Guide to Glorantha Group Read Week 10 - Fronela & Loskalm

[David Scott]

Fronela and the Kingdom of Loskalm section discussion here!

Don't forget Colin Driver's epic maps and the artwork.

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6694-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-10/

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6695-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-10-deep-discussion/

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6663-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-10-errors/

I was chatting to Jeff about the Syndics Ban and wouldn't it be cool to have a map showing when the thaw came to each area. That would have been difficult until I said why don't we use Greg's map. The reply was of course - there isn't one. I said - But I have one from Greg - don't you have it? It transpires that over the years Greg has communicated / worked with dozens of people. If we're lucky you have a piece of Glorantha that's been lost. Here's the copy of an overlay to one of Greg's maps that I had. Colin had to correct it to fit with the accurate Guide maps.

Edited August 30, 2017 by David Scott
Added Syndics Ban map

[Joerg]

Fronela suffers from a few too well known names from beyond Glorantha.

Turandot, priestess in Melekaros in central Fronela: Nessun Dorma?
The Persian poem is about a Russian princess, which makes central Fronela more appropriate than Puccini’s Chinese version seems to suggest.
I note King Turan II of Jonatela (p.224), so the "Turan-Dokht" (daughter of Turan) might actually work.

Fir Bolg in Loskalm? (ok, Firbolks… p.208, Jarinsland)

Bishop Hatto’s Mouse Tower (p.212)...

 

But first a few other observations.

Ozur Bay is about as wide as the North Sea between East Anglia and Belgium, or Skagerak and Kattegat south of the Oslo Fjord. That's quite a gap for a "continuous" kingdom, and there would have been only the straits (Golden Gate) where naval contact between north and south would have been feasible. And still risking to get under the influence of the Closing.

 

p.201: The Rathori thrived? They slept! If someone in Rathorela thrived, it would have been the aldryami or the minority hsunchen. Unless all of the land slept.

p.205: Twin demons of Concord: I learned a new Spanish word: Pendejo. And I hope never to find demons spelled Greoj or Retragmuab in an official Glorantha publication...

 

Gods of Fronela:

Plenty of discoveries, starting with Croesa on p.206, apparently worshiped already when Varganthar established his palace there, followed hot on the heels by menhir-building King Drona (in Dorsomon, and further east again, with more details, and without the name but recognizable through his boar companion in Thantom, p.211.)

 

Himtals: an Enjoreli citadel. Like the Enerali and the Pendali, the Enjoreli were city-builders. I wonder whether this is in part an inheritance from Kachisti refugees among their numbers.

 

Combining the folk of King Drona (with their Seshnegi appearance) and the menhirs also mentioned for the Enjoreli along Karmadon Valley, assuming this Kachasti identification of King Drona gets a few more points.

 

The Noyalings of southern Tastolar could have deserved a small boxed text. Semi-nomadic musk ox herders and hunter-gatherers, builders of hill forts (though apparently not of the megalithic tombs of Agnost, which may harken back to King Drona).

 

Skut Island (Alcatraz): Loydam the Green and the six sons of Skut dueled, and apparently all found their death (counting the cairns). Godtime heroes?

Spada: is it intentional that the foreign hero Avalor lost the second a in the Fronelan text? His appearance here explains a lot about the abductors of his wife. Into the Wastes… and way beyond.

Horned giant guardians/guardian giants: One in Tarins, one in Easval. Anywhere else?

Is there a king list for Fronela or at least Loskalm? For the Third Age I found Orvmat, Orval (brother of Snodal), Siglat, Ampral, Gundreken

[metcalph]

P200 - There's a tension in the text at various places concerning the Ban.  The text box at p200 says that Snodal's Ghost was spoken to.  The Timeline on p141 says that Snodal and his companions disappear.  The text on p145 speaks of Snodal and his companions returning to find that disaster has befallen their lands.  The description for the city of Ease has Snodal's tomb.  Now this isn't new to the Guide (I noticed it long ago in the Genertela Book) and there may be some simple and elegant solution.  But the apparent answer that I get (Snodal returns to Loskalm, dies, is buried in his tomb but the body then disappears before being contacted by magic) isn't pretty.

p201 - (Map) the Swamp at the mouth of the Sweet Sea is curiously unaffected by the Ban.

p204 - (picture) Meriatan is wearing a curiously ornate suit of armour for a devout mystic.

p205 - (sidebar) Meriatan and Gundreken have an interesting history together.

p208 - Two God Learner dynasties ruled in Frontem?  The records speak of the Adalla family who provide the first and last kings (as one who put down a Perfecti revolt).  So who is the other? 

p210 - Omphis has a severed head symbolism that is awfully reminscient of Thanatar.  Although it could be a retelling of Gawain and the Green Knight.

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

P200 - There's a tension in the text at various places concerning the Ban.  The text box at p200 says that Snodal's Ghost was spoken to.  The Timeline on p141 says that Snodal and his companions disappear.  The text on p145 speaks of Snodal and his companions returning to find that disaster has befallen their lands.  The description for the city of Ease has Snodal's tomb.  Now this isn't new to the Guide (I noticed it long ago in the Genertela Book) and there may be some simple and elegant solution.  But the apparent answer that I get (Snodal returns to Loskalm, dies, is buried in his tomb but the body then disappears before being contacted by magic) isn't pretty.

I guess now it is my turn to say that this isn't such a great deal.

Snodal and his companions go on their heroquest and slay the God of the Silver Feet. From the way his band is described, I would guess that it was a band of heroquesters from different parts of Fronela.- Irensavalist Loskalm doesn't sound like it would have had priests, and other city states north of the Janube would have been threatened by the White Bear Empire, too.

I am not sure whether Snodal had told them about the map he saw in the Altinelan library, or whether he suggested this joint venture as a strike against the unity of the White Bear Empire. (The latter surely succeeded, beyond expectations...)

The mention of his tomb indicates a burial there and not just an empty casket, so we can assume that his body either never left Ease during the quest (which would be possible if the questers started in a way similar to the Orlanthi holy day mountain flight).

After slaying the God of the Silver Feet, their return to their bodies probably was as much sabotaged as the land of Fronela. They may have been returned as ghosts, caught in the misty borders between the fragments of Fronela and realizing the effect their deeds had on the land. Their lifeless bodies would have been buried (or cremated, or whichever rite was appropriate).

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

p201 - (Map) the Swamp at the mouth of the Sweet Sea is curiously unaffected by the Ban.

I interpreted this as the Sweet Sea shore belonging to Peloria rather than Fronela. The Sweet Sea has a history of altering the extent of its shores, and maybe this swamp-lands are within the border that the Ban refered to.

Another possibility is that the Sweet Sea shrunk when it lost its connection to the adjacent Fronelan lands.

The flow of water down the Janube during the Ban brings up an interesting question whether the river really was a continuous water or whether some heroplane river emptied from one misty border into the river bed and left into the misty border on the other side. Did people send messages in a bottle? Did any such messages wind up anywhere?

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

 

p205 - (sidebar) Meriatan and Gundreken have an interesting history together.

Most interesting here is that apparently this is entirely accepted behavior for Loskalmi nobility and warriors.

At the same time, Snodal's professed marital fidelity to a woman that had aged forty years when he himself emerged maybe five years aged since his departure is a major point in the bits of Snodal's saga as offered by the Guide. Marital fidelity is expected. Does this pertain just to the other sex?

But then we have no idea about Gundreken's marital status.

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

p208 - Two God Learner dynasties ruled in Frontem?  The records speak of the Adalla family who provide the first and last kings (as one who put down a Perfecti revolt).  So who is the other? 

Could there have been separate dynasties for northern and southern Frontem? The description of Northpoint says:

Quote

In the Second Age, Northpoint was the northern capital of Frontem, until it was destroyed by the God Learners during Janerndal’s Rebellion

Janerndal revolted in 943, which means that Northpoint was used by the God Learner faction. His might have been the other God Learner dynasty, a rebellion against the decadent Emperors rather than against the God Learner movement. 

Isefwal is specifically mentioned as having been replaced by Panosket/Southpoint.

 

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

p210 - Omphis has a severed head symbolism that is awfully reminscient of Thanatar.  Although it could be a retelling of Gawain and the Green Knight.

I am more reminded of Eurmal's Remove Body Part feat. In Fronela Eurmal is seen as the Friend of Man, a cultural hero.

[metcalph]

9 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Janerndal revolted in 943, which means that Northpoint was used by the God Learner faction. His might have been the other God Learner dynasty, a rebellion against the decadent Emperors rather than against the God Learner movement. 

Merely because Northpoint is described as a northern capital doesn't mean a dynasty ruled in each place (the name Beijing literally means Northern Capital as opposed to the Southern Capital of Nanjing).  If the two dynasties ruled in different places, then they would be buried at different places rather than at the same place.  By naming alone, Eastpoint would be the Eastern Capital but there's no need for a third God Learner dynasty there.

 

9 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I am more reminded of Eurmal's Remove Body Part feat. In Fronela Eurmal is seen as the Friend of Man, a cultural hero.

There's many different faces of Eurmal as a look at the Sartar Companion indicates.  Just because Eurmal is worshipped in Fronela does not mean that all of Eurmal's magic will be known there.  The epithet Friend of Men suggests a Firebringer (Sartar Companion p258) and I fail to see how Hrestol becomes an Eurmali.

[metcalph]

26 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Irensavalist Loskalm doesn't sound like it would have had priests,

Not disputing the pan-Fronelan nature of the Syndics, Loskalm did have Amlaria the Priestess whose grave is at Midtasker (She fought alongside Svenlos who is a colleague of Snodal but not one of the Syndics).  Second you are confusing Loskalm as it is now with what Loskalm was like before the Ban fell.  I doubt that it was so doctrinally uniform then.

 

26 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The mention of his tomb indicates a burial there and not just an empty casket, so we can assume that his body either never left Ease during the quest (which would be possible if the questers started in a way similar to the Orlanthi holy day mountain flight).

But the Timeline says he and his companions disappeared.  Not that their souls left their bodies on a heroquest.

 

26 minutes ago, Joerg said:

They may have been returned as ghosts, caught in the misty borders between the fragments of Fronela and realizing the effect their deeds had on the land.

The way that their return is written implies that they have returned alive and whole to their lands to find disaster.  Which conflicts with the brief statement that they disappeared or that people only spoke to the Syndics as ghosts after the event. 

 

[David Scott]

17 hours ago, Joerg said:

Fronela suffers from a few too well known names from beyond Glorantha.

Well it was Greg's first exploration of Glorantha, likely drawing on what he knew without thinking of the audience 50 years later.

[jrutila]

Fronela is an area with civilized folks struggling with native nomads and barbarian clans. The syndics ban gives the whole area an interesting history and exploration of its effect on people would create lots of stories. The lack of Lunar influence in most parts (if I got it correctly) is also refreshing at this point.

The effect of the ban on Kingdom of Loskalm is that they were safe and now they have to deal with the outer world that is coming to break their perfect system. In Avalon Hill Glorantha books there was a back-cover image of a heavy armor plated soldier on a horse. I think it was meant to be from Loskalm (or somewhere else in Fronela). The Fronela in the Guide is not that "medieval", but if you want to see the most medievalist area in Glorantha, you should probably head to Kingdom of Loskalm.

 

[Steve]

On 30/08/2017 at 11:01 AM, David Scott said:

Well it was Greg's first exploration of Glorantha, likely drawing on what he knew without thinking of the audience 50 years later.

Sure, but it wouldn't have been too much of a stretch for some of this to have been "Gregged". I cringed when I read about "Egnarps" and "Ojedneps" on p.205. Doesn't fit Glorantha, sorry.

[Jeff]

Those were two terrible demons who threatened the cosmos itself. Siglat had every right to mark that triumph. 

[Stew Stansfield]

1 hour ago, Steve said:

Sure, but it wouldn't have been too much of a stretch for some of this to have been "Gregged". I cringed when I read about "Egnarps" and "Ojedneps" on p.205. Doesn't fit Glorantha, sorry.

Can I ask what made you cringe, Steve? My eyebrows rose a touch mischievously, though that's perhaps on account of reading too many Zatanna comics.

[jajagappa]

7 hours ago, jrutila said:

In Avalon Hill Glorantha books there was a back-cover image of a heavy armor plated soldier on a horse. I think it was meant to be from Loskalm (or somewhere else in Fronela). The Fronela in the Guide is not that "medieval", but if you want to see the most medievalist area in Glorantha, you should probably head to Kingdom of Loskalm.

During the Avalon Hill era, the western parts of Glorantha took a decided medieval turn which was not, I believe, part of the original conception.  So we got saints and knights and churches and other later medieval trappings.  The Guide has moved us back away from that view.

Of course, Loskalm is still a land dominated by the Invisible God, so clearly an area of monotheism vs. the pantheons of central Genertela.  But you could just as readily draw on the monotheistic background of the Old Testament vs. that of medieval Europe.

7 hours ago, jrutila said:

The effect of the ban on Kingdom of Loskalm is that they were safe and now they have to deal with the outer world that is coming to break their perfect system.

Yes, the isolated Utopia has been shattered, and now it must respond to that outer world.

[Steve]

27 minutes ago, Quackatoa said:

Can I ask what made you cringe, Steve? My eyebrows rose a touch mischievously, though that's perhaps on account of reading too many Zatanna comics.

It might just be me, but the text immediately said "backwards" to my brain, and that was confirmed when I read it that way. I don't recall anything else like this in Glorantha (though I could be missing something). It just doesn't "feel" like Glorantha to me, where everything else has names which seem to fit.

[Stew Stansfield]

Just now, Steve said:

It might just be me, but the text immediately said "backwards" to my brain, and that was confirmed when I read it that way. I don't recall anything else like this in Glorantha (though I could be missing something). It just doesn't "feel" like Glorantha to me, where everything else has names which seem to fit.

Ah, sorry, yep, we're on the same page. I was just wondering if I'd missed anything.

(No, not really a fan myself, either.)

[Steve]

On a more positive note, this is the very first time that I've ever read anything detailed about Fronela and Loskalm (and even then, of course it's just a very high level overview in the Guide). And I love it! Something about Fronela and Loskalm really makes me want to learn a lot more about the area(s), game in it, and generally immerse myself in it and soak it all up.

 

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, Steve said:

It might just be me, but the text immediately said "backwards" to my brain, and that was confirmed when I read it that way. I don't recall anything else like this in Glorantha (though I could be missing something). It just doesn't "feel" like Glorantha to me, where everything else has names which seem to fit.

There was the governor of Heortland, Nitrams de Okechep, in History of the Heortling People. (Turns out that Pacheco is place near Concord...)

Basically, this is a whimsy of Greg, interweaving his own experiences with the history of his creation. There are a couple such references, starting with the place names on the game boards of White Bear and Red Moon and Nomad Gods which are derived from friends and co-workers. While Wilms Church (later Wilmskirk), Jonstown and Swenstown don't even cause slight irritation and some names like the Pairing Stones commemorating Steve Perrin have been adapted so well nobody not privy to this information will recognize this, some names like "Christian's Bay" (due to the promise to name a feature after the firstborn of friends, not knowing that that name would be Christian) have been politely forgotten since.

[davecake]

So why did the Eleven Beasts Alliance, who are all hsunchen, encourage clans to worship the Lightbringers?

i can understand the later embrace of Nysalor, but the Lightbringers seems counter intuitive. 

[metcalph]

3 hours ago, davecake said:

So why did the Eleven Beasts Alliance, who are all hsunchen, encourage clans to worship the Lightbringers?

i can understand the later embrace of Nysalor, but the Lightbringers seems counter intuitive. 

My understanding is that the Fronelan Hsunchen (like many others) at the time were incomplete, they didn't have a fully fledged religion that provided the answers for everything.  The classic Hsunchen culture as presented in the Guide and elsewhere is largely a product of God Learners trying to indentify their mythic origins.

[Joerg]

I blame Kachisti pollution. Almost all the Hykimi (the Hsunchen of western Genertela) and especially the dominant cultures of the Pendali, Enerali and Enjoreli were city builders or at least lords over cities. Other Hykimi like the Telmori had at least temple cities with a small permanent occupation.

Only Rathori and Pralori manage to form empires without giving up their Hsunchen existence, and I have the impression that this is only true for the northern Rathori, with Jonatela being the Theyalanized ones.

[davecake]

Croesium - formed where a fragment of the moon fell in God Time. This is presumably a fragment of the Blue Moon? The goddess Croesia does not seem a known part of any other moon mythology. 

The possible link to Varganthyr the unconquerable is interesting. 

[davecake]

Eeontree - it's interesting that the Great Trees are normally, due to being deep in the forest, inaccessible to non-Aldryami. But one of the Great Trees of the Erontree (the 'brown' deciduous one) is directly accessible as a stop on the Imperial Highway. 

[davecake]

Omphis - the severed head symbolism doesn't make me jump to either Thanatar or Eurmal, but it does seem a nice symbol of transcendence of mortality. 

The 'each teacher has complete autonomy' aspect is a useful story hook for stories of corrupt or problematic sorcerous lineages of all kinds though. 

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

Eeontree - it's interesting that the Great Trees are normally, due to being deep in the forest, inaccessible to non-Aldryami. But one of the Great Trees of the Erontree (the 'brown' deciduous one) is directly accessible as a stop on the Imperial Highway. 

The Great Trees aren't shown in the map, the plant runes simply denote elf populations. Erontree has only a single Great Tree - no idea of what kind. Do Great Trees have recognizable species (as found among normal trees) or cladistic associations at all?

[davecake]

The Unicorn King of Huntwood - compare the Monoceros in Anaxials Roster

[davecake]

haha I knew there was at least one more 'backwards name' somewhere - the MSE on page 39, in the Giorgos text, is a rebuttal of the mistaken beliefs of Gerfej snd Drachir, cleaely unrelated to anyone in this discussion thread....