Raupps cover to Shadows on the Borderlands is my favourite RQ cover, Jans' Pavis my fave HQ one.

[soltakss]

It's a picture. Doesn't have to be accurate or realistic.