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Guide to Glorantha Group Read Week 2 - Praxian


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Praxian section comments here!

Main thread: https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6467-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-2/

Week 2 errors: https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6432-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-2-errors/

Here's one of the sketches for the Praxian illustration by Jeff Laubenstein

595a6d5f854aa_Praxians-sketch.thumb.jpg.f44c6ae9342e94232899b86a89c6bc11.jpg

Here's @Jeff's original art direction from 2012:

 

Praxian Overview

The Praxians are a Neolithic nomadic society that ride and herd beasts for their survival. Each tribe is named after the beast ridden by members of the tribe, with the best known being the Bison, the High Llama, the Impala, and the Sable Antelope tribes (no Praxian will herd or ride a horse, considering them to be taboo). Their herd beasts provide everything the Praxians need for life - meat, bone, leather, horn, and felt. All of their metal is imported (or taken) from civilized outsiders. The most common materials are leather, felt, bone, horn, and wood. For longer pieces of wood (such as tepee and travois poles), the Praxians make infrequent trips to the mountains near the Wastes. Skilled, magical crafters make tools and weapons from leather, bone and horn that are nearly as good as those made from metal and wood.

All clothing is made of leather and fur, usually decorated with various types of available natural substances such as porcupine quills, cactus spikes, thorn bush beads, feathers, or hair. Imported clothing (which can be from anywhere, and thus look however you want) is considered a luxury and sign of wealth, especially since the harsh living conditions wear them out so quickly while being worn.

Weapons are a combination of locally produced Stone Age weapons, including bow and arrow, spears and lances, horn axes, and so on, with imported Bronze Age weapons like long spear heads and leaf-shaped swords.

The attached document "Parx-art-samples.pdf" is a good reference for Praxians with classic 1970s artwork by Gene Day and Luise Pirenne.

Page 1. Bison Rider with hide shield, leather helmet (decorated with bison horns), bone chest piece, and painted Bison. The swords are war booty from raiding civilized peoples.

Page 2. High Llama Riders with cured leather cuirass, leather arm protection, hide shield(on back).

Page 3. Sable Rider with sentient baboon sidekick. The Sable Rider's helmet is decorated with antelope horns. The chain mail is either a gift or war booty from civilized outsiders.

Page 4. Sable Rider. Note the quality 1970s heavy metal helmet. :D

Page 5. Bison Riders.

Page 6. Female rulers with implausibly large axes (presumably supposed to be a labyrs) and the leather version of the chainmail bikini. Great example of headresses though.

Page 7. Weird picture showing Praxians from all tribes in battle.

As much as possible, we should try to keep this classic look (just without the ridiculous stuff like the leather bikinis, heavy metal helmets, and gigantic axes).

Fig. 1. High Llama Rider warrior: The High Llama Riders ride Aepycamelus (also called alticamelus), an now extinct species of camelid about 10 feet tall and weighing 1500 to 2000 pounds. Their beasts tower over other Praxian beasts and are able to run down even the swiftest skirmishers. As a result, their warriors are armed with long spears that are used as lances, and long-handled axes to reach down at their foes. The people are tall with olive-covered skin and black hair and eyes. Men and women shave their heads except for a ponytail, with the women's ponytail longer and more decorated than those of the men. They dress lightly, sometimes wearing only leather straps for equipment and a loincloth.

Our male High Llama Rider warrior is a tall, brown-skinned man, with a black queue (ponytail) that has been tied with a leather cord at the top of his head (see picture 2 from "parx-art-samples.pdf). He wears a cured leather cuirass and a loincloth, with leather vambraces and greaves for protection. He carries a long spear with a bronze spear head, and has a long-handled axe with a bronze head (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/35/Combat_axe_Early_Bronze_Age.png), both obtained from civilized outsiders.

Fig. 2: Sable Rider Queen: The Sable Riders ride giant sable antelope (about the size of horses) with long, curving horns. The people have black hair and dark eyes. They wear trousers (made from sable hide) and often a short cloak over their front and back. Wealthy Sable Riders often wear fancy headdresses decorated with Sable horns and bird feathers. Their clans are ruled by Herd Queens, who are also priestesses of the goddess Eiritha, Mother of Beasts. The Sable Riders have the best access to metal weapons and luxuries, as they are often in demand as mercenaries of the rich Lunar Empire.

Our Sable Rider Queen has long black hair held in place with a headdress decorated with Sable horns and gold jewelry from some civilized land. She wears leather leggings and a short cloak. Her clothes are decorated with beads, embroidered designs, and feathers. Her face and skin has been painted with the runes, especially those of Earth, Beast, and Moon. Elaborately decorated leather bags hold magical medicine bundles with which she appeases the goddess of the herds. She carries a Neolithic dagger made from flint (presumably used in sacrifices and rituals) and holds a small stone statue of an animal-headed Mother Goddess.

Art samples PDF not included, but I can direct you to the pics later.

Edited by David Scott
added art direction

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"The women own their tribal animals ... They are responsible for tending the herds ...and for all healing. Men own their captured beasts and are responsible for herding the beasts killing and butchering animals, protecting them from raiders and monsters and for raiding others. Because beasts pass strictly from mothers to daughters, young men usually marry outside their own clan. They raid other clans to capture beasts to give to the young women they woo." P29/30

Women can only 'own' their tribal animals so this suggests that the only beasts that the young men can deliver to them are tribal animals raided from other clans of their tribe. Other beasts could be give to male relatives or converted into meat and given to the young women's families, but this seems a less personal gift. 

I don't understand the causal link between tribal animals only going to daughters and men marrying out of the clan, (unless possibly it is a risk reduction strategy that spreads the clans descendants over the widest number of herd beasts). 

Who gets a man's captured animals on his (perhaps untimely ) death? Perhaps the tribe just slaughters them all as a communal feast remembering the departed, or perhaps they pass to male members of his married out clan.

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51 minutes ago, Byll said:

Women can only 'own' their tribal animals so this suggests that the only beasts that the young men can deliver to them are tribal animals raided from other clans of their tribe. Other beasts could be give to male relatives or converted into meat and given to the young women's families, but this seems a less personal gift. 

So captured beasts fall into two categories.

The first is food. Raided beasts from the other tribes is always are always preferred. If they can't be eaten immediately, you give them to your mother/grandmother/appropriate female relative for safe keeping. They don't own them, but they certainly know how to look after them, before slaughter. Herd men are rarely kept and are always slaughtered (except amongst the Morokanth). As they don't flourish on a vegetarian diet, they must be dealt with quickly. Rescued Herd beasts from your own tribe are gifted to your wife / mother /grandmother /appropriate female relative. These don't normally get eaten. 

The second is dowery. You give raided Herd beasts from other tribes as with food beasts to your mother /grandmother/ appropriate female relative for safe keeping. These don't normally get eaten. Rescued Herd beats from your own tribe are held by your mother /grandmother /appropriate female relative and are given to your new wife when married. These are the second most valuable kind of dowery. The most valuable are those wild herd beasts sent out by Eiritha. The wedding feast is the Herd beasts that the new husband has collected for the dowery. Herd men rarely form part of a dowery outside of the Morokanth as they are slaughtered quickly. Only under special circumstances are herd men kept - clan and tribal Khan/queen marriages, Storm Bull Khan marriages.

Dowry is based on social rank of your future wife's mother (and grandmother if alive. Grandmother counts as half her rank's value.)

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The description of the five Great Tribes of Prax in the Distribution and Subtypes section is a slightly adapted version of the same descriptions in Pavis:Gateway to Adventure. The descriptions of the Independent Tribes in the same section are new. Contrary to the respective section in Pavis:Gateway to Adventure it lists only 8 (instead of 10) of the Independent Tribes. The Ostrich and the Unicorn Women tribes are missing. I’m not sure, if this is a mistake or a deliberate omission. The boxed text about The Herd-Men is from Pavis:Gateway to Adventure too.

The following sections are a merger of the respective information in the Player’s Book from the RuneQuest III box Glorantha: Genertela, Crucible of the Hero Wars and Pavis:Gateway to Adventure, updated and enhanced with one or the other new information.

The numbers in the Praxian Population box are a slight surprise at first sight, as they are much smaller than the respective numbers in the previous Culture description. But a look at the map shows, that the region covered here is also much smaller, so smaller numbers should be expected.

Again a fantastic illustration displaying a High Lama Rider and a Sable Rider Queen. The respective descriptions are very useful in getting an overall impression as well as pointing to some of the details in the illustrations.
“… Her face and skin has been painted with runes, especially those of Earth, Beast, and Moon... “
I can see the earth rune, and I tend to see the triangle on her right cheek as a simplified Beast rune. But where is the Moon rune. On the tip of her nose?

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I had mainly nitpicks about the Praxian clothing (and how the image doesn't reflect much of the text...)

I don't really like that image, it is probably the weakest of the Laubenstein ones. Praxians should be portrayed in the saddle - something the Sable Queen probably can't do in that outfit. Not even if she wears pants beneath that dress. The High Llama tank might be "wearing leather", but then some more, and still some more. Hardly the second-least dressed tribe of the plains

Herd-Men sidebar (p.27): the old canon.

They look exactly like humans, and I would guess that like the Praxian tribesmen, they look like variations of the Wareran race (presumably even the pygmy tribes). Still, we have tribal skin- and body-types for the other tribes, so what about their tone of skin, physique, and manes? (And those of the other Praxians of the minor tribes?)

Praxian slaves – there is a form of oppression left unmentioned here – slaves are expected to walk rather than ride. Male slaves won’t do much of herding, either – they will be put to muscular chores in the camps, maybe some crafting. They’ll be stripped of tribal garment (in case they wore much), too.

Clan queens – so they are a thing in non-Sable Beast Riders, too?

Once more, queen is used as the title for the head earth priestess, I guess.

 

 

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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50 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The most surprising statement for me in this section was the appearance of Babeester Gor as a minor deity among the Praxians.  Presumably this refers to the Axe Sisters that once belonged to the cult of Eiritha?

You can see her here in the Paps societies, https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/4533-the-praxian-tradition/

There aren't many Praxian followers. About 57 in total who come from the following tribes:

Sable 9, impala 15, bison 10, morokanth 10, high llama 8, rhino 2, Pol joni 1 = 55 with a couple of others from some of the other minor tribes.

55 compared to about 250 in Sartar is small, but there's only 1 big earth temple for the Praxians

At least 3/4 are out guarding Earth priestesses, the rest at the Paps.

 

Edited by David Scott
numbers fixed

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23 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I had mainly nitpicks about the Praxian clothing (and how the image doesn't reflect much of the text...)

I don't really like that image, it is probably the weakest of the Laubenstein ones. Praxians should be portrayed in the saddle - something the Sable Queen probably can't do in that outfit. Not even if she wears pants beneath that dress. 

Supposedly, it's some kind of ceremonial, non-mounted garb, and not the everyday outfit?

I had an issue with the weapons instead - they're very much "fantasy weapons". Both the axehead and the spearhead are huge! And the triple spikes at the back don't seem to serve any obvious purpose (a single spike is for armor-piercing).

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1 minute ago, Akhôrahil said:

Both the axehead and the spearhead are huge! And the triple spikes at the back don't seem to serve any obvious purpose

As Praxians must raid or trade for metal weapons, there's likely to be a market for useless stuff that looks cool. Until it doesn't work in battle...

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Is it supposed to be some sort of hybrid sword-spear? His mount is supposed to be too high to reach sable/Impala riders or morocanth - maybe he can slash with it as well as impale. Apaecameli browse from trees, maybe the three spikes are for sticking into a tree trunk to assist the rider clambering in and out to cut forage from higher branches. Could be difficult to extract again though, whereas you can get a fairly good contact with the axe blade, and still be able to lever it out afterwards.

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8 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Supposedly, it's some kind of ceremonial, non-mounted garb, and not the everyday outfit?

I had an issue with the weapons instead - they're very much "fantasy weapons". Both the axehead and the spearhead are huge! And the triple spikes at the back don't seem to serve any obvious purpose (a single spike is for armor-piercing).

If it is indeed ceremonial, I can see the "fantasy" weapons being the same -- having cultural or Cultic symbolism.

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The Praxian section was the most familiar to me. Of all the areas of the Guide I worked on, the Praxians and the Wastes were the most. It's here had we put in the start of Greg's visions for Prax. The first major one being that herd men were omnivores not vegetarians. But yes again it's a view from 30000' so much couldn't be added. I really like the Morokanth picture, it was the inspiration for the batons that Waha khans often carry (See HeroQuest Glorantha).

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

Clan queens – so they are a thing in non-Sable Beast Riders, too?

Yes, the Queen is the (first) wife of a Clan or Tribal Khan. They don't have to be a High Priestess, but are often priestesses:

Quote

Among the tribes of the Sable and Morokanth she [Eiritha] is more revered than other deities, and her High Priestesses are also the ruling queens of the tribes.

Other Khan's (who are not the Tribal or Clan khan) wives maybe referred to as queens if they are not priestesses. This is purely an honorary title and every one knows that. 

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I love the Morokanth art on p.26 too.

On p.27, we start with a reference to Morokanth (1st para) living off humans. This isn't correct though, is it? As it says in the box at bottom right, it's herd-men that Morokanth live off, not humans.

Also on p.27, it seems a bit odd to me that the Agimori are specifically described as not depending on their herd animals for sustenance, but presumably they're not the only ones in this boat - the baboons and Cannibal Cult too, no? It made me wonder whether the Basmoli eat their lions, the Bolo Lizard folk eat their lizards, etc.

The map on p.27 shows Pentan culture, but Pentans are not referenced anywhere in this section on Prax apart from very briefly at the bottom of the second column of p.30.

The p.28/p.29 art/description mismatch here (see my notes on the Hsunchen for my introduction to this issue) is the Sable Queen being described as having a flint dagger. That doesn't look like what my mind conjures up as a "flint dagger", i.e. one made out of a whole flint. Perhaps a flint-encrusted dagger? Because it seems to have a whole load of flint flakes embedded in it. Also, I don't think that the High Llama rider's axe looks like one designed for us from a tall animal. The size of the axe head and the balancing (he's not holding it at the end of the handle, as you can see) doesn't make it look like it will reach very far down, unlike the description on p.26 ("long-handled axes to reach the earth").

Sorry, this wasn't meant to be a "complaining" post, but this section raised almost as many questions as answers for me.

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The independent tribes are included in this section even though many of them are quite culturally distinct.

The description of the Men-And-A-Half here is more complete than in Pavis, and confirms that they are a significant departure from the human norm - not just big and strong, but requiring less sustenance. In RQ they were a little fireproof too. The question is, do they still exist in Pamaltela? Presumably there they would be a separate tribe who revere Balumbasta (who I'm presuming is the same as Baba Ulodr). 

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8 hours ago, davecake said:

The description of the Men-And-A-Half here is more complete than in Pavis, and confirms that they are a significant departure from the human norm - not just big and strong, but requiring less sustenance. In RQ they were a little fireproof too. The question is, do they still exist in Pamaltela? Presumably there they would be a separate tribe who revere Balumbasta (who I'm presuming is the same as Baba Ulodr). 

Asking the Great Old Ones at various Tentacles, the answer was yes, there are Men-And-A-Half left in the veldt, but they are a minority, outbred by those who took to drinking like normal humans.

In a way, the MAAH are similar to the Brithini, subject to strict behaviour limits to avoid losing their closeness to the Agitorani. I wonder whether this is a strict ascetic order which elevates them through generations of adhering to this behaviour rather than preventing the slide to normalcy from a nearly non-drinker status.

Sandy Petersen maintains that the non-drinker Agitorani are the (morally) weak and cowardly of the original folk. The MAAH don't quite fit this picture - the Praxian ones regard themselves as the elite of their war god.

On the question of the identity of their god in Prax, I wonder whether they have a strong link to the planet Tolat, whose god is notably absent from the Pamaltelan pantheon even though we know that he was active there during the early Artmali Empire (but not in the defence of the Artmali empire against Vovisibor).

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12 hours ago, davecake said:

The description of the Men-And-A-Half here is more complete than in Pavis, and confirms that they are a significant departure from the human norm - not just big and strong, but requiring less sustenance. In RQ they were a little fireproof too. The question is, do they still exist in Pamaltela? Presumably there they would be a separate tribe who revere Balumbasta (who I'm presuming is the same as Baba Ulodr). 

They do.  But in Laskal rather than the Veldt!

Quote

Deshmador (small city):  [...] The inhabitants claim to be pureblooded descendants of the original Man and Woman, and they stand taller than most men (although they claim their ancestors were taller still and needed neither water
nor food). They are ruled by a gerontocracy of family heads, the eldest of whom is the ruler and called the Baba Kroos. They revile Garangordos as a devil.

Guide p560

 

 

Quote

Oron (small city): The Rock of Oron has been inhabited since ancient times. The inhabitants, who are strikingly tall like the people of the Zuama river valley, claim that their ancestors sailed off in the Gods War to fight Bolongo after he fled Pamalt. Ruins of a much greater city litter the coast near Oron.

Guide p569

 

Quote

Zuama River: This river rises high in the Mari Mountains and drains the Moino Jungle. It meanders through eastern Laskal, forming a rich alluvial plain between the jungle and the sea. The people here tend to be significantly taller than other Fonritians.

Guide p573

 

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1 hour ago, Joerg said:

On the question of the identity of their god in Prax, I wonder whether they have a strong link to the planet Tolat, whose god is notably absent from the Pamaltelan pantheon even though we know that he was active there during the early Artmali Empire (but not in the defence of the Artmali empire against Vovisibor).

The Red Planet is known to the Doraddi as the celestial home of Balumbasta (Guide p647)

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Even if there is an equivalent to the Praxian Agimori in Pamaltela, the Praxians have diverged even further from their southern brethren. In order that they could reproduce, after a long quest, Baba Ulodra was helped to do so by Ernalda. She is now as tenuous as he in the Wastelands. There are a couple of Ernalda Priestesses at the Paps. Foundchild is their main god. 

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6 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Even if there is an equivalent to the Praxian Agimori in Pamaltela, the Praxians have diverged even further from their southern brethren. In order that they could reproduce, after a long quest, 

The most surprising divergence is that the southern Brethern were city-dwellers.  I really see the migration of the Men-and-a-half as being one large migration - not just their mythical ancestors but also the people of Thinobutu and related lands.  After a trek that took the many peoples through Loral (whose descendants were eaten by the Monsters), Teleos (whose descendants underwent some chromatic change - the Guide p523 says they seem similar to the Agimori) and possibly Churanpur and Teshnos, the Men-and-a-half are IMO the only survivors of that migration who survived the great battles at the end of it.

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3 hours ago, metcalph said:

The most surprising divergence is that the southern Brethern were city-dwellers.  

Isn't this one of the cases of We Tried That Already in the Doraddi section? The Doraddi had Tishamto, an urban culture, during the rise of the Artmali Empire, and I see little evidence of the Artmali destroying those cities. The Praxian MAAH would have come from this urban culture, too - their warrior elite.

 

Quote

I really see the migration of the Men-and-a-half as being one large migration - not just their mythical ancestors but also the people of Thinobutu and related lands.  

I agree that there was a second Age of migrations (after the first migration of the Mountain Peoples families to the four camps), but I don't see them as a single migration group.

Borderlands and Beyond has the long RQ2 write-up of the Men-and-a-Half (p.31):

Quote

When chaos appeared and threatened the world, Lodril answered the call to battle. He gathered the Agimori together and led them north and east to Vithela. After many adventures, a much-depleted nation crossed a now-vanished land bridge into Fethlon. They then turned west to Prax, to fight chaos in Lodril’s name.

North and East to Vithela - that means past the Yellow Elf Jungle, presumably bypassing the Jhostrobbios jungle of Dinal, confessed to be untouched by any outside influence. My guess is to the southeast, because of the ancient enmity between the aldryami and the Agimori.

They needed to cross at least the Sshorg river on their trek there.

The land bridge mentioned is Abzered, whose sinking (or rather, the not sinking of the surviving parts in Teshnos) is tied to Tolat and his sword.

 

Quote

After a trek that took the many peoples through Loral (whose descendants were eaten by the Monsters), Teleos (whose descendants underwent some chromatic change - the Guide p523 says they seem similar to the Agimori) and possibly Churanpur and Teshnos, the Men-and-a-half are IMO the only survivors of that migration who survived the great battles at the end of it.

I would expect the Agimori to pass most of Fethlon (another hostile, yellow elf forest) through the lowlands between Melib and the mainland, now flooded.

I wondered about the Teleosi, too, and I am with you in giving them a migration history that may have touched Loral. While the Fonritians clearly recognize a racial difference between the Garangordite, Doraddi-descended immigrants and the dark-skinned folk of Thinokos (and Kimos, Maslo and Kumanku), they still are labeled as Agimori racial type. Those types (which are also applied to the Hsunchen of the continent) aren't defined by direct ancestry.

Looking at their distribution, I would expect a greater similarity between Pamaltelan Fiwan Hsunchen and Masloi than between the Fiwan and the Doraddi. Their creation stories share more similarities than those of the southern folk (Hoolar, Jelmre, Pelmre and Agitorani).

This makes me inclined to have the Teleon folk - all of whom are of normal size - of mostly Thinobutan ancestry rather than having ties to the Men-and-a-Half. They might have some Artmali admixture, but that goes for the Thinobutans as a whole. Waertagi admixture would be more recent, and limited to Maslo.

So, yes to a migration of coastal Agimori not just into the west but also into the northeast, but no to a Men-and-a-Half ancestry (even in extreme dilution) for the Teleons. Also because of the well documented breeding problems of the Men-and-a-Half. I don't see any chance for finding any half-breed descendants of the Men-and-a-Half anywhere outside the Doraddi-descended lands, and even there extremely rare. Not that bachelor warriors would absolutely abstain from intimacy with local women, but those wouldn't be magically eligible for conception.

Borderlands and Beyond again:

Quote

Ernalda revealed to the tribe that they must first, in order to reproduce, take into themselves the antithesis of their natures. Before any Agimori could conceive, he and she would have to drink untainted water to counteract their dry natures.

Note the requirement for untainted water.

It strikes me as fairly funny that the archetypical phallic deity is at a loss how to make children. What did his followers do with their phalli before?

Edited by Joerg
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16 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Note the requirement for untainted water.

It strikes me as fairly funny that the archetypical phallic deity is at a loss how to make children. What did his followers do with their phalli before?

You are confusing sex and procreation. You can have sex without procreation. Mythically you can have procreation without sex (the Six Earth Queens). So, Agimori could stick it in and wiggle it about, but the burning fire that resulted burnt away any chance of procreation. The water puts out the fire enough to allow procreation.

Of course, Lodril, being the archettypical phallic deity, quite happily reproduced, his control of fire was presumably better than his children's. 

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18 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Lodril answered the call to battle. He gathered the Agimori together and led them north and east to Vithela. After many adventures, a much-depleted nation crossed a now-vanished land bridge into Fethlon. They then turned west to Prax, to fight chaos in Lodril’s name

This is a great thread and this is the exposed gold. Whoever tells this story as being about "Lodrilites" might tell other stories about "Lodrili." Maybe they tried the plow already too and were drawn into the wars of the northern continent through contacts with neighboring civilizations. They may have diminished in the south and all the names have changed, but that's where it was before the last of their ways was absorbed into the Dara Happan underclass.

As for water and phallic deities (Pamalt the spear), this is probably another of those tantric references that haunt the lozenge. Before the lodril initiation their braves just know how to make it hot, or something.

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2 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Isn't this one of the cases of We Tried That Already in the Doraddi section? The Doraddi had Tishamto, an urban culture, during the rise of the Artmali Empire, and I see little evidence of the Artmali destroying those cities. The Praxian MAAH would have come from this urban culture, too - their warrior elite.

No.  Tishamto lay east of the Nargan.  There's another urban civilization - Bodenen ma Tama "the ruins of the sun"  in Kothar p595 which is practically unknown to the Doraddi of Jolar.  The Zuama culture lay north of the Fensi would have been even more out of sight, out of mind to the Doraddi.  "We Tried That Already" tales are listed for places within Jolar (Where Men Always Fart, Moving Sands and Banini Lake).  

Secondly the Artmali did conquer Tishamto whereupon it was destroyed by Pamalt in the Firefall.  It doesn't fit the nature of the "We Tried That Already" in which the flaw is apparent as soon as they tried that.

 

2 minutes ago, Joerg said:

 

I agree that there was a second Age of migrations (after the first migration of the Mountain Peoples families to the four camps), but I don't see them as a single migration group.

The first migration of the Mountain Peoples is a God Learner fiction unworthy of attention.   The relevant passage on Borderlands and Beyond does make it clear that it was a migration to fight chaos which suggests a large horde rather than successive waves.  The Pithdarans also came in a single migration for what it's worth.,

 

 

2 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I wondered about the Teleosi, too, and I am with you in giving them a migration history that may have touched Loral. While the Fonritians clearly recognize a racial difference between the Garangordite, Doraddi-descended immigrants and the dark-skinned folk of Thinokos (and Kimos, Maslo and Kumanku), they still are labeled as Agimori racial type. Those types (which are also applied to the Hsunchen of the continent) aren't defined by direct ancestry.

The Gargandites are not descended from the Doraddi.  They are an Agimori nation who have their roots in Laskal.  The Doraddi have their roots in Kothar at the Dawn and expanded westwards.  Doraddi is not and should not be considered a synonym for Agimori.

 

2 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Looking at their distribution, I would expect a greater similarity between Pamaltelan Fiwan Hsunchen and Masloi than between the Fiwan and the Doraddi. Their creation stories share more similarities than those of the southern folk (Hoolar, Jelmre, Pelmre and Agitorani).

Stylistically I would avoid throwing labels together.  The Fiwan are Hsunchen who live in Pamaltela so there's little point in referring to them as the Pamaltelan Fiwan Hsunchen.  Since we don't have Fiwan creation tales, I doubt that one can say that their creation stories have more similarities between them and the Masloi as opposed to the Doraddi.  If anything, I would expect the Veldt Fiwan to have similar creation tales to the Doraddi and the coastal Fiwan (Maslo and Laskalians) to have similar creation tales to the Thinobutans and Coastal Agimori).

 

2 minutes ago, Joerg said:

This makes me inclined to have the Teleon folk - all of whom are of normal size - of mostly Thinobutan ancestry rather than having ties to the Men-and-a-Half. They might have some Artmali admixture, but that goes for the Thinobutans as a whole. Waertagi admixture would be more recent, and limited to Maslo.

The Teleono can have Men-and-a-Half ancestry quite easily ("in the old days, our forefathers were much taller and didn't need to drink water").  Just because they don't have those traits now does not mean that their ancestors never ever had them.

 

2 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Also because of the well documented breeding problems of the Men-and-a-Half. I don't see any chance for finding any half-breed descendants of the Men-and-a-Half anywhere outside the Doraddi-descended lands, and even there extremely rare. Not that bachelor warriors would absolutely abstain from intimacy with local women, but those wouldn't be magically eligible for conception.

Again this is a leap too far.  The problem for the Men-and-a-half was to have children AND to retain their great height.  They weren't incapable of reproduction. I would go so far as to suggest that the Impala people are descendants of the Men-and-a-half (they have dark skins and fire rune kinship for example).  Their ancestors were men-and-a-half who decided to abandon completely their traditional discipline to have drink water and have lots of kids.  As a result they became very small.  Then came the Great Darkness after which they took up the survival covenant which obliterated the magical potency of their ancestral relations to the Men-and-a-half.

 

2 minutes ago, Joerg said:

It strikes me as fairly funny that the archetypical phallic deity is at a loss how to make children. What did his followers do with their phalli before?

One could borrow from the Old Testament and have a myth about ripping out their penis bones to make mates for themselves.

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3 minutes ago, soltakss said:

You are confusing sex and procreation. You can have sex without procreation.

Sure, mundane Gloranthans can do so. Mythically, sex was invented to re-integrate the original male who was separate from all fertility. I haven't seen any Gloranthan cultural equivalent for Ringworld's Ri-shatra.

Sure, there are Zoria. But these cities are about fertility, and fertility is about offspring. 

 

3 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Mythically you can have procreation without sex (the Six Earth Queens).

Absolutely. Parthogenesis isn't restricted to that myth, it is also part of what Tilnta is about. There is a reason why all those elemental and place spirits are female.

 

3 minutes ago, soltakss said:

So, Agimori could stick it in and wiggle it about, but the burning fire that resulted burnt away any chance of procreation. The water puts out the fire enough to allow procreation.

It is the water that makes volcanic eruptions so explosive...

The presence of female Agimori in the expedition is noteworthy anyway - a significant difference from the Men of the Log story of Wendaria.

 

3 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Of course, Lodril, being the archettypical phallic deity, quite happily reproduced, his control of fire was presumably better than his children's. 

Yeah, Lodril, the god of control. Lodril's interactions with goddesses reliably create offspring, like e.g. Vangono.

There is a difference between the Men-and-a-Half and the Doraddi - the absence of plant lineages. This may have to do with the decline of Ernalda, or it may be an indication that they left before Dorad experienced death.

Their description in Borderlands and Beyond doesn't mention any female role. There are exactly three times that the female pronoun is used, once "both he and she must drink" and twice about adoptees. Either the Men-and-a-Half are the most egalitarian folk anywhere on Glorantha, or that text is missing something major.

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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